There is a WORLD of new information in the program that he doesn't know about and has never used. For example, my husband and I slogged along for years cherry picking the program and got very little out of the program. But after we went through the program and learned how to use the POJA among other things, our marriage made a radical transformation. We just needed some hands on guidance.

Also, on the FIRST DAY of the course, the identified that the biggest problem was my IB. I had cut corners on that little lovebuster for years. But they brought it out.

When do-it-yourself doesn't work in THREE YEARS, it is time to ratchet it up and get the job done.

There is no ONE person working on his marriage though. He is not working on it. She is not working on it. So of course a marriage can't work by fairy magic. He needs to internalize that truth.

The problem with Marriage Builders is that it doesn't work unless you work it.

I shouldn't speak for both of us, but I do believe that we have learned a lot from the MB program - listening to all of you I see that we have a lot more to learn.

Hi, helpformom; it's good to see you back posting again.

It's pretty sad to me to see that helpfordad is having angry outbursts once a DAY. No wonder your marriage is not recovering. I'm sure there are other obstacles, but this has got to be the biggest impediment.

I know several people have been posting to you recommending Dr. Harley's online program. I saw you ask if the coaches in the program can help the two of you change years-old habits that are harming your marriage. The answer is YES. In particular, Dr. Harley has a no-tolerance policy regarding angry outbursts. Dr. Harley told MelodyLane's husband he would need to take anger management if he could not stop the angry outbursts - so he stopped! I was a tougher nut to crack. There are several posts visible on the private forum from both me and my wife about my angry outbursts and my progress through anger management. Dr. Harley laid it on the line to us that things would not get better if I continued to tolerate this behavior in myself. Thanks to applying this pretty rigorous standard (on both our parts - Prisca will no longer tolerate angry outbursts from me, ever again), our marriage is truly better than ever, as we were finally able to implement the rest of the program.

If you want to be in love again, the fastest route to it is Dr. Harley's expert help. We will be happy to support all the way, drawing the same lines Dr. Harley draws, to the best of our ability. In particular, I think we can give you a lot of help on how to not tolerate helpfordad's angry outbursts. This behavior is destroying the chance of happiness that you guys ought to have and deserve to have in recovery.

Markos,

I know I have my issues to resolve too. Tomorrow, I see a physician to see if some of my anxiety is from a hormonal cause. Panic attacks started after the affair. I would like to avoid AD but I'll cross that road after my appointment.

Question, are you saying you never have AO now? And, if you do, how does Prisca demonstrate that they are not tolerable?

helpformom, a few important suggestions:

1. Stay with us and keep posting. Let us know each and every time helpfordad has an angry outburst, okay?

2. Sign up for Dr. Harley's online program if at all possible. You guys really do need consistent professional help to coach you through the steps to real recovery. Real recovery includes the feeling of romantic love, does NOT include angry outbursts or demands on your husbannd's part, does NOT include dwelling on mistakes of the past, etc. It's been three years and you don't deserve to live like this any more.

3. Regarding your thread and your husband's thread, I'll pass on the same advice that was given to me when my wife started posting: read each other's threads, but post only on your own, and don't try to have a back and forth rebutting each other on your own threads.

4. Please read this article from Dr. Harley:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html
I recommend that you have a "Listen, Buster" moment with your husband. Let him know that you are not going to put up with his angry outbursts any more:

The next time helpfordad has an angry outburst, don't respond, and leave the room. He will have a lot less satisfaction from having an angry outburst in an empty room.

And more than that, you both need hands on guidance to pull out of this mess.

I haven't had an angry outburst in 9-10 months.


Prisca insisted that I leave the house twice last year after angry outbursts. I put up in the Super 8 and still can't pass it without shuddering. As a condition of returning home, I agreed that the next time I have an angry outburst I will leave the house for a minimum of four months and let the entire extended family know what has happened and why.

We had a "Listen, Buster" moment, and I understood this stuff wasn't going to fly any more.

I told her she was a great Marriage Builder.

Let me mention also that Dr. Harley himself used to have a bad anger problem. He overcame it YEARS ago and uses that experience (plus his experience running a large chain of mental health clinics for years and doing anger management therapy for a variety of people, including former prison inmates) to explain to people how to learn to never have an angry outburst again.

In addition to the coaching in the online program, I strongly recommend the radio program and the radio program archives as a source for information about this. Dr. Harley used to talk about angry outbursts practically every week!

Markos,

OMG, that last post is pretty powerful and I can completely relate. As the WS, I feel, at times, like it is an eternal punishment. It makes me feel like I am suffocating when I'm with my spouse. The constant dredging up - It's good to know that I can say enough - I don't want to talk about the details - HFD wants details and its humiliating!!! When does it end?

