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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Unwritten - I just re-read your post and I think that what I could do is ask "Is there anything else I should know that you haven't been radically open and honest about?" That should cover any secrets, yes?

In my opinion, this is a pretty vague question that leaves plenty of room for him blowing it off. Technically you are correct, but I don't know that it's a question that will bring radical honesty. But... just my opinion.

I, like you, didn't want details. I wanted to know the basics and that was about it. I know myself too well - and I felt that if I had to deal with every little detail that I would not be able to reconcile with my husband. I've wondered at times if I will ever come to regret that decision (to not demand all the details) but so far I haven't, not at all. I think you have to be careful of not wanting to know because you want to stick your head in the sand vs. making an educated decision to not pursue those questions, however.

I also think there are certain things that even though you don't really want to know - you SHOULD know. Otherwise, you will never be able to fully move on as a couple.


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Yes I know there are lots of BS's that don't WANT any details. By all means do not ask for them then, because they will haunt you. I think its crazy that any of us DO want them, why would the brain want that info??? But I guess I am not the only one. I was just thinking that if there is anything more intentionally deceptive that you didn't ask and he didn't tell, if it could be hindering your recovery. Your question might lead him into details and if you don't want to know that, you might want to clarify, or specifically ask things that you think he may have been deceptive about. Or not at all, if it doesn't bother you, because I certainly don't want to pick YOUR scabs too lol!

Good luck with the inlaws, don't let that stressful sitch put a wrench in your recovery, sounds like things are going well!

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Originally Posted by unwritten
Yes I know there are lots of BS's that don't WANT any details. By all means do not ask for them then, because they will haunt you. I think its crazy that any of us DO want them, why would the brain want that info??? But I guess I am not the only one. I was just thinking that if there is anything more intentionally deceptive that you didn't ask and he didn't tell, if it could be hindering your recovery. Your question might lead him into details and if you don't want to know that, you might want to clarify, or specifically ask things that you think he may have been deceptive about. Or not at all, if it doesn't bother you, because I certainly don't want to pick YOUR scabs too lol!

Good luck with the inlaws, don't let that stressful sitch put a wrench in your recovery, sounds like things are going well!

People usually want them because it helps make sense of what happened. And...sometimes not knowing is worse: the brain can conjure up things that are possibly more horrid than what actually happened. Knowing takes the guessing game out of it. It is what it is - no more/no less. That's why there are basics that HAVE to be told.


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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I know I had said before that I didn't want to know all the details of the A, but it is really starting to bother me that I feel that kiss is still lying to me about when the A began. I KNOW that it was before January but he still denies it. I know that they were in the same car with each other after work on January 18, on January 19th is when I packed his stuff and put him out, and on Jan 20, he is telling her that he is "excited about tomorrow night. Make sure you get plenty of sleep". I think what is bothering me is that he is not being completely open and honest about things from the past and about his present thoughts and feelings.

We have an appt with SH on thursday so we can address it then.


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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
I know I had said before that I didn't want to know all the details of the A, but it is really starting to bother me that I feel that kiss is still lying to me about when the A began. I KNOW that it was before January but he still denies it. I know that they were in the same car with each other after work on January 18, on January 19th is when I packed his stuff and put him out, and on Jan 20, he is telling her that he is "excited about tomorrow night. Make sure you get plenty of sleep". I think what is bothering me is that he is not being completely open and honest about things from the past and about his present thoughts and feelings.

We have an appt with SH on thursday so we can address it then.

This is definitely concerning. It's one thing to not want to have details and therefore, not discuss them. Totally different if he's lying about them. Glad you have an appt to sort this out!


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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I just wanted to say that I have a hard time not knowing everthing that happened (details) of my husbands affair but I have to tell myself what good would it do to know? It would only hurt me that much more. But like you, it bothers me to no end. Please tell me that the pain, thoughts about it, worry,etc will go away with time. I am so worried that if I dont stop blowing up ever so often about the whole thing (the past), he will eventually throw his hands up of the whole recovery. I do good for a few and then I just have to vent. Of course, your spouse IS your best friend so you obviously want to talk to them but they are the ones that made you the way you are being in the first place. SO FRUSTRATING!The cheating spouse doesnt understand how they have backed you in a corner. You can either divorce the person you love the most and see your kids part time or you can deal with it and somehow manage to work thru it. That is why infidelity is so painful. The one you trust, love and respect the most (your best friend) stabs in the back over and over with lies, deceit, and giving their body to someone else is crushing.

