Um, yes, but not to the level I want to.

You make a great point -- about needing less time. For me, however, it's the feeling of being LB'd with the anxiety/depression and the way I feel it hinders POJA or healthy negotiation and also lacking some UA time.

Ok, this may be nerdy, but when we work together on HFMs grad work, whether a research paper, or reading, or driving her to class...we enjoy that time together. It's a kind of UA time for us, really. But it does require a large time commitment.

The EN that I miss is the rec. companionship. We like to walk together, see movies, etc. but when the work piles up, that seems to be the first thing to go...and I wish we had more time for incorporating some adult social time or volunteering or a regular activity into our time.

I went through quite a bit to have my depression issues properly diagnosed. I kept a daily log to chart my moods and any events that went along with them - as well as what time of the month it was.

ADs helped me greatly - but I had an adverse reaction, no matter which I tried - in the libido dept. So, I did not want that as a long term solution. I went to a "wellness" doctor who did all kinds of lab work to figure out what my hormones were doing.

H and I get our 15-20 (if not more) UA hours in. He and I are completely in love. Yet... at certain times, I still am prone to depression. He knows much better how to help me through it than he used to. But - I must take responsibility as well. I now know myself well enough to go through certain steps that help alleviate the anxiety and depression I'm feeling - and I know specifically how to ask H for what I need. However, it always starts with me talking myself off the ledge first. I have various coping mechanisms for this. They include, prayer...reading over romantic notes/cards/emails/texts H has sent me, and a list of questions and answers I go through to put things in perspective.

Just a few months ago I was so depressed I cried for almost 2 hours straight and that was after H and I had spent a wonderful weekend together. When I realized I hadn't taken my vitamins and hormonal supplements all weekend - I immediately knew my feelings could not be trusted!

Sometimes there are other reasons than the state of the marriage that a woman is depressed.

I do not know - nor does anyone else here - if HFM is only depressed because of the state of the marriage.People can assume that because it is the #1 reason for women and depression - but it is not the only reason. Clinical depression DOES exist.

Yet - until the marriage is fixed - and you are getting in your 15-20 UA hours and avoiding LB's, etc... it cannot be ruled out that the state of the marriage is a contributor if not the cause.

I would encourage you and hfm to explore all avenues - especially since this is something that has been going on for years.

With me being in school some of our time is spent on my studies as well. Mr. Sunny had a great time going to Astronomy events with me as well as a few outings we did for my Geology class. We're both kinda nerdy too, lol. We felt it fit the bill for RC. Besides, staring at the stars and seeing craters on the moon in a high-powered telescope together is pretty darn awesome and quite romantic!

We also found a sense of togetherness by working on a committee together for one of our son's activities this past year. I considered that more FC than RC but the fact that we did something like that together was really good for us. In the past kids' stuff had always been one or the other of us. Now the whole organization sees us as this "power couple" who can get anything done and they're right. We discovered we really do make quite a team when we're both focused together on one goal!

When life is busy you have to get creative with UA time but it can be done. It MUST be done.

Thank you, Sunny!

It's been suggested here that the online course could be a great help to you. Have you and your wife discussed it?

Yes, we have.

It seems that she would prefer to use the forum for awhile before doing the online course because she just got on and started posting here and wants to give this a chance to work together, get feedback from here together.

We are getting the LoveBusters book/workbook; already have SAA and HNHN.

HFM stated she's already receiving important and necessary feedback for her, for us, to further improve the marriage.

It seems that she would prefer to use the forum for awhile....

There seems to be little doubt that she is "using" the forum, my friend.

I will leave it at that for now.

But the forum is not going to save your marriage. You guys have already shown you can't do this on your own, HFD. There is no shame in that. But there is shame in not getting help when you need it.

Please show her this post. helpformom, please get signed up on the online course and ratchet this up. Chatting on a forum is not a replacement for the necessary hard work it takes to save your marriage.

None of us saved our marriages that way and neither will you. No one saves their marriage chatting here. You and your husband have already tried and failed to do this on your own. Time to try something else!

All we can do is direct you to use the program and guide you while you are doing it. But the forum is not a replacement!!

HFM does read my thread as well, but shouldn't some of this feedback be addressed on her thread directly?

...shouldn't some of this feedback be addressed on her thread directly?

Careful, HFD, or you'll start sounding like NG!

Much of the advice/counsel SHOULD be addressed to HFM, but will NOT be, as long as you are willing to respond, and she is not!

(BTW: After I logged off yesterday, and logged on today: forty-nine additions here; one - as in almost zero, again - over there!)

Absolutely. Struggling this long is a huge indication for the online program.

AM

I will not name names, but we have THREE recent marriages in trouble who tried to use the forum as a substitute for the program. They have been here OVER NINE YEARS and their marriages are still in trouble!!! There has been no improvement in their marriages in all the years they have been here.

Case #1: after 12 years of doing nothing other than chat on the forum, wife ended up having another affair - IN THEIR HOME!!

