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HHH, I know he's right. He knows that I am trying. Guess I still have a ton of work to do on myself. I don't know if I can do that with him by my side, though.

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He still doesn't get it, you're right. You NEED the just compensation to "move on" and he just wants you to forget about the past and move on. It doesn't happen that way.

It's true that us BSs have work to do in all the recovery efforts as well. I know I did and still do. However, what I see as the missing piece here is that kiss is not taking responsibility for his actions. "Feeling bad" about them is not good enough! So he feels like poo - that's great. What's he doing to make amends? You've told him exactly what he can do (just compensation) and he is not doing that. So, the big message he is sending to you is, "I want to do what's easy rather than what's right." AND/OR... "I still care more about myself than I do about the state of my marriage and family."

Given those messages, I certainly understand why you can't just move on. And let me tell ya... just stuffing it and not dealing with it - not having a better marriage - is NOT recovery, RQ. It will leave you vulnerable. I've seen it IRL as well as on the forums.

HHH is right - you have to go through and Kiss is trying to go around.

The other posters are right too. You've gotten some great advice here.

You will never feel safe in your marriage if you do not get just compensation and make your marriage better than ever. While it's true that doing all the things MB recommends - meeting needs, avoiding LBs, putting in the UA time - will make your marriage better, you are still missing the just compensation component.

Personally, my take on it is that as long as kiss is not willing to put forth the effort on just compensation, he is not putting EPs in place. Furthermore, he is NOT demonstrating he is a buyer in this relationship. No wonder you are frustrated.

Having said all that, I stand by some of my thoughts I had at the beginning of recovery for H and I. I knew that I could not stand, whip in hand, ready to smack him every time I felt upset or angry about the A. I knew there was nothing he could do to change the past. Therefore, while it was very tough - I had to hold my tongue and not lash out, not bring up the past, not try to "make him pay" or any of that. I had to meet his need for admiration along with other needs... and it was difficult at first. After all, he had to earn some of that respect/admiration first. But...I was able to do so BECAUSE I witnessed his willingness to take responsibility and to do whatever I needed him to do. And yes, I analyzed whether or not what I required of him was reasonable.

I can also point out that my H didn't always say the great and wonderful things that I wanted him to say. (This is documented on my recovery thread.) I had these thoughts in my head that if only H would act a certain way or say certain things, I would heal much faster. If he got down on his knees and cried, for instance, about how I never deserved any of what he did.... Or, if he talked about wanting to give me the moon and stars to make up for it.... that somehow, I would be moved to forgive him and just get over it. That didn't happen. It wouldn't have been honest or genuine if it had, because that's not my H's style; never has been. I had to reconcile my notions with the fact that I wanted REAL recovery. That meant that H's actions, not his words, would be the "proof" of his remorse that I needed.

In my case, the consistency of H's willingness to face obstacles got me over the hump of my anger and hurt. It also got me over the need to hear the grandiose statements I felt I wanted from him. Words ring hallow while actions shore up the holes.

I can't help but wonder why it is that kiss will go so far with his actions, but not take them all the way. That's the real dilemma here. It's why you are stuck. I would be too. If he had jumped through every hoop you'd asked of him, I would tell you to just hang in there - true recovery takes time. But that's not the case. If your "hoops" were unreasonable, I would tell you to reconsider those hoops. They don't seem to be so - at least not to anyone here.

Of course, if you choose you can change the scope of those hoops. I know I did a few times throughout the process... like needing to hear certain things from my H. I was able to think about what it was I needed and why - and how he could offer me just compensation in another way. For instance, with the family: I never asked him to call my brother and sister in law specifically. Yet, when my brother came to visit, I expected him to be a certain way. And you know what? he was - without me even asking. In fact, he surpassed my expectations on this. (Long story - I won't go into details.) Although, I will add that I never asked him to call them because there wasn't the direct issues that have occurred with Kiss and your family members.

SO - for example - if you wanted to change your hoop to ask kiss to write a letter instead of phoning them - that might be a little easier and still offer just compensation. Of course, you may have already put this on the table, I don't know: I'm just giving a specific example of how there could be some POJA applied.

I guess what it boils down to, in my opinion, is you need just compensation. He can examine it in any way he likes, but it boils down to you needing it to move on. If he has better suggestions of how to give you that - then lets hear them!

I feel like I am talking in circles here... it's just so frustrating! I can only imagine how it must be for you.

But anyway....GOOD JOB on the deadline issuing!






