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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Thank you so much, sugarcane and Susie. I'll have a talk with kiss about this. He got them off of eBay so they can go back on it, I'm thinking.

eBay enables impulse purchases.
An eBay purchase does not necessarily mean that he doesn't care about you.
Let me ask you: Does he have a history of impulse purchases?

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Originally Posted by HDW
eBay enables impulse purchases.
An eBay purchase does not necessarily mean that he doesn't care about you.
Let me ask you: Does he have a history of impulse purchases?

I would have to answer that with a no. He has numerous pins that he "watches" and most items are listed with a 7 day bidding period so I don't believe the purchase, or any others, was an impulsive one.

He only wanted 4 of the 12 pins that were sold in the set, so right now he is keeping the 4 and re-listing the others separatley. He will be able to re-coup what he paid.

We agreed that any future un-necessary purchases that are more than $50 will have to be agreed upon (POJA'd ) by both of us prior to buying it. if it's not agreed, then it doesn't get bought. What would be good consequences should this agreement be broken by either one of us?

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Well I really like the envelope system for budgets developed by Dave Ramsey.
The consequence for breaking the envelope system is that the envelope is empty and you can't buy anything else

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Originally Posted by HDW
Well I really like the envelope system for budgets developed by Dave Ramsey.
The consequence for breaking the envelope system is that the envelope is empty and you can't buy anything else

Yes, I've heard of this and like it. That is why I tell Kiss to take his spending money out of the bank and when it is gone, it's gone. He has a bad habit of using his debit card for everything. And to me, that is like having a magic refillable pocket!

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get a prepaid debit card that can get refilled every week. It wont "refill" itself like the check card does.

Last edited by LuvsDavid; 10/03/12 02:05 PM.

Me -BS 40
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3 D-Days from 12/25/10 to 01/06/11
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Originally Posted by HDW
Well I really like the envelope system for budgets developed by Dave Ramsey.
The consequence for breaking the envelope system is that the envelope is empty and you can't buy anything else

I was going to suggest Dave Ramsey as well, particularly his "blow fund" concept. Assuming that everyone is going to blow some money on something that isn't in the budget, it's best to, well, budget for it. So you and kiss may do well by each having a "blow" envelope with cash for whatever you feel like buying.

That way, he can use his blow money to buy the pins and the money is accounted for. He's happy and you're happy since the budget isn't blown.

My wife and I leave the debit cards at home and do not use them at all. $7 here and $10 there adds up to $100 very quickly. Then again, $100 doesn't seem to be worth as much as it used to be smile but you'd be surprised at how much you have left over when you don't debit anything. Gasoline goes on a single credit card that's passed back and forth between us and paid off every month.


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Kiss has a budget of $20 in spending money per day for food, coffee etc. If he only spent $10, then the $10 he didn't spend can go into his "blow fund". Is that the idea?

We have a small amount left over for taking the kids out or going out to dinner so I wouldn't want that being used for the blow fund.

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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Kiss has a budget of $20 in spending money per day for food, coffee etc. If he only spent $10, then the $10 he didn't spend can go into his "blow fund". Is that the idea?

If you're ok with it then, yes, it seems reasonable. Or it can go back into something else...really just whatever y'all agree (and are ok) with. POJA.

Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
We have a small amount left over for taking the kids out or going out to dinner so I wouldn't want that being used for the blow fund.

In our case, we "restock" the cash every two weeks. Any day-to-day surplus goes back into the envelope and, if there's any left at the end of the two weeks we do something with it. Leftover money doesn't happen too often, though. smile


Last edited by Northwood8900; 10/03/12 03:33 PM.

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Originally Posted by unwritten
RQ hope you and Kiss are having a fun time at Niagra Falls.

Give us an update when you get back.

We did have fun while we were away. Went on the Maid of the Mist and did lots of walking around. Most EN's were met though I think we could have talked more on the 5+ hours drive! God, I was so bored. It is hard to come up with conversation that does not have roots in the past and doesn't speak of the pending future. Does that make sense? We speak of the kids and the days plans and work, but nothing of importance.