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Coop, you have to stop thinking that knowledge is painful. It's NOT! The pain only comes from the acts/behaviors that the knowledge is about. Even without the knowledge, the suspicion will hurt as much.

Can you start your own thread, please? Expanding on the sentence above will not be of short duration, and my highjacking RQ's thread would be...impolite. There are a host of FBWs here on MB that will happily (wrong word: freely?) give you the attention and support you seem to require.

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Here's a radio clip about contacting the OW after the affair is over and sending her nastygrams.
Radio clip about contacting OW after affair is over at 5:00 min mark


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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Thanks, Brain. Not the answer I wanted to hear (grrrr) but one I needed to hear. I had the same situation as the caller. I get triggered by someone who looks like OW. Kiss and I spoke about my feelings towards skank yesterday and he had told me that she had been telling him to go back to his family. I guess I should be thankful for that and that she isn't a vindictive bi+(h but still... grumble

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coop, I understand how you feel. It's difficult for the WS to "get" the pain and suffering they caused and contine to caues unless they are actively working towards recovery. Are you and you WS doing that? Please start a new thread so we can get to know you better and help you.

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Oh goodness I need to listen to that clip from BH. But I don't want to because its going to tell me to 'let go' of my devious plans for revenge.

I know what you mean about people who LOOK like OW. H and I do P90X and we LOVE the workouts, but there is a girl in one of the videos (one of my favorites of course) that reminds me of OW. The good news it makes me work crazy hard because I am spurred by the sight of her (or nearly her). Before anyone tells me to ditch the video, I will say I am DONE giving things up for this ho. I happen to like this video/workout and I am not giving one more thing up for her.

RQ for me the reality is much better than the things my brain constructs on its own. In fact my brain STILL tries to continue to construct things that I know for a fact (poly) didn't really happen. My brain wants me to dwell on this. That little devil thing.

I agree with you that more than knowing the details tho, its knowing that Kiss is willing to give you any info/details that you ask at any time, to help with your recovery. It definitely is a showing of remorse to do so. Have you ever had him write them all down as some people suggest? Have you considered a poly or do you not feel you need one?

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unwritten, that is EXACTLY what it will tell you to do. Don't listen!!! LOL, I'm just kidding. But Dr. Harley says that you dont want to give the OW any documentation that may be construed (and used against you) as a threat. A phone call on the other hand.....

For me, I can't say that I can believe what he says the reality is. For example, one evening I had stopped by his condo and had to pick something up of my DS's and I had my DD7 with me. After much knocking, WH finally came to the door. He was disheveled and I noticed skank's pocketbook on the table by the door. Mind you, this was a day or two after him telling me things were over between them and telling me he loved me and missed me and wanted me back (!). Anyway, my mind has played that scene back and imagined what I interrupted many, many times. I finally asked him about it and he said nothing was going on and that she was hiding in the bathroom (riiight, I'm supposed to believe that). So, do I believe him, let it go or demand him to be truthful?

We had a session with SH today and I am so glad that we did. I realize that SH is our (my) best hope to heal from my injury and be able to recover. It will take a lot of the pressure off of me as far as WH's "work" and let me focus on cleaning my side of the street. I plan on making an appointment for next week as well. I honestly feel it is worth every penny and it is nice to have a plan. I do so love to have a plan of action for eveything I do! Unwritten and other BS's out there struggling with recovery would benefit greatly from the coaching center.

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I'm so glad to hear your session went well. What did SH say about the questions you have regarding O&H about A details? I would say if there is a situation like you described plaguing your mind, you need the answer to it. I would back it up with a poly but you know me I needed that poly.

In the middle of trickle truth we had a session with SH. I will admit I entered that session with venom spewing from my lips, my attitude was so cold and hostile I am sure he could feel it through the phone. I was PO'D to no end. I knew H was still lying. I was downright tired and pxxxed off at being made to feel like the dumb crazy wife at home, all the while H was cheating and lying and doing God knows what with God knows who.

