D99d:<P>I asked this question on your thread to dmac, and you may have missed it (or not cared to respond---which is OK).<P>You said in the deleted thread that your marriage is doing great. I'd love to hear more about that---what strategies you've been using to deal with the affair, and how your wife and you are rebuilding.<P>Hoping to hear good news...<P>K

D99,<P>Did you miss this post? I've appealed to you on several threads, asking you questions that would help me to understand you better, but you have flat out ignored me. This is the type of thing that would lead people like me to believe that you have no interest in respectful dialogue but are only interested in conflict.<P>I was very angry at my H for a long time, still am at times, but I am more interested now in moving forward and feeling good. Please read my post "To those rebuilding." I'd like to hear your comments. <B>Has</B> your W made these positive changes? Have you made any? Do you see yourselves and your situation as improving?<P>We'd like to know <I>that</I> side of you too.<P>Respectfully trying to understand ...... lark

K,<BR>I appreciate your questions. To answer you, I did NOT say my marriage was doing great, it is not. It would take a great leap of faith to be doing "good" after your wife has had a sexual/love relationship with her boss for 5 years..need I mention their 2 apartments they rented for their sexual pleasure?<P>So to I must tell you, my marriage is not great, I AM TRYING everyday to live with what she has done to my family. But K, it is a struggle that I have no way of knowing how will end. I respectfully tell you, that I am in terrible pain because of what she has done. Does that make me a "bad" person??? I, myself think not, my family thinks not, my closest friend thinks not...so what about you? I know that there are men and women who are capable of more forgiveness than me, are they settling for "less", or do they not have strength? I KNOW not the answer to my own question, and I will tell you that I DO NOT judge others because of how they adjust their lives to their spouse's horrible deception.<P>I hope I have given you what you wanted to glean from my experience. I wish you only the best.<P>Disgrace99(H)<P>Lark,<P>My good woman, <BR>I have not responded to you true, but <P>it was NOT a concious decision. I have a limited amount of time to write, and I must choose who/what I spend that time on. I don't know your story, except what you just wrote me (your husband is the betrayer)|.My wife has been a wonderful mother and wife since I found out, what she was doing.....she has changed....but know this, if I HAD NOT gotten proof..she would be screwing him this week, maybe more than once..so what do you feel about that?<P>This is the Truth I must live with.<P>JUDGE NO PERSON IF YOU DON'T KNOW THEIR LIFE: Let anger, pain, and hurt come to you, take it in, and try your best to Understand what has happened to this person, but do NOT judge...have sympathy, and know in your heart, that you will NEVER really know THEIR PAIN>>>>>>>>>>>>><P>I thank you for your concern,<BR>DG99(H)

DG99 -- I have read your threads for quite a while now, and have tried to stay out of the fray which seems to often occur when you have spoken out.<P>I must admit that I know nothing of you story other what you have posted on this thread, and I think it is safe to say that you know nothing of my story either.<P>With this said, I would like to comment on one thing you said in responding to K.<P>You said <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know that there are men and women who are capable of more forgiveness than me, are they settling for "less", or do they not have strength? I KNOW not the answer to my own question<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>There was a time when I would have agreed with the notion you have expressed. I have grown older, and hopefully a little wiser, and I think that anyone, man or woman, who chooses to forgive the spouse for betrayal, and chooses to rebuid their marriage rather than discarding it like a used kleenex, is showing tremendous courage and strength of not only love, but of will.<P>I understand that you may disagree with my feelings on this, and I respect your right to disagree if that is your decision.<P>I wish you peace in your endevours.<P>God Bless<p>[This message has been edited by Empty Shell (edited November 07, 1999).]

hi D99H,<BR>Good to see y9ou drop by every now and then.<BR>I hope and pray that you are searching your heart for forgiveness and are trying to find happiness. It can be done, but it takes a lot of time, patience, and a lot of energy! It sounds like you are trying, so wishing you success in your journey.<BR>You said 'I know that there are men and women who are capable of more forgiveness than me, are they settling for "less", or do they not have strength?'<BR>I do know I am not 'settling'. I have always wondered what it would feel like to settle. I found out recently but not at home-at work! Okay, I will settle for that, but only because I have a different goal and know this is only short term. I don't think I could force myself to settle when it comes to a relationship, way too important to me.<BR>Strength? Well, I think that personal strength could in this case could mean to either leave the situation or stay and find happiness. I would view a lack of strength if one did not want to stay, but did so for less than pure reasons. I don't mean to sound judgemental, nor would I think less of anyone in this situation. If that is the case, then I would wish God to give them strength to make the decision best for them.<BR>Good to see you, cl<BR>