I also wanted to mention the talk with my parents last week. I thought it was amazing of my mother to invite us over to talk. I tried to stay out of the conversation except to tell my parents that kiss is trying to make things right and that I do see what he is doing but I also had to back up my parents in things they said that kiss bristled at. He didn't really say much for himself and I think there was much more he could have said. And at one point my brother walked into the house and kiss didn't even say hello to him or anything. There were also a few red flags that concern me that I have to sort through in my head.

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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Originally Posted by HDW
Well I really like the envelope system for budgets developed by Dave Ramsey.
The consequence for breaking the envelope system is that the envelope is empty and you can't buy anything else

Yes, I've heard of this and like it. That is why I tell Kiss to take his spending money out of the bank and when it is gone, it's gone. He has a bad habit of using his debit card for everything. And to me, that is like having a magic refillable pocket!

Then you should talk about getting rid of the debit card. Using the envelop system does not require a debit card

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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Originally Posted by unwritten
RQ hope you and Kiss are having a fun time at Niagra Falls.

Give us an update when you get back.

We did have fun while we were away. Went on the Maid of the Mist and did lots of walking around. Most EN's were met though I think we could have talked more on the 5+ hours drive! God, I was so bored. It is hard to come up with conversation that does not have roots in the past and doesn't speak of the pending future. Does that make sense? We speak of the kids and the days plans and work, but nothing of importance.

I also wanted to mention the talk with my parents last week. I thought it was amazing of my mother to invite us over to talk. I tried to stay out of the conversation except to tell my parents that kiss is trying to make things right and that I do see what he is doing but I also had to back up my parents in things they said that kiss bristled at. He didn't really say much for himself and I think there was much more he could have said. And at one point my brother walked into the house and kiss didn't even say hello to him or anything. There were also a few red flags that concern me that I have to sort through in my head.

Can you give us specifics on the red flags and what kiss bristled at? It would be a good idea to mull those over objectively with us or with SH.

As for what to talk about on those types of trips or any other time, it really helps to have some conversation starters in mind that get the two of you sharing your innermost desires; things that help you fall in love again. I can't remember what book it's from, but there was a list I remember somewhere with things like that. (I'll do some digging.) A few of them are about future dreams, plans..like, "if you could live anywhere in the world, where would it be and why," or what would you do if you won the lottery...would you quit work? What would you do with your spare time?

Other things can get you in touch with your playful side: who was your favorite relative as a kid? The most memorable day as a child or as a teen... Favorite subjects in school and why; favorite teachers...

Of course, you can also take steps towards intimacy: what was your most embarrassing moment? A time where you felt really afraid or really down? Sharing something you've never shared with your spouse because you're too embarrassed, too guarded, or ashamed - something that happened before the two of you met - not A related.

In everything you each describe your feelings and go deeper than "happy or sad or angry" but WHY: what about that person/place/thing/event made you happy, sad, angry, etc...

These are the best kind of conversations to find connection with each other - and the two of you desperately need that connection right now. It opens up the door toward empathy and understanding - and all the good things that come with it.


"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
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My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Sunny, what bothered me was 1) that he got upset about what my parents said about his (how they had ignored me, etc) during the separation. 2) He is still justifying some things 3) my mother doubts his sincerity 4) he didn't say much 5) my father had to prod him to apologize to my mom. I still get the feeling that he is doing and saying things because they are expected and not because he feels it should be done. What is that called?

I like your ideas about the conversation starters. I remember one time trying to get kiss to open up and talk to me and had asked him what superhero he would like to be. Rather than answering me he gave me a non-superhero and then would answer with "I don't know" I think we both need to work on our conversation but I get frustrated with him and his short responses.

PS, I also read his latest posts. Sunny, what impression do you get from them? I'm curious to see if you catch it..I will not be reading them anymore. He is def posting for my benefit.