"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
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Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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WOW, SunnyDinTx, that was a wonderful post above. Thank you for sharing your story and thoughts soooooo openly. It really helps to hear it from this perspective. Thank you !!!!!!


BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
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No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
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Hello Rocketqueen. I too wonder why your H isn't makeing wrong his rights. Why he is not so remorseful that you see his remorse in his actions. Normally, when people are remorseful, they kill themselves to make up for the wrong they have done to someone. I KNOW when someone is sorry and when someone isn't really sorry. My H is "sorry" the he made these choices, but he is not sorry that he actually did it, or sorry that he hurt me so deeply. I don't know where your H falls in this. Is he the kind of person has issues with empathyzing with others? It does seem that he doesn't REALLY get how much he has hurt you. I think it would have to be he just really doesn't get it or he doesn't care enough to do whatever it takes to make it better for you. You sound so strong and capable. Thank you for sharing your story. Just hearing your words is so helpful.


BS Me 47,WH 49
DS's x3 17, 10, 7
Multiple D-Days
No disclosure by WH. No EP's, no transparency, no guilt or remorse either.
Plan C DOES NOT WORK!
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Would your H be willing to sign up and go through the Online Program? It's very specific and you get coaching and guidance all the way through. You had mentioned not wanting to throw more money away, but if your H is willing, this very specific program could help turn your marriage around.

It's worth the money to get the accountability and the help. There is a seminar to watch and an audio set of the entire MB program. We watched the seminar together and listened to the CDs in the car, so we had ongoing MB education. We also currently listen to the radio segments by computer.

My H never talks about the A. He said he wanted to put it behind him, not to sweep it under the rug, but because he is so embarrassed and horrified at what he did that he doesn't want it in his mind. I can get that. I still think about it every day, at some point, but I don't bring it up anymore.

Your H will show his remorse by meeting your needs and avoiding love busters, as well as by following EPs. The Five Steps workbook has very detailed questionnaires that specify exactly how each wants ENs met.

For example, for affection, I specified to my FWH that I would love for him to tell me "I'm in love with you" and cuddle and kiss me every single morning before we get out of bed. Sometimes I'm still half-asleep when he plants a little kiss on my lips or forehead, but he never fails to remember to that one little thing.

Most men want very specific instruction on what is needed. Dr. Harley even had one man follow a detailed list prepared by the man's wife. He had to check each item off as it was done. After some time, these actions became a habit and the man no longer needed the list.





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RQ, I meant to say "right his wrongs" About an hour after I posted, I wanted to edit, but the option was already gone.


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RQ, I am very sorry that Kiss has not stepped up yet. I feel for you because I know exactly where you are.

It is VERY frustrating when words do not equal actions. Kiss is saying the right words, but his general ho hum attitude about recovery is not indicating that he really understands the pain he caused you and is willing to pull out all the stops to get recovery. Right?

I don't think everyone needs that, a WS who is proactively willing to 'fight for you' by doing whatever they can to win back your heart and put the train back on its track. Obviously recovery requires a spouse willing to do the work, but it isn't necessarily about the willingness, as much as the proactive desire to step outside their box, step into the uncomfortable zone, and proactively and aggressively fight for you and your marriage. My H spent well over a YEAR after DDay saying 'I will do whatever you want for me' and truly, if I had come to him with a 'you need to read chapter 3 of SAA' and stayed on him about it, he would have done it. Is that willingness to do the work? Sure. I needed MORE. I needed HIM to come to ME and say, 'tonight we are doing chapter 3 of SAA, together' (or whatever). I needed HIM to drive recovery, demand we schedule UA time, demand we work on our assignments, etc. I was the one who was 'willing to do the work when asked' but I did not want to drive it. To me, part of JC was to see him fight for me. After he hurt me as bad as he did, I needed to know that he wanted me and was willing to fight for me, not just go along for the ride.

It is Kiss's attitude, more than his lack of willing to do the work, that stands in your way here.

Like I said, not everyone needs that for JC, but I did and it seems like you do too. It is VERY frustrating to feel like you are SO CLOSE to a true, unbelievable recovery and marriage and you just can't get him to step over that bridge.

I am going to go post to Kiss now. I am going to tell him how close I was to leaving before H turned it around. H was so close to pushing it a hair too far, and he knows it.

I did give H a deadline, and he is still on the clock so to speak. It has driven him. But more than the timeline I think what drove him to change was seeing the look in my eyes when I gave him that deadline. He knew I didn't hate him anymore, I wasn't resentful or frustrated or bitter or even really that sad. I was just emotionless and done. I was just looking forward to peace in my life, moving forward, without him. That is what drove him, but it was almost the death of us, and still might be.