Empty Shell, CL,<BR>I thank you both for your thoughtful replies. I will try to write you more tomorrow, when time allows. <P>Your best wishes are taken to my heart.<P>DG99(H)

DG99d,<P>I must tell you that I do see anger in most of your posts. I must also tell you that it seems that I am starting to understand exactly where you are coming from. The love I HAD for my W is slowly but surely turning into resentment and I don't like to admit it but hatred as well. I'm having some really terrible thoughts about her lately. I am not proud of this fact. Maybe it's just my mind trying to cope with the facts and telling me to move on. <P>The person that we brought into our confidence has betrayed the trust and sanctity of our marriages. I tried the "my W is temporarily insane right now" thought pattern. It worked for me for a short while. I have replayed our last 11 years over and over again in my mind. I know I was not the perfect H. She was not the perfect W. No one deserves to be cheated on. If she wasn't happy with the marriage she should have filed for divorce. I believe I could have taken that much better.<P>WOW, you say her affair lasted 5 years. Who wouldn't be hurt beyond words. No one knows exactly how you feel. No one knows exactly how I feel. Only I know how I feel and wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.<BR>I'm not sticking up for you or bashing you. I'm telling you that I think I'm heading into the same territory. <P>If this feeling stays with me I will be limiting my posts to subject matters that I can give constructive advice to. I do not want to infect others on the board with my poor attitude towards my marriage.<P>I hope both you and I can eventually release our anger and find happiness in this life.<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Medic

Hello D99,<P>Thanks for responding back to K's post. He asked the most important question,perhaps the ultimate one we should all keep on the tips of our tongues. And, thanks K for the subtle reminder to keep perspective.<P>How are we all doing? Are we making progress? After all, isn't that what we're here for?<P>D99, I've said before... I am a very lucky man. I'd been given the chance to bring my marriage to a stage of closeness I never thought I'd find. With anybody.<P>Being given the opportunity did not offer any guarantees. It took very, very hard work. It took painful efforts at opening up. I experienced hurt. It wasn't easy being vlunerable again after years of building up walls. And, yes... gradually, out of all this... I was able to forgive. And, so was Suse.<P>So, she and I are wayyyyyy down the recovery road compared to many people here. And please, I mean this with all sincerity... I don't mean to lord this over anyone. I ain't no saint! If I get so enthusiastic about what we've done it is because I feel so damn fortunate. And... it is also to give others hope.<P>I participate here because I want to make a difference. If I could help EVERYbody bring their marriage back to a wonderful place, it'd be the ultimate fantasy. It would make me feel so good. Because we could all share some joy.<P>I've learned that life ain't easy. There are times in all of our lives where we're tested. And, as best as possible we gut it out. And, I try to look for the goodness and joy in every day. For we never get them back.<P>You posed a general question regarding whether some people "settle for less". As such, I thought I'd risk a reply. In my own case, I answer "no". And, emphatically so. If I'd chosen to leave Suse, or she leave me, what would that have accomplished?<P>Having made the choice to stay, both of us have renewed our commmitment to make this the best damn life we and our kids could possibly have. We can only affect our futures. The past is already gone and all we can do is learn from it.<P>Is this settling for less? Far, far from it. She and I have sooooo much history! We've got almost 25 years invested in this relationship. I'd say that even if we weren't getting along magically there'd be quite the foundation for a future relationship. For hope.<P>I know you've been hurt. True, I don't know YOUR hurt. Just like many of us, you come here to try to learn, to try to find answers. I guess what I'm suggesting is you've got to look inside yourself too. You've got much there.<P>I believe we all have the capability to forgive. I believe we can grow and be better people. To do otherwise is to waste a life.<P>Would you be settling for less if you worked at forgiveness? Honestly? I never think so. <P>Anyways, food for thought.