Case #2: husband on the verge of divorce - been on the forum for TEN YEARS posting and chatting. Finally started counesling with Dr Chalmers and things are dramatically improved

Case #3: wife ready to divorce husband. Never implemented program in the 9 years she has been here. Lots of posts chatting on the forum though!!

I don't know of anyone who saved their marriage chatting on forum. Some are disclined enough to execute the program at home - MOST ARE NOT!! You already know you are not.

So, either get coaching or prepare for your marriage to be like this for the future until you can't stand it anymore.

I agree with this. What do you do when only one party is responding?

HFD;

We've just started the online program. While there isn't new INFORMATION, Dr. Harley and our coach, Sandy, have prioritized a program specific to us, which identified the areas of concern for us, and then emphasized the work we need to do in those areas. We now can tailor the plan to suit us. And, we get direct email access to ask Dr. Harley anything.

We have found that the coaching means we two can operate as a team, helping us to avoid DJ's or the feeling that one of us is pulling the other along.

Given this level of support, $1000 is a BARGAIN.

And you will be maximizing the RESULTS for the TIME you invest, so if time/scheduling is a concern, this is the most efficient way.

Why WOULDN'T you try the online program?

I will send the same message to HFM.

I am NOT disinclined to try the online program.

However, just bear with me because I HAVE been here awhile and read and discussed and listened.

What if I felt, just felt or thought that what's going on here is this: we're on our way to building the best, romantic relationship we can, but there are some impediments, and what's getting in the way of that is simply this:

1. diminished UA time (which could be a conflict until the grad program is complete) which is hindering meeting ENs

2. the presence of LoveBusters that need to be eliminated because they are hindering recovery (HFD: AOs; HFM: LBs which eminate from depression/anxiety/panic??? {I'm not even sure which type}).


If these things are not being done to their fullest?best....then no wonder we are still wallowing in the past and feeling that we're not moving forward to toward the marriage we both want.

I am NOT looking for an easier way out; just being aware of the basics of the program, wonder what if this is really the "it" going on?

thanks for letting me put this out there.

I will address this from the point of view of probably one of only few couples who have been successful at the do-it-yourself approach. Mainly because I feel all the stars really have to be perfectly aligned in order to DIY and do it right.

1. I don't think it would have been possible if I had not already gotten help for my depression.

2. When we were doing all the hard work at the beginning, we put in way more than 20 hours a week of UA time.

3. We don't have young kids at home. Our oldest is away at college and our boys were/are old enough to be mostly independent. Because things were less hectic for us than homes with young kids - we were more disciplined with assignments and such.

4. We both had an accountability mindset. We were both eager to please each other and both very much looking inward for change and not pointing fingers or trying to make excuses. Neither of us felt entitled or had the woe-is-me stuff going on. I put my big girl panties on right along side of him manning-up.

5. Being a psychology/communications major myself - I kept us on the right track because I could see the "whys" of why all this works the way it does. Too many couples find it way too easy to slough off parts that they don't like or aren't natural to them. And yes...I did lead in this way - but H was right there with me, agreeable to it all.

6. We were highly motivated when we started because we had actually separated after my discovering the A. Being that you guys have been floundering for several years, I would think it would be very hard to have or find the kind of motivation it takes to DIY without a professional involved.

Even with all of that, I still believe that we would have had an easier road if we had done the online program.

ETA: I would think it would be MUCH harder to DIY after you've already gotten entrenched in bad habits...

Believe me, I'm no expert on POJA. Just ask the vets here... But, I often find myself in the same place. A scene in a movie or tv show comes on and theres cheating going on. Now, as a guy, I normally control the remote so I typically will just change it until that scene is gone. If the topic is central to the show, I tell WW that the cheating is starting to trigger me and we normally agree to change it. If she doesn't want to, then I just get up and leave the room. We can discuss it after the show is over.

My AO's were normally about control issues. Once I learned that I can only control my behavior, I started removing myself from these uncomfortable situations.

One thing I see in your response is an expectation that she "should just get it". STOP THAT!!! She doesn't get it, so what do you do next? How can you solve it rather than try to control what "she gets". Yes, its frustrating when they don't get it. Deal with your anger and frustration and find a way to communicate better.

Listen to me... The pot calling the kettle black and all. Good luck

Action items:
1. Add disrespectful judgments to your list of love busters you need to overcome, because you just committed one there by trying to analyze the cause of your wife's love busters. Psychoanalyzing your spouse is disrespectful.
2. Read Love Busters and find out what love busters actually are and fill out the questionnaire so you can list your wife's actual love busters instead of "depression," which is not a love buster.

Trying to find the cause of a loved one's depression is a LoveBuster?

__________________________________

What would help would be if you were to find out what's causing her unhappiness and do something about it if it turns out to have something to do with your behavior.

Heh, but really, all this is a distraction from DOING.

If she isn't in agreement with the online accountability program, maybe you could make an appointment with Steve Harley so you can get some direction on how to increase her interest in working with you on your marriage.