Keep posting. Keep letting us know what is going on.

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Thank you everyone for your kind responses. To me, I need to see that he wants to work on recovery. Not just do things because I want him to do it. I need to see that I am worth the effort to him and I have yet to see that. Time will tell, but I can see that he is stepping things up.

I would really like to find an affordable marriage counselor that could help us, as ours isn't trained in infidelity and "treatment" of that.

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Littlebit, thank you for your kind words. I feel the same way you do. I beat myself up if I even THINK I made someone else upset. I know that Kiss is deeply sorry for what he did. But he does need to right his wrongs in order for me to be able to forgive him and move on. If he doesn't, I will not be able to.

Longway, I do feel that he needs some type of accountablity. At least someone he can talk to and the online program would be good for that. Might I want to see if kiss is inested in recovery before I invest the money, kwim? He is getting better with the EN's and he has EP's in place. I try very hard to not bring up the affair, but I still trigger/think about it a lot, which I try to hide. In fact, kiss marked me at like a -1 for O&H because I don't mention them to him!

Unwritten- You hit it on the nose. It's like me telling my daughter to aplogize to her brother. She's not really sorry she wacked him with her doll but she'll do it because I told her to. It's just not sincere and I want it, no I need it to be sincere. If it's not, then it means nothing. And then I feel like I mean nothing.

Sunny- you are awesome, as always.


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Originally Posted by SunnyDinTX
I would let kiss know that you cannot recover in a marriage where you have been betrayed and he is not willing to give you just compensation for that. I would specify every way in which you have cleaned up your side of the street. I would then say that it is unacceptable to you that he has not done X, Y, and Z - especially when you have asked for this several times over. How can you possibly feel secure in this marriage when he is refusing to make amends that are reasonable? I would then give him a deadline to complete X, Y, and Z. I would not fight with him about why he isn't willing - because honestly, that's just too dang bad. If he hadn't cheated, he wouldn't be asked to do these things.

Exactly. He's either in or out.

Last edited by indiegirl; 07/30/12 04:20 PM.

What would you do if you were not afraid?

"Fear is the little death. Fear is the mind-killer" Frank Herbert.

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Originally Posted by Littlebit3
WOW, SunnyDinTx, that was a wonderful post above. Thank you for sharing your story and thoughts soooooo openly. It really helps to hear it from this perspective. Thank you !!!!!!

Glad to be of some help, Littlebit!


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Thank you everyone for your kind responses. To me, I need to see that he wants to work on recovery. Not just do things because I want him to do it. I need to see that I am worth the effort to him and I have yet to see that. Time will tell, but I can see that he is stepping things up.

I would really like to find an affordable marriage counselor that could help us, as ours isn't trained in infidelity and "treatment" of that.

I have felt this way at times in recovery. My H needed some guidance at various times. The only thing I would comment on here is that you do have to look at some of Dr. H's works and realize that sometimes men those specific directions of "what to do" instead of the mentality that, "if he really cared, I wouldn't have to ask!"

Yes, of course you want him to want to make just compensation. You don't want him offering hollow apologies/thoughts/actions he doesn't mean, like your example about making someone apologize. That would NOT be RH, would it?

Sometimes, whether because of different personality types or different genders or different upbringings us humans have different ways of coping and showing love and commitment. In that vein, I would caution you against assuming that just because you had to ask H for certain actions that it means he doesn't mean them or is just doing them to appease you. They just may not be natural things for him to do. Just like was mentioned in LongWay's post above, Dr. H talks about a wife writing a list for her H of things for him to do to show affection. As a personal example, I had to tell my H exactly how I would like my birthday to be recognized last year. When he did it, exactly as I spelled out, did I feel a little like it was too bad that I had to coach it out of him? Well, yeah - but that went away. Plus, I chose to focus on the fact that he wanted to do it exactly as I laid out - because that's what would make me happy. Hopefully, this year, I won't have to coach so much.

What I am trying to say is, sometimes we have to realize that what we have in our heads as the proper way for our spouses to show love and commitment is not always their natural way. We have to teach them and that's perfectly fine.

HOWEVER... that is not what I see as the core issue here. The core issue is, kiss not stepping up to the plate when you've already laid out the specifics. That, to me, is a glaring indicator that he is being lazy in recovery and not taking it serious enough.

Now, if he followed your directions to the letter of the law - jumping through those hoops - and you were still feeling exasperated because you had to "ask" and that he wasn't "fighting for the marriage on his own accord..." my advice to you would be somewhat different here. I would be asking different questions and posing different thoughts - because that's a different matter.