Markos,

Knowing my husband like I do, I know it is too early to ask this, but what if he has an AO and refuses to leave?

Have you seen this?
What to do with an Angry Husband

It ends when he starts following Marriage Builders, which uncategorically forbids him to keep bringing it up. The fact that he keeps doing this is a complete violation of how to recover. Don't stand for it. Let him do it in an empty room.

You know, I would hope that helpfordad would agree that you should not have to tolerate a single additional angry outburst. I would hope that he would agree that you do not cause his angry outbursts and that no matter what mistakes you might make you do not deserve to be the victim of his anger. (Two wrongs don't make a right, you know?) So I would hope he would agree to shut up and do nothing whenever he is frustrated, until he calms down, so that you don't have to go through that again.

As Dr. Harley says, it is abuse, plain and simple. If he does this again, walk away. Tell him when he wants to seriously engage with you in a plan of recovery in which you both correct your bad habits that are causing your marriage to be unhappy, you are more than ready to start, and that until then, he will have to have his angry outbursts alone and without you, because you are not signed up to put up with any more of them.

here

I don't want to talk about the details - HFD wants details and it's humiliating!!! When does it end?

Well, you asked......

It remains about you, still, does it not? Your "humiliation" at revealing the truth (Where is "Joseph's Letter", Brainy?) about your own actions, is NEVER to be sufficient reason not to supply HFD with that truth! (BTW: Shall we ignore for the moment the "humiliation" HFD must have felt, in the glow of "sisterhood" here? Uhhhhh, no!)

In short, it ends, my friend, when YOU get with the MB program, not parts of it as you have cherry-picked and been advised to do.

Here are some things that will facilitate an "end", or at least the exiting of the stage of "commencing".

Before HFD can "stop" bring up the affair by asking for details, he must be GIVEN all the details, everything, every messy, humiliating thing you did during the affair. YOU do not get to decide what he has the rights to - he has the rights to everything he believes he needs. So start writing. Write the history of your awful betrayal of your marital vows - when you met OM, when/how you started talking, when you broke the initial barrier that should have never been breached, when you continued through the "ultimate" boundary , where, how often, what actions, what was said, what were your plans, how you managed to hide the affair from HFD, who helped you hide the affair. Write ALL that down, most easily in a time-line fashion, and give it to him. (Hey, this is an anonymous forum - why not post the whole tale here?) Give him a limited time - a week? - to analyze and absorb the information, and come back to you with questions. Then answer his questions. Only THEN can the good doctor's advice about never bringing up the affair again (surprisingly misapplied in the posts above) be enforced.

AFTER this is done, there will be other tasks to be completed.

Now wait a minute. It has been THREE YEARS. Are you saying he does not have the details of the affair?

HFD, what say you? Do you not have the facts about the affair?

NG,

At times, I find you harsh and insulting. I don't need to post the whole fairy tale here. I wonder what Dr. Harley would say about your behavior and posts. Seems like a lot of DJ for someone who knows only one spouses thoughts. Why would I want to post on a forum in which I feel threatened and attacked. I want constructive help and feedback.

I realize that the truth will always come out in the end. I know he will find the information out some way. It can come from me or from somebody else. Karma has a way of making stuff like this happen. I would much rather it come from me, especially if I wish to rebuild our marriage. I'm not a monster. As I process all that has happened and I remember things and details, I tell him. In the beginning of this year, more thoughts came into my mind and I told him. I believe that there is nothing left to come out. Purging guilt can be very therapeutic. I'm not trying to make this about me, but clearly I WANT TO MOVE PAST THIS AND FIND HAPPINESS. Reading about MB has taught me that I didn't go "by the book" in the steps toward recovery. I realize this and I am sorry. I can't go back and change this fact now. All I can do is MOVE FORWARD NOW with this information. I am going to point out that HFD didn't go "by the book" either, so a little gentleness on your part wouldn't be a crime. I mean you come across militant.

We are going on 3 years, I've got nothing left to share with him about this time in our life. Everything detail has been given to him. I don't remember the names of every restaurant. I told him we can google locations and I'm sure names of restaurants would appear. I don't remember the exact dates of our hotel visits. I can tell him what months. I told him the names of hotels and we or I could call them and see if they have dates. I didn't register us in the hotel. The OM did and I sat in the car.

Why are you two resisting the online course so much? I just don't get it.

There must be 50 posts on your two threads telling you to do the course, and every one of them has been met with a rebuttal. Why?