That is exactly what we have told them. But that doesn't mean the coach is going to tell them anything different than what we have told them. *WE* have been told this exact same thing in our own marriages by Dr Harley. They need a coach to hold them accountable for sticking to the program. They do not have the self discipline or commitment to stick to it on their own.

And Dr. Harley also repeats these things frequently in his letters to other couples and the radio show. It's not a case by case thing.

post to my husband:

But we don't need a lot of posts by hfm to understand the first order of business: eliminating Dad's AOs.

In retrospect, I think any over-reaching that may have occurred would have been all the time spent on other issues without realizing that Dad was love-busting daily with AOs. We were not aware of that at the time. We are now, and have stopped so that we can revisit the first steps of their recovery. And the first step is to end the AOs.

It's a matter of following the steps and not skipping any.

For the record - my mother was and is a liar and master manipulator. It is not correct to assume that she felt my dad was having AOs so therefore he was - whether others saw it as such or not. The fact is, she liked to make it seem so - to garner sympathy to get people on her side. That's a big difference. I'm not saying that's the case here. When my mom sought help for her depression, she admitted this. In her depressed state she was so self-centered it didn't matter to her that she lied.

When I was depressed and not seeking help for it I was very self-centered as well.

Usually, if a spouse tells another spouse "there's a problem", there IS. Was it AOs on your father's part? I don't know. That would have to be something your parents themselves would have to disclose. To comment either way would be total speculation on my part, considering that neither of your parents is here to discuss their specific situation. No offense, Sunny, but you are relating their relationship through the prism of your role as their child. We would be speculating about them with this second-hand information.

In this case, hfm and hfd have both confirmed the existence of his chronic AOs. That's where we need to start.

No matter how how dishonest and manipulating your mother was, she probably recognized when your father was angry, even if nobody else did. As the target of his anger she would be attuned to it.

My own wife made a post here about my anger at one time, attempting to dismiss it.


I tend to "shut off" when I become angry in an attempt to prevent outburst. I go numb. I actually become very, very relaxed. My wife recognizes this, having been witness to it. To other people, I may not appear angry. My wife knows better.

Exactly! Here is what my husband said to Dr Harley:

"I realise that there is a problem on how we commicate and I will work on resolving that problem.
I am confused on the angry outburst comment though. At no time did I get angry and have an outburst. My idea of of an outburst is yelling and screaming but I guess that is not the case? Talking to Mel though I do see where she thinks it was, so I apologise And will take the approipate actions to amke sure it does not happen again. Honestly looking back, it shouldnt of been that big of deal to me and should of let it pass.
However,It seems to me that whenever I disagree with Mel, that her first commment is that I am trying to control her. Same could be said about POJA....."

What you're describing is actually what Dr. Harley says to do in response to an angry outburst. If it bugs your wife, it might suffice just to go off and do it alone.

Fred Rogers used to walk off the set of his show and play piano when he got mad, until he felt better. He made sure he was off by himself withdrawn where he wouldn't say anything that would hurt anybody.

That's stage 1. Stage 2 is I walk away, just as you describe. It used to drive my wife nuts because I refused to fight, or argue, or deal with anything if I lost my temper, and she preferred to yell, and scream, and cry - and yes, she told me this at one time. I explained to her that there was no way anything we talked about while angry would be anything other than a series of below the belt shots looking for nothing more to injure. I know I am insane if I allow my anger to boil over, it used to reach black-out levels when I was younger. I have a horrible temper, so I control it. Relaxing when it hits is now natural to me. But, sometimes it requires I shut down and reboot, or redirect.

During the first year, it meant she had to learn that if she wished to be there, she had to let me be and just be there. I had to explain to her that I could not be prodded, could not be "fixed" in those states... she tried anyway. Though, time and some self-discipline (redirection, self-busying) has reduced meltdowns from 1-2 a week for the first 6 months, 1 a month for the second 6 months, to 0 over the past 2 years.

Add to this - As Mel mentioned, people with trouble controlling emotional outbursts tend to be passionate, which is why they get emotional.

So, a rule of thumb to avoid emotional outbursts is to avoid discussion about things that a) either of us are passionate about, plus b) we disagree about.

I tend to remember a certain poster having an issue some time ago where discussion about a passionate subject led to the husband allowing himself to blurt out an AO/DJ.


If I could just remember that poster's name...

I remember my early days of recovery, before I found Marriage Builders. I would trigger and would just BLOW. I have posted before about my AOs. I will forever regret my actions (hitting my husband?? OMG. Verbal abuse? OMG. )

I was insane during these episodes. INSANE. 'Passionate' would describe me perfectly. I remember Mr. Bliss saying, after one of my rants, "I don't even feel anything anymore, when you go off on me. I've told you all I can. All I want to do is heal our marriage."

Ow. Time for MaritalBliss to get over her histrionics. That's the same time I found Marriage Builders and started reading. Thank God. Thank God I found MB and started reading.

Those outbursts did NOTHING positive for us. When I found Marriage Builders, I learned to reign myself in and get control of myself. That was critical to our recovery. Marriage Builders is what made the difference.

Markos,

In researching/reading about