So, my next big question to you is, which is it that is REALLY bothering you: that you want him to be doing more without your asking or that he hasn't completed things you have already asked?

My next question would be, what reason(s) does he give for not completing these things? And also, do you feel your requests are reasonable? Do you feel he could give you an alternate way on some of these things as just compensation? If not, it's OK - I'm just asking. It is, after all, YOUR just compensation.





"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Geez...forgive the typos in that post above. I just had total words missing, lol. It doesn't help that I had a bunch of teenagers going in and out, messing up my thoughts, while I was typing that. smile

I wanted to add something. There is a big difference when you are coaching someone on how to meet your needs as to how they respond to it. If they are enthusiastically implementing your requests it is vastly different than if doing so grudgingly. Not to mention, with the MB requirement of being radically honest, you should know the difference.

Of course, enthusiastic doesn't mean one has to be jumping up and down about something that is difficult. For instance, when it is put to a WS that the BS wants a poly, I don't imagine too many WSs are going to be "enthusiastic" about the poly itself. They should, however, be enthusiastic about the fact that they can do something to make their BSs feel safe and secure in the marriage and put their minds at ease.

This is the only other thing I have to comment on as far as the "needing to make H do stuff" train of thought. When you do give him direction, is he happy to know how it is he can make you feel better? I know for my H, he was happy when he was able to do specific things that helped me move on. After all, he wanted me to move on as quickly as possible and didn't feel so helpless when he could assist towards that end.

I think my wanting to hear the grandiose statements is along the same lines of what you've been saying, RQ, about wanting kiss to "fight for your marriage." I totally understand that. There are different ways to accomplish that but I don't think you will ever fully buy in until you feel that he wants this recovery with you more than anything in the world. He MUST demonstrate this to you in a way that YOU feel this. The only way he gets any kind of pass on this is if he has some sort of disorder that prevents that. I say that because I have a friend whose H has Aspergers, which prevents him from processing things in the same way the wife does when it comes to relationships. MB was CRUCIAL for their marriage even though no infidelity had occurred. It was the only way that H would even meet his wife needs.



"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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I am listening to today's radio program now. No, I am not Ginger, lol, but I sure as heck could be! Very similar story

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Originally Posted by SunnyDinTX
When you do give him direction, is he happy to know how it is he can make you feel better? I know for my H, he was happy when he was able to do specific things that helped me move on. After all, he wanted me to move on as quickly as possible and didn't feel so helpless when he could assist towards that end.

Actually, he just seems to ignore any of my suggestions

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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Originally Posted by SunnyDinTX
When you do give him direction, is he happy to know how it is he can make you feel better? I know for my H, he was happy when he was able to do specific things that helped me move on. After all, he wanted me to move on as quickly as possible and didn't feel so helpless when he could assist towards that end.

Actually, he just seems to ignore any of my suggestions

That shows nothing but disrespect if you ask me! This goes back to him thinking he can do everything on his terms. He needs to learn he cannot. Ignoring your spouse's needs is extremely disrespectful and does not show a buyer's mentality.

You have, I assume, told him how his ignoring your thoughts and suggestions feels to you, so he isn't ignorant on the matter. ???


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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He knows as I have told him a few times. He says he is trying. I get words but not action.

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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
He knows as I have told him a few times. He says he is trying. I get words but not action.

As Yoda says, "Do or do not...there is no try!"

frown

I guess the problem remains in the area of motivation. What's it going to take to get him in gear - that's the million dollar question. I say consequences. I know he's talked to SH a time or two - but it sounds like he needs the extra boot on a regular basis. With the online program, I am concerned that he won't hop onto the site and do it.

Does he have any answers/suggestions (other than for you to just get over it) or is he just making excuses time after time?

Consequences. That's about all you can do with this. He's had plenty of time to "try" so now it's time for "do or do not..."


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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LOL, thanks Sunny!

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Originally Posted by SunnyDinTX
I guess the problem remains in the area of motivation. What's it going to take to get him in gear - that's the million dollar question.


Love Busters covers passive-aggressiveness, apathy, and bad habits. This is really a case of all three. Sounds like what's really needed is a solid plan to deal with the apathy together. Setting aside time every week to read a chapter aloud and answer the questions together will help address that. We used Sunday nights at 8:33PM. Pick the time you like smile


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Original thread lost in the forum purge of '09.
4 months after D-Day
1 year after D-Day
Two Years Later
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