We are having another joint counseling session tonight and I think it will be the last. I can't take it anymore. I have tried and tried and my efforts have been for naught. I commented to W last night that it seemed everything bad that happened drove her closer to leaving and the good things seemed to have no impact on bringing her back. She said that was because things don't work that way.<P>On Friday and Saturday she told me that "as of right now, I want the divorce". She told me that twice and I do remember this clearly. When I mentioned that last night, she denied it saying that insisting that what she said was "I am getting close to making a decision". This is a bald-faced lie. I cannot continue to have hope that we can work things out when she cannot even be honest with me.<P>She has never been able to say to me or the counselor that she was there because she wanted to see if things could be worked out. She simply said that she had made a commitment to the therapist to attend a minimum number of sessions. The therapist told her that she hadn't asked for a commitment, just that that was how she usually worked, and didn't continue to pursue the issue with W.<P>She insists that I understand how she thinks and feels and that I modify behavior accordingly. On the other hand, when I try to express how I feel or ask questions to attempt to understand where she is coming from, she shuts down completely.<P>Example...Since she has said that she definitely wants the divorce, I asked if there was any need to continue the joint therapy. Her response was "You just have to make your own decision". I told her that in order for me to be able to make a decision that I felt was right and I could live with, it was important to me to know if she felt that there was any feeling left in her to work things out. She continued to blow this off and kept telling me to make my own decision.<P>I feel that in joint counseling, both parties need to feel that there is something to be worked on, some possibility of finding ways to work things out. Otherwise, it's just a venting session, which I don't need right now(I can vent here, LOL).<P>There is NO attempt on her part to try to understand how I am feeling and do what she can to help me feel better. She is consumed with herself. You cannot resolve issues with someone in that state.<P>I am sad, extremely disappointed, but resigned. I feel I have given my all to this and it has turned to ****. Without something(even trivial) from W, I don't feel I have anything left to give. The drain on my heart and soul has reached critical mass. I think it's time to move on. I want to be wrong, but I don't see how.<P>To anyone who reads this mess above, thanks for the time.

your W is obviously emotionally attached to the OM, just from reading your post, ill give you my 2 cents worth, and you can take it or leave it. maybe she has not made the decsiosn to leave the OM, and is continuing the affair. You have to take care of yourself right now and if that means pulling back a little, let the dust settle, then you can look at things more objectively. If an eagle goes after two rabbits, the eagle looses them both right?, maybe you are persuing with too much right now. Go get the book, the relationship toolbox by robert abel, and read the chapter that most pertains to you, there are 70 of them. then after you read the ones that pertain to you and what you want, read the others. see the counselor for yourself, because if your marriage ends in divorce, you still will need professional help and not do it yourself. keep posting here, youll find a lot of help and positive advice. hang in there and keep praying

Heartpain,<P>One thing I have learned from being on this board is that you have to learn to make your decisions NOT based on what others feel, think, want, etc.....<P>In otherwords, if you want the marriage, then you decide that is what you will do - is work on the marriage. It isn't dependent on how she feels, her relationship with OM, or whether counseling is or isn't working, or anything else. You decide, you act, and you do the best you can do.<P>If you've decided YOU no longer want this, because you just don't want to be married any more, or you are just ready to move on and feel satisfied that you've already done everything you can do - then you can act to "throw in the towel."<P>It IS YOUR decision. Not hers. Seriously.<P>I think you are frustrated, and need to vent. I think you are maybe running out of steam and need to take a little break from the ups and downs and take care of you for now.<P>But it doesn't sound like the marriage is over, or the affair. <P>She is waffling, and wafflers have more potential of working through the problems in the marriage than someone who is totally non-responsive.<P>You hang in there and keep doing the best you can do.