H set the session up. He talked first for a long time, then I got on the phone. The rest of the conversation was something along the lines of why I was too resentful to allow recovery to take place, why I didn't want recovery, why I didn't want to be happy. Um, because this lying cheat is still lying to me, duh. I felt ganged up on, for sure. I was shaking so bad during that call I felt like a rat in a maze and I just wanted to GET OUT, like claustrophobia to the max, can't imagine what I would have done if I was actually sitting in someones office!

So, there's my one and only experience. I know I was in a bad place, and I am in a better place mentally now. Much more willing to 'learn.' But I am a little bitter that there was no mention to H about coming clean, taking a poly, or any of those things. I would have liked to have some focus of that session on H coming clean and being O&H, what TRUE recovery was, not FR where there were still secrets and lies.

One of those things that caused me resentment, its bad enough to lie and cheat but then to do MB and pretend you are committed to R when you are lying to SH and still lying and cheating....KWIM. Like why even initiate recovery work if you still want to live that life. MB and SH at the point was an effort to further manipulate me and keep me in check so he could continue his SL.

So you can see why THIS time around I was a little...apprehensive at his efforts.

We have been doing the at home program this summer and have ditched our MC for now, kindof felt like while we were engrossed in the home program there wasn't a need for another perspective on things. I think I will definitely considering switching to SH if we need to do more this summer.

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I voiced my concerns about the O&H part, but I don't know what SH said to kiss about it. I do feel that SH is better for us and that we should ditch our current MC who does nothing for us.

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I had a phone conversation with the OW in my sitch. I didn't call her - she actually called me after I had exposed the affair to her BIL and wife. It was quite surreal. I was calm and classy - but I also set her straight on a few things. To this day I felt I had the perfect conversation with her - but it was only because of God that I was able to have such clarity and composure. I had prayed for the exact words to say if she called. (H had told me she might.)

I won't lie: it felt awfully good to take her down a notch or two without breaking a sweat. But... I'm not sure I would have gone looking to do so if she hadn't called.

In my opinion, she and H both were to blame; it would have been different if she didn't know he was married.

It was mentioned that it might give the OW some sense of satisfaction to seek her out now - and that is a very good point. The time to confront the AP is during exposure.

As for O&H that's a tough one. I can't imagine that SH would be for a spouse not coming clean. However, he probably would want the focus to be on the here and now, not the past. Remember, once the initial disclosure is done it is the job of both spouses to leave the A in the past - which is hard for a BS to do often times. Maybe the situation was being read in such a way that it was thought that's what was happening.

Once my H and I got to the business of doing the MB program full time we did not feel the need to go back to traditional marriage counseling, really. We did a few times afterwards but only so that our MC could help us in a few areas. In fact, it was mainly in the O&H area that we consulted her on, after I'd given her the program books to review. We were so used to not being frank with each other that it helped to have her there to aid in having honest discussions with each other.


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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In my sitch I didn't know about the A's until years later, so there wasn't some grand exposure during the A. If there had been an ongoing A you better believe there would have been a face to face meeting with my POSOW.

I did send OW#1 a letter and like you SunnyD it was classy. I am proud of the fact that I was in control and it wasn't all Jerry Springerish. I think it had more of an impact that way.

You are right about SH wanting to keep it about the here and now and not the past, but when H was still lying to me about so many things how could I have been expected to invest in recovery when I KNEW it was a FR? I agree with not rehashing but I do think that if there are still lies and/or unanswered questions that needs to be addressed FIRST, that is not rehashing because it's never been hashed to begin with.

It seems a lot of times when people want to rehash, it is because they still feel there is deception somewhere.


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Originally Posted by unwritten
In my sitch I didn't know about the A's until years later, so there wasn't some grand exposure during the A. If there had been an ongoing A you better believe there would have been a face to face meeting with my POSOW.

I did send OW#1 a letter and like you SunnyD it was classy. I am proud of the fact that I was in control and it wasn't all Jerry Springerish. I think it had more of an impact that way.

You are right about SH wanting to keep it about the here and now and not the past, but when H was still lying to me about so many things how could I have been expected to invest in recovery when I KNEW it was a FR? I agree with not rehashing but I do think that if there are still lies and/or unanswered questions that needs to be addressed FIRST, that is not rehashing because it's never been hashed to begin with.