Last edited by Rocketqueen; 10/04/12 01:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
Sunny, what bothered me was 1) that he got upset about what my parents said about his (how they had ignored me, etc) during the separation. 2) He is still justifying some things 3) my mother doubts his sincerity 4) he didn't say much 5) my father had to prod him to apologize to my mom. I still get the feeling that he is doing and saying things because they are expected and not because he feels it should be done. What is that called?

I like your ideas about the conversation starters. I remember one time trying to get kiss to open up and talk to me and had asked him what superhero he would like to be. Rather than answering me he gave me a non-superhero and then would answer with "I don't know" I think we both need to work on our conversation but I get frustrated with him and his short responses.

PS, I also read his latest posts. Sunny, what impression do you get from them? I'm curious to see if you catch it..I will not be reading them anymore. He is def posting for my benefit.

It would definitely be a red flag to me too - everything you've described about the conversation with your family. It's disheartening that he is still justifying. At this point in recovery, if he is just telling you what you want to hear and not really remorseful, he is NOT being O&H - a key element of recovery! He should be well past the point of withdrawal - which is where you might get some of that fake it til you make it stuff. Well past the time for that.

Is Kiss usually this disconnected with his feelings - that he can't have real conversations? I would be frustrated with the short responses too. Some people have to learn to have those deep conversations though. There are a myriad of reasons someone may not be a sharing type - doesn't mean they can't learn. I suppose you've shared with him that you NEED this intimate conversation?

As for his latest posts - it seems to me that he is avoiding discussing things in depth here as well. Either he doesn't want to get 2x4'd or he is too arrogant to think he can really be helped by MB posters.

In essence, there's nothing wrong with Kiss posting for your benefit - but the caveat is that he MUST still be O&H while posting: open to real help and honest with what he shares, the good and the bad.

Is it possible at all that he really sees things differently than you do? Does he really believe the conversation went well, for instance?

If perception is the problem that's a much different fix than having a spouse who is only going through the motions of recovery.

My last thought: there are certain conditions that make people view the world differently than most of us - especially when it comes to the social world. This is usually associated with Autism spectrum disorders. However, that is rare. And even then, those people can learn to be good partners using MB principles. In fact, it is IMPERATIVE for them. (I'm talking Aspergers here, not full blown Autism.) Some people have never been diagnosed because they are normal but don't always deal well with people and such. I'm just asking if it's possible - even though it's unlikely.

If Kiss still only wants to do what HE thinks is required in recovery and not the harder stuff, perhaps he is still shrugging off responsibility of everything that's happened.

In my sitch, my H was not the "begging and groveling" type. I think I've shared that. BUT...he WAS willing to do "what it took: what I needed" and still is - even when it was hard. It's a little hard to explain except to say that I could see/feel/hear the humility that he had - and I HAD to know it was there in order to recover.

Last edited by SunnyDinTX; 10/04/12 04:39 PM.

"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
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Originally Posted by SunnyDinTX
It would definitely be a red flag to me too - everything you've described about the conversation with your family. It's disheartening that he is still justifying. At this point in recovery, if he is just telling you what you want to hear and not really remorseful, he is NOT being O&H - a key element of recovery! He should be well past the point of withdrawal - which is where you might get some of that fake it til you make it stuff. Well past the time for that.
I guess it is just hard for me to tell the difference. I still don't trust what he says.

Originally Posted by SunnyD
Is Kiss usually this disconnected with his feelings - that he can't have real conversations? I would be frustrated with the short responses too. Some people have to learn to have those deep conversations though. There are a myriad of reasons someone may not be a sharing type - doesn't mean they can't learn. I suppose you've shared with him that you NEED this intimate conversation?
I do recall that when SH was coaching kiss he had told him to re-read the chapter about intimate conversation. We do lack a depth in conversation and I can talk for hours with my friends!