Hi Heartpain -<P>You have some great feedback so far and now I want to see if I can help you understand some of the things your wife says and does....<P>You wrote that bad things drove her away and good things have no impact and her response was that things don't work that way!! She's right.....they don't!! You are looking for solutions that are too quick and simple for a complex situation that took time to build up. It is not cut and dry!!!!<P>About Fri. and Sat. her saying that she wants divorce....<P>What were the circumstances? Was she feeling pushed by you? Angry? Have you changed any of your part in the problems to show her that she will not have to come back to the way things were? She is scared and doesn't want the same old - same old!! <P>When she denied this statements last nite....again, what were the circumstances? Better atmosphere between you two, perhaps?<P>For some reason, you think that she has all the answers!! She is so confused that I bet she sometimes forgets her own name!!! She does not have a clear picture about ANY OF THIS!!! Remember what goes into "affairs"? The fantasy, the selfishness, the denial, etc....<P>She did not tell the counselor that she is committed to working thigs out because she is testing the waters....she has no idea if she's committed or not.<BR>And she won't until she has some evidence that things will be better with you. You're talking and insistance that she choose NOW is just pushing her into a corner and pressuring her. Stop it!!!<P>By her insisting that you try to understand how she thinks and feels and modify your behavior accordingly - she is trying to tell you that you are only thinking about your own feelings and confusion and don't care about hers. Is she right?<P>Why are you continually trying to tell her how you feel and asking her questions about her feelings if you only dismiss her answers and refuse to understand her confusion? It comes across as only concern for yourself and total disregard for her cuz she isn't "stepping in line with what you want".<P>Let's look at the example you gave in your post.....<P>She says divorce - when she says this do you look at the whole picture and try to understand WHY she might be saying it at that moment? Does the info. that you have read and seen here come into your thinking at all? Do you realize the confusion she is having?<P>Then you go on to ask her about definitive answers to a major life altering decision......WHY? How the heck do you expect to get a true answer to this from a confused person? She is looking for support and understanding and patience....she is getting a stern person trying to push!!<P>That is why she says to make your own decision...she knows that she is too confused to make such a choice and you just won't accept that!!! So, she blows it off.....<P>I spoke with you before about not being so intense outside of counseling sessions.....doesn't sound like you let up any. Why not?<P>I know that you want a committment and you want things to start moving forward and to get on with your lives....but Heartpain, it doesn't work like that!!<BR>You can push, threaten, and try talking about this stuff all the time - but if she is not ready .... then you are pushing yourself into divorce by pushing her away!!!<P>Where's the compassion and love? Where are the actions that show her that you really love her and are willing to wait for her and help her in any way she needs? Where's the fun to show her that life will not always be so hard and confusing? Where is the sympathy for her confusion through all this?<P>Like I said...this is not just cut and dry!!! <P>There is no attempt to know how you feel? Yes, there is - she just can't do anything about it right now. She is not ready...she is scared and you might sometimes reach a point in her mind of being selfish and brow-beating until she does what you want.<P>I don't think that is what you mean to do....you want things to move along quick, that's all!! But it will not happen with your current approach!!<P>Think on this again, OK? Try to understand her confusion......<P>When the counselor didn't press her for a committment ......it was acknowledging the state of confusion and that it was not time yet to do so. That was a good thing for the counselor to do....it will come up again at some point!!<P>Perhaps you should have a counsel visit alone and go through this with the counselor....it could shed a light of light for you and help you from being so frustrated.<P>I hope that I have helped some, I truly believe that you two would be fine if you both ease up with the intensity and start enjoying what you could have in the moment. This is all a process - not a line where you need to get on one side or another.<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba<P>

If it makes you feel any better, boy can I relate to you! It is soooo hard to just sit and wait. Don't know about you, but patience has never been my strong suit. Listen to what the others have said. They are so right. We can only control our own actions. Focus on you.