D99-<P>You don't know me, and I don't know if you have ever even read a post of mine...so if you are curious and have the time, pull up my past posts.<P>Then tell me that I "do not have enough strength" or am willing "to settle for less".<P>Finding a way to keep my head high and remember that "I am my father's daughter" (a line from the movie 'Elizabeth') has taken more inner strength than I ever thought I had. To allow the circumstances of the past few years to embitter me and make me forget my worth would mean that I am willing to let the affair and the OW control me. <P>Am I pissed? Yes, but not enough to lower myself to the jr high level that my h. and she operated on for so long. What benefit would there be to that?<P>It all hurt terribly, but by the grace of God, <BR>I AM AN OAK, and I am not settling.<P>I'm sorry your situation hasn't progressed to a more happy one for you, but perhaps its partly because you are mired in the past?<BR>Oak trees live long because bend and don't break...<P>His Pearl of Great Price<P>formerly Lizzie Smith (took an ax and gave the OW...well, you get the picture)<P>------------------<P>"I have found the Pearl of Great Price"<BR><p>[This message has been edited by POGP (edited November 08, 1999).]

D99,<P>Now, don't you like this better? Respectful dialogue between all of us here? I thank you for finally responding to me, it did feel like you were ignoring me and I'm glad that wasn't the case.<P>Please know that I have never judged you. I don't know you. If you read my previous posts to you, you will note that I specifically said that <B>none</B> of us can judge anyone else on this forum merely based on our posts. There is so much more to each of us than that. I have been startled though by the anger you've expressed in some of your posts. Especially anger directed to people (Carol, et al) who you don't know. But, let's put that in the past. Communicating the way we are now is <B>much</B> better! <P>My story: my husband of 14 years had a 4 month affair with a woman he met on the job. He ended the affair, but I found out about it a few months later. So, no, they did not have a long term affair, like your W, and no, they did not share apartments, etc. However, my pain was equally debilitating to me. I was shocked, stunned and completely knocked out of my comfort zone. Despite his incredible remorse and guilt for what he'd done, I hated my H for many, many months. Yes, hated. I spent my time thinking of ways to <I>get him back.</I> Like you, I'm not the most forgiving person in the world. I have always held grudges longer than I like to admit, even as a child. Basically, I was the type of person who, "if you screw me over, that's it!" Revenge was the only thing on my mind. In fact, I even planned <I>schemes</I> that would take <I>years</I> to complete. My "favorite" revenge fantasy was for me to lead him on for years, making him think I'd forgiven him, and then when he was "comfortable," I'd leave him flat for another man. Yes, I spent a lot of my time thinking things up like this. But then something weird started happening. I started to catch myself feeling <I>happy</I> at times. So much that I actually had to <I>remind</I> myself that I was supposed to be <I>pissed</I>! Why did this happen? I feel it happened because my H continued to keep at me. Rather than allow me to keep distancing myself and wallow, he kept trying to make me feel better. He kept asking for forgiveness (begging actually), he kept depositing love units, in Harley terms. And I guess he just kept making it difficult for me to be pissed at him. I tell you, it worked. Not to say that I still don't get pissed, because I do! But he makes it hard for me to <I>stay</I> pissed. I have to give him credit for that. If he was behaving like a lot of the spouses I read about here, we'd have been through, without a doubt.<P>So, I do understand anger very well. That is why I asked you how your W has been behaving. If she is treating you like gold, then how can you continue to be angry at her? Isn't that hard to do? Don't you have to actually remind yourself to be angry? Or is the anger always at the forefront of your mind regardless as to what she's doing now? <P>Do you want to be happy? Maybe you'd be happier without your W in your life, have you thought about that? I'm one of those that doesn't necessarily believe that all marriages can or should be saved. Have you thought about life without her? What prevents you from doing that? The kids? <P>Sorry for asking so many questions, but I'm really interested in learning to understand where we all are coming from. I think you very well may have more to offer this forum.<P>Eagerly awaiting your reply.

D99h:<P>Well, I'm glad that you got a chance to answer my inquiry---although I'm very sorry that you don't have better news on the marriage front. I must have misunderstood a line in your post, and I was really hoping for some good news from you.<P>By the apartment comment, it sounds like you're still dealing with the "disclosure" and discovery phase. That I remember very well. It's a shame that you didn't have the same response to it that I did---I went into a limited "shock" for a month, and really was never consumed with anger against my wife. A boatload of disbelief instead. But I don't think that I suffered as deeply because of that response.<P>I do understand your fears of "settling". I would encourage you to try your best to learn this forgiveness that is currently eluding you. Not just for your wife's sake, or your children's sake, but for your sake as well. Don't think of forgiveness as a weakness: it often takes much more strength to forgive than it does to lash out in anger or pain. If you and your wife are able to rebuild this relationship to the marriage you both want, I will GUARANTEE that you will not feel that you've settled for anything. In the end, you will be justifiably proud of being able to overcome great odds to keep your family whole. To show someone love, even when they didn't reciprocate. Those are powerful lessons to learn---I certainly grew a lot when I dealt with all these issues.<P>And I don't think you're a "bad" person for feeling the pain. Hell, I still feel pain on days too. But learning to respond appropriately to that pain (and everything else in life) is the challenge, and I must say that I'm doing a lot better than I was 5 years ago in that regard.<P>Good luck, and God bless you and your family, D99h.<P>