Originally Posted by sunnyD
Is it possible at all that he really sees things differently than you do? Does he really believe the conversation went well, for instance?


Ahh but he doesn't say it went well. He says "it went about how I expected." and "I know how important it is to her." I interpret that a certain way but don't want to DJ him here.

Sigh. Maybe I'm just reading too much into things. That's why I asked for an outsiders view. But I need him to share how he really feels about things and how he really thinks about things, etc.


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Yeah, I noticed he said "how he expected" and referenced that it was important to you. But - that can be taken several ways as it is very ambiguous and vague. If one were just reading his thread, without the benefit of your comments here about how you think it went, it could mean that "it was hard; I didn't want to do it - but it was important to her; I'm still uncomfortable with the family; I didn't expect them to forgive me immediately, but it was a first step and I plan on winning them over..."

So, I was just curious if the two of you perceive the conversation differently or if he was just avoiding people getting on his case about his attitude. From there, you have to ask - why. If he's avoiding, it's either because he feels above getting help here - OR - he is still not taking responsibility and therefore doesn't see the need for help here - OR - there is something even deeper going on. After all this time I think it's about time to get to the bottom of that.

On the conversation - YES - you MUST have deeper conversations. Sometimes people avoid them because they're concerned (consciously or subconsciously) about what they might hear or say - or they are conflict avoiders. Been there! Until you go deeper, you won't connect emotionally. Without that emotional connection, you will not fall back in love. When you feel that connection, the O&H falls into place.

Did Kiss re-read the IC chapter as prescribed?



"The #1 reason why people give up so quickly is because they tend to look at how far they still have to go, rather than how far they've gotten."

Me, FBW(46) H, FWH (43)
M - 21 yrs & counting
D (20)
S (18)
S (16)
Surviving and Thriving since November 2010 thanks to MB!
My Recovery Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538986#Post2538986
My Original Thread: http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457141&page=1

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Originally Posted by SunnyDinTX
Did Kiss re-read the IC chapter as prescribed?

No, I don't believe he has.

Aaand, I checked his phone last night and there were some friendly texts back and forth between him and a female co-worker that were not work-related. I just don't know what the heck I am going to do with him banghead

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Oh goodness. KISS. What goes on in his brain.

That is really not good. In this stage of the game, he KNOWS that it is absolutely unacceptable. There is no confusion to the rules. Which means he knew that, and did it anyway. Knowing what the impact would be, knowing what the fallout could be, he just did it anyway. That is a level of blatant disregard for you, your recovery, EP's, etc. Sometimes I feel like he almost gives up. Which is sad because he never really even worked that hard to begin with.

IDK RQ what are you going to do here. I think you have a decision to make. If he has this level of selfish disregard now while you are in the middle of a crisis time during your recovery, then what will he do when the dust has settled and you are in the routine again.

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This is what, round three or four or five on this ride?

Time to step off, RQ, and for good this time.


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Originally Posted by Rocketqueen
I just don't know what the heck I am going to do with him banghead

That's a big part of the problem...what are you going to do with YOU? kiss' lack of care for you is glaring...you just don't want to face/accept it.

Originally Posted by Northwood8900
This is what, round three or four or five on this ride?

Time to step off, RQ, and for good this time.

x 2

Reading his thread and yours is like watching a trainwreck in slow motion. Sorry RQ, but I don't see any change/improvements here. Get off the crazy train.

Hugs to you.


BW - me
exWH - serial cheater
2 awesome kids
Divorced 12/2011




Many a good man has failed because he had a wishbone where his backbone should have been.

We gain strength, and courage, and confidence by each experience in which we really stop to look fear in the face... we must do that which we think we cannot.
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Quote
Aaand, I checked his phone last night and there were some friendly texts back and forth between him and a female co-worker that were not work-related. I just don't know what the heck I am going to do with him

I don't know what you're actually going to do with him, but I know what you SHOULD do.


A smooth sea never made a skilled mariner.
~ English proverb



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