TNT and Sheba gave you some GREAT advice!!<P>My H and I kept trying to do <B>WHAT WE THOUGHT THE OTHER WANTED</B> and it turned out so bad. When we both said what we really, deep inside wanted, oddly enough, it was the same thing! <P>If you still want this marriage <B>DO NOT</B> give up!! <P>Go back and read TNT and Sheba's posts... wonderful advice there!!<P>Best wishes to you!<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Toolbox -- I think you are right about OM. Friday night she told me that she had put me ahead of him...I thanked her for that, but reminded her that she had spent the entire summer telling me there was nothing there to put me ahead of...I have been taking care of myself. I have made much progress(unrecognized by W, of course). I have felt this progress and my individual therapist has seen it also. She is completely baffled by W. She told me a few weeks ago that she was sorry she couldn't help me more with the relationship as she couldn't figure things out either...<P>TNT -- You are right about doing what I want. I don't feel comfortable, good or really interested in trying to rebuild this marriage by myself, primarily because it won't work that way. She has been a disinterested bystander for years while I tried everything I knew how to get her re-involved in the relationship, going out and doing things and establishing friendships for us(as a couple, I don't help her find her own friends). She always found unforgiveable faults with the people we tried to socialize with, never wanted to go anywhere and slowly isolated herself into her own world.<P>Sheba -- Ow, Mom!!! That hurt!!! I won't do it again.....Sorry, that's how I felt when I first read your response.<P>As always, you give such good advice. Let me try to address some of your points:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You wrote that bad things drove her away and good things have no impact<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Many of the "bad" things weren't bad. Everytime we had a disagreement, she would attribute motives to my actions before we could even discuss what had happened. I could never convince her of my true motives or lack thereof once she had made up her mind.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>About Fri. and Sat<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What started the discussion was that things had seemingly been going so well, but we had still been responding to attys requests to move the D process along. I suggested that if we continued along our present path we would be divorced in a month. There are only three alternatives at this point: continue, stop, or delay. She said that she definitely didn't want opts 2 or 3. I'm sorry, but that does indicate a decision has been made. Ever since I have known her, she has NOT made any difficult decisions, she tries to let fate or circumstances do it for her and she just lives with the outcome.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>talking and insistance that she choose NOW<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We are travelling down the divorce road now whether she can accept the reality or not. Let me use an analogy...Someone is driving their car directly at a solid concrete wall. You suggest to them that they have other options: 1) stop the car; 2) turn left; 3) turn right; or, 4) continue to the wall and wreck the car. This person tells you that they have absolutely no interest in options 1-3 and no intention of even considering them. What does this mean? To me it means that option 4 has been chosen by default because no decision was required.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>you are only thinking about your own feelings and confusion<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is absolutely NOT true. This crisis time has been mostly the same of our marriage: me giving, helping when I can, supporting her when she needs it and so on. In return I get silence, deceit and lying. Marriage is a two-way street. Both parties have to participate and I give my best and a whole lot of myself forsaking many things that would be in my best interests to further hers.<P>Sorry, Sheba, I have gone on too long...I am the "betrayed" here. I did NOTHING to deserve what I have received. W is much stronger that you give her credit for. You insist that I give her all of this positive reinforcement. I agree. I need it too and have asked in extremely nice ways telling her that it would be so helpful to me and would make things nicer for both of us.<P>As always, I truly do appreciate you taking the time to comment. Your statements are thought-provoking and I will try to think this thru, but I'm afraid it's too late. We both deserve happiness and I truly hope she finds it. Being confused about what you want does not give you license to hurt others.<P>

Hey Heartpain: I guess your screen is fitting right now huh? Would you like to know what I see? Who cares, I'm going to tell you anyway! <P>I see your wife leaning very heavily on you right now. Huh? She keeps telling you to make the descision. I see a woman saying "I can not choose what I want, I don't know. Please decide for me."<P>I see your marriage right now in your hands. Do you keep with the marriage and show how much you care? or do you leave it and possibly reaffirm what your wife and you think but dread? You decide what the marriage means to you and work from that aspect. When the time comes one of two things will happen. 1. She'll see the love and caring and know what she ahs missed and become truly committed. 2. You'll have gained the strength to do what you have to do.<P>I've always heard to never pray for patience. I look around and understand why.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Sidney & Sheryl -- Thanks for your replies. Sorry, I was busy composing the great American novel in response to toolbox, TNT and Sheba while you replied.<P>Sidney -- I realize that, in general, what I'm being told is true. However, there are things in each case that make them unique. Our marital history shows me that patience and waiting on her will not work. I will not live long enough to see the end.<P>nb -- Your key is here:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>When we both said what we really, deep inside wanted<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>with the emphasis on <B>both</B>.<P>I have done practically everything she has wanted the way she wanted it for over seven months. It's time for a change.