It seems a lot of times when people want to rehash, it is because they still feel there is deception somewhere.

Good point: if it hasn't been hashed in the first place it can't be rehashed!

Some people instinctively know they still don't have the truth and therefore, want to pursue the topic still. Other times, a BS just can't let go and he or she stays stuck. I would imagine it isn't always easy to tell which is the case.

I also think that there are times FWSs have a hard truly recalling events properly - they were in SUCH a wayward mindset when it all happened. My H swears he never said or did certain things - and I believe he really doesn't remember. BUT...there's a difference between not knowing every detail correctly and purposefully lying about what happened. I know it can be shame or not wanting to cause further hurt that they don't want to share... but it is hard for a BS to dive into recovery with both feet if the offending spouse isn't willing to bare all.

Having said that: the most important ingredient for successful recovery is the willingness of both spouses to commit 100% to the recovery program - not what happened in the past.


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
unwritten, that is EXACTLY what it will tell you to do. Don't listen!!! LOL, I'm just kidding. But Dr. Harley says that you dont want to give the OW any documentation that may be construed (and used against you) as a threat. A phone call on the other hand.....

For me, I can't say that I can believe what he says the reality is. For example, one evening I had stopped by his condo and had to pick something up of my DS's and I had my DD7 with me. After much knocking, WH finally came to the door. He was disheveled and I noticed skank's pocketbook on the table by the door. Mind you, this was a day or two after him telling me things were over between them and telling me he loved me and missed me and wanted me back (!). Anyway, my mind has played that scene back and imagined what I interrupted many, many times. I finally asked him about it and he said nothing was going on and that she was hiding in the bathroom (riiight, I'm supposed to believe that). So, do I believe him, let it go or demand him to be truthful?

We had a session with SH today and I am so glad that we did. I realize that SH is our (my) best hope to heal from my injury and be able to recover. It will take a lot of the pressure off of me as far as WH's "work" and let me focus on cleaning my side of the street. I plan on making an appointment for next week as well. I honestly feel it is worth every penny and it is nice to have a plan. I do so love to have a plan of action for eveything I do! Unwritten and other BS's out there struggling with recovery would benefit greatly from the coaching center.

RQ, why don't you address this with both SH and KISS? you take the phone first, tell SH about this specific sitch, and ask him to have KISS on the phone w/you to help when you say you want the truth from him about this? is this the last thing you need to know? because you really need to put the past behind you. you are paying for SHs time. use it for what you need. you need O&H, and you feel you're not getting it. but make sure this is it, ok? did you do a poly? because that's another way you could get at the truth.

you will always, i'm afraid, wonder about some things. even after i spend days on all my Qs, once i had the answers, other questions popped into my head. but when i thought about them, they weren't really things i needed to know. just little ways to aggravate myself. i put them out of my head and just focus on recovery. however, this specific Q of yours, i think, needs answering. you *know* she was there. you *know* KISS isn't being O&H about this. you need him to be. don't apologize for what you *need* to recover. KISS can't recover with you if he is still hiding things from you, even if he's doing it to not hurt you anymore. once you have the full truth, you *will* be able to recover.


fBW 49
xWH 55
DD 22
DDay 6/07
D 8/15
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Here's an excellent clip on forgiving the OW.
Radio clip on Forgiving the OW
Segment #2

Tell us what you think.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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BH, thanks for that clip. I'll listen in a minute. We went to church today and again the topic of forgiveness came up. And again, i searched inside myself to see if I have the ability yet to forgive kiss, and I just don't feel it yet. But I continue to pray for that ability. I find it difficult to believe I'll ever forgive her. LOL

Kiss spoke to me a bit last nighht about his talk with SH. He gave me a written NC plan that demonstrates his plan for ensuring NC with skank. SH also spoke to kiss about the trauma involved in regards to his adulterous actions. I told kiss that I never deserved that. No matter what kind of a wife I was or wasn't and what needs I met or didn't, no one deserves that kind of betrayal. Kiss agreed with that and I am glad that unlike his first post here on MB, he gets that.

We'll be speaking to SH again this week. I'm very optimistic about our sessions with him and I am glad that I don't feel that I have to keep kiss accountable. I can step back and let SH and the MB group do that. That is a blessing to me.

~RQ

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