You are taking that call completely out of context and comparing apples to oranges. It was a serial cheater husband who believed he was entitled to his affairs and had no intention of stopping. THAT was the only reason Dr Harley suggested any discussion of his crimes. Instead of discussing his abusive behavior - and ways to END IT - he wanted to discuss her messy housekeeping as a way to blame HER for his affairs. The WH was so abusive that Dr H felt they should separate. The WS had just ended his 10th affair and had no intention of stopping.

In this situation, Dr Harley would tell them to stop discussing the affair and STOP all lovebusters. PERIOD. If you don't get that, you don't GET Marriage Builders. NO BS is ever entitled to lovebust his spouse.

I am really astonished that you would relate that situation to this one, because I assure you Dr Harley would not.

In the case of HFM and HFD, they won't have a marriage unless they focus on ALL bad behavior in the marriage.

You do see they are not recovering don't you? Do you want them to recover or not?

It will stop when it is replaced with good feelings. I have said this a million times, if you don't create a GREAT marriage, you will have resentment about the past. When you are happy in the present, your mind does not go to the tragedy of the past.

Not to mention the professionals will hold both sets of feet to the fire, instead of just one.

(eggs + act + Lee)


Your current mood/emotion will affect what you recall.

You are taking that call completely out of context...

(No, I am not. I just re-listened to the re-broadcast.)

Principles remain principles, Mel.

That statement is what prevents biases and interpretations from interfering with analysis. (Goose, gander - same sauce)

But in point of fact, you are wrong about the case yesterday. As presented, in his e-mail to Dr. H, the WH openly stated that his complaints were about her depression, lack of attention, and hoarding behavior, manifestations of her devastation from his affair, and all arising AFTER the discovery, much as this WW has now decided that her BH's AOs are the BIIIIG problem.

Dr Harley saw right through that WH's smokescreen. Would that the folks here saw through the WW's attempts as clearly.

Sorry but you did take it completely out of context and don't understand the steps of recovery. The strategy for a couple who is 3 years beyond the end of an affair and one that is still suffering from active serial cheating is worlds apart.

The fact that you would even suggest such a thing indicates that you DON'T get it yourself.

I assure you Dr Harley would tell this couple to stop talking about the affair proton, whereas the other couple NEEDS to keep it on the front burner until and unless it is resolved.

Wouldn't Dr. Harley agree with her?

P.s. you should read Sugarcanes quotes. You can see what he tells couples about talking about the affair. That is exactly what he tells us on the private forum. Just ask yourself WHY he told Danielle, wife of serial cheater, something different yesterday..

"The purpose of full disclosure is to get the facts so that the conditions that created the affair can be identified and eliminated. The purpose of avoiding discussion of the affair after full disclosure is that it becomes, "dwelling on mistakes of the past" which is one of the four enemies of good conversation. Every time you talk about the affair, it makes withdrawals in both of your Love Banks. So I'd bring up the subject again only if it would help identify lifestyle conditions that should be eliminated that have not yet been addressed. From what you've said, I don't think that new revelations would achieve that objective, so further discussion about the affair should be avoided."http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2587147#Post2587147


"Stop talking to each other about your husband's affair, and start learning to avoid disrespectful judgments and angry outbursts. It makes it harder to put the past behind you when you talk about it. You bring the past into the present and relive the tragedy whenever it's discussed." http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2307729#Post2307729

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moderators note: DO NOT COMMENT ON MODERATED POSTS.

Reminder to posters to stick to MB principles or refrain from posting. It is not helpful to this couple to be bickering over very basic concepts. This needs to stop.

I don't think any of us can say - and doing so would be pure speculation, especially with the amount of info on hand. In other cases, even when there have been AO's, other things have been noted as the "big" problem.

This is why a professional is needed - to get to the nuts and bolts of the problem instead of speculation on diagnosis. Not that people on here can't help with principles, but diagnosis - especially with the complexities of this particular situation, needs to be left to the pros.

Well, yes, we know what Dr. Harley would advise, which is the point of the forum - to pass on his insights. This is pretty cut and dry: stop talking about the affair, and eliminate angry outbursts.

There are no circumstances I'm aware of where Dr. Harley does not identify a husband's angry outbursts as a "big problem."

Dr Harley would say the big issue is angry outbursts because recovery cannot even begin until that happens. The continual discussion of the affair is triggering his angry outbursts. When there is a problem with AOs, that has to be addresses FIRST.

"A" big problem is not the same as "the" big problem. And also - advising is not the same as diagnosing.

I bring this up for several reasons. Obviously any AOs MUST be addressed. But to not address other issues in this marriage is a big mistake. There is also depression at play here. And no matter how much is known about MB principles, only a professional can rule out clinical depression.

My mother was clinically depressed and would claim my father was "going off" on her when he was the mildest mannered person you would ever know. I think I've seen my dad commit 2 acts of AOs my entire life.

I'm not saying this is the case here. Just pointing out that there should not be rush to judgement based on such few posts by hfm.

Are hfd's AOs the cause of hfm's depression? Maybe - but maybe not. Or, maybe they are one cause but not the only cause.

I'm just cautious of grabbing onto one thing and not dealing with the totality of a situation.

But no one is saying it is the ONLY issue. It is the TOP issue. And we know why she is depressed. We don't need a "professional" for that. What does Dr Harley say is the #1 reason for depression in women?

I know it was very hard for me to let go of H's affair but I have to say, being able to control my tongue on the matter was the best thing I did for recovery - and probably the main reason we were able to do the program at home. At first it bothered me that H wouldn't bring it up in the sense that I wanted to hear again "how sorry he was" or "what a mistake it was" but he was right not to do so. There even came a time when I wanted more details. On my thread I was advised that if I had not gotten the truth fully I needed to seek it. I was also advised that I was wanting to being it up for other reasons. I'm glad I dealt with it on here rather than dragging it up with my H. It proved to be best: I already had the details I needed.

I think where this gets hard is when a FBS is suffering from PTSD symptoms because of not getting the full truth to begin with.

In this case, both parties have been guilty about bringing up the affair - not just hfd.

I can certainly see where AOs must be eliminated for recovery. I think the same can be said for depression issues.

Depression can have hormonal or other clinical elements to it as well - even in women. I know, firsthand. I'm not saying her marriage is not at play in this - but it behooves us all to not assume there are not other things that come into play as well.

I have a fantastic marriage now - but still have to deal with depression.

Absolutely. Neither of them should be bringing it up. It only brings the sadness of the past into the present.


But I want to make sure it is understood that no one here is saying that AO's are the ONLY problem. No one has said that. It is the KEY problem right now because it surely contributes to her depression and makes recovery impossible. It is impossible to have a happy marriage with someone who has angry outbursts.

It is the only issue being addressed with hfm, currently. Other than " do the online program."