Paul -- Thanks...W is <B>not</B> leaning on me, but OM. He is the one she goes to for advice and what advice does he give? "Do what's best for you, but we were born to be together". <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Please decide for me<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>This is not what's happening. I am constantly being accused of either trying to force her to the decision I want or trying to make the decision for her.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I see your marriage right now in your hands<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>How I wish this were true!!!!!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You'll have gained the strength to do what you have to do<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I honestly believe that this is where I am at now....Thanks again Paul.<P>

Heartpain,<P>Here is more advice . I feel I can relate to most all of your original post!!<P>I agree with Toolbox in that you need to pull back and stop pursuing your W. Yes, you ARE the one putting in all the effort right now. Yes, you ARE the one doing all the hard work. Ok, you are RIGHT, but you aren't winning your W back. I have done this same stuff - pursue, try so hard, try too hard, expected H to notice, expected H to react, expected H to change, expected H to realize he was makling a mistake with OW and come running back to our marriage, etc. Well, not a darn onhe of those things happened! <P>I read thye Susan Page book, and Michelle Weiner-Davis books, too. Also my counselor advised me to STOP doing it all. I alone can not "fix" the marriage. You alone can not "fix" the marriage.<P>But, you CAN continue to make the positive changes in your own life. You can continue to be positive and supportive to your W in the ways you most feel comfortable doing without debasing your self-respect. <P>Trustntruth tells you your W is waffling and the marriage is NOT over, and I agree.<P>Sheba and others give good advice, too.<P>I look at it this way - my H is not home, but has made no voertures to getting our D. OK, I don't want the divorce, but recognize that I need to work on my own life and happiness, too. maybe my H or your W won't come home and we will all get divorced. I don't know at this point. BGut, I know I am not ready yet to start a new relationship with anyone else. Does that mean I set my life on the back burner? NO, and you don't have to do that either.<P>If you press ahead with a D that you really don't want, what will you get? Will all the problems and feelings between you and your W be resolved or absolved because you got divorced??? No. <P>Instead, maybe you should consider a PlanA-PlanB. Try pulling back from the intensity towards your W. She might need that so she can have the time to begin reflectionon what is really important to her. Spend more time on making yourself happy, but when the 2 of you interact, still use Plan A.<P>I am trying this. I jsut started it. I felt I was doing too much giving and he is doing nothing towards us. I feel I have nothing to lose but love and respect for my H if I continued the way I was - PlanA at maximum intensity level!<P>I feel better about myself, but am still hopeful for a reconciliation with H, although nothing is cooking at this time. If H never comes home, by focusing on me, if we end up divorced, I will already have done so much to grow personally, I will be ready to move on and find someone else who will aprreciate all that I have to offer.<P>Relax, please don't let your disappointment drive you to hasty decisions, and try to keep the faith - from a distance!<P>Wishing you the best...<P>Roll Me Away

Roll me away --Thanks much. I will take all of the advice I can get, but reserve judgement on what advice to follow. Every situation is different. My therapist and the few friends that know my situation all agree that I have/am done/doing all that is humanly possible in this. Everyone has their breaking point and it's different. Many times I have seen someone here ask the question: "How long...". People can give you advice but it's up to you what you can take. Just as I don't blame W if she wants out, I don't feel that I should be blamed because for me seven months is enough rather than the two-plus years of hard time some on this board have endured.<P>She is at home, but OM is waiting in the wings with her approval to swoop in at a time of her choosing. He has all but one of the cards and I have it...history. History isn't going to be enough to turn the tide. It's only going to delay the inevitable.<P>I have Plan A'ed to death. I do not believe in Plan B. If I get to that point, I'm better off without her. Life is too short for BS.<P>I really hope things work out for you. You really show a strength that I don't have. I guess I'm not even sure I would want it. Good luck.<P><B>Sheba</B> --<BR>You really are the warrior princess and I love you to death...You have a wisdom and manner that is incredible.

Heartpain,<P>Yes, wholeheartedly I agree that you need to do what is best for you. If you can no longer go on, only you know that. I am sending support and hugs your way!!!<P>(((((((Heartpain))))))))<P>Roll Me Away