Disgrace99d,<P>Our case is not as extreme as yours but I struggle with anger, resentment, etc. as well. Two books that I have found very helpful are:<P>"How Good Do We Have to Be?" by Harold Kushner and "Forgive and Forget" by Lewis B. Smedes. I suggest you read them multiple times. I have and will read them again. <P>I will include an excerpt here from Smedes' book talking about anger and forgiveness. <P>-----------------------------------------<P>Chapter 14 – With Anger Left Over<P>Is there anger after forgiving?<BR> Yes, often. It can't be helped.<BR> Some people believe that they should not feel anger in their hearts once they forgive.<BR> I do not agree. I think that anger and forgiving can live together in the same heart. You are not a failure at forgiving just because you are still angry that a painful wrong was done to you.<BR> It is terribly unrealistic to expect a single act of forgiving to get rid of all angry feelings.<BR> Anger is the executive power of human decency. If you do not get angry and stay angry when a bad thing happens, you lose a piece of your humanity.<BR> Remember, you cannot erase the past, you can only heal the pain it has left behind.<BR> When you are wronged, that wrong becomes an indestructible reality of your life. When you forgive, you heal your hate for the person who created that reality. But you do not change the facts. And you do not undo all of their consequences. The dead stay dead; the wounded are often crippled still. The reality of evil and it damage to human beings is not magically undone and it can still make us very mad.<BR> A man does not forget that his father abused him as a child. A woman does not forget that her boss lied to her about her future in the company. You do not forget that a person you loved has taken cheap advantage of you and dropped you when the relationship was not paying off. I dare say that Jesus has not forgotten that a man named Judas betrayed him. And survivors of the holocaust do not forget the hell of that experience.<BR> And when you do remember what happened, how can you remember except in anger?<BR> Can you look back on the painful moment–or painful years– without a passionate, furious, aching longing that what hurt you so much had never happened? Some people probably can. But I don't think you should expect such placid escape from terrible memories. You can be angry still, and you can have your anger without hate.<BR> Once you start on your forgiving journey, you will begin to lose the passion of malice. Malice goes while anger lingers on. When forgiving begins its liberating work, the malice that once hissed like white flame from acetylene torch begins to fizzle out.<BR> A man slowly finds himself wishing his ex-wife well in her new marriage. A father is surprised at how desperately he wants his rebellious daughter to be happy. We wish a blessing on the frail humanity of the person who hurt us, even if we were hurt unfairly and deeply.<BR> What is happening? Malice is gradually fading, just as your head gradually stops pounding after you take three aspirin. You have anger without malice–a sign that your forgiving is real.<BR> Anger minus malice gives hope. Malice, unrelieved will gradually choke you. But anger can goad you to prevent the wrong from happening again. Malice keeps the pain alive and raw inside your feelings, anger pushes you with hope toward a better future.<BR> There are three things you can do to drain the poison of malice while you use the energy of anger. They may be worth trying.<BR> First, express your malice. Be specific, nail the object of your fury down. It doesn't help to throw it at people, either. But you need to express it to somebody who can help you get rid of it. You can express it secretly to God, or to someone who represents God to you.<BR> Then you can let God handle those people you would like to manhandle in your hate. If they need teaching, let God teach them. If they need rescuing from their own stupidity, let God rescue them. If they need saving from their own crazy wickedness, let God save them. What you need is healing from the infection of malice left over from the open wounds they left in your life.<BR> Finally, you can even try a prayer for the peace of the person you hate.<BR> If you do, you may discover another secret of forgiving; you don't have to choke your anger, you only have to surrender your malice. For your sake. Malice is misery that needs healing. Anger is energy that needs direction. After malice, let anger do its reforming work. Forgiving and anger can be partners in a good cause.<P>-----------------------------------------<P>I hope this is of some help to you today. <P>- TCL

D99,<P>Hey, it’s been a while since we’ve posted to each other.<P>I pray you can do something to work through it all. Wish I had half the chance you do!<P>And no, being in pain does not make you a “bad” person. If it did, most of us here would be “bad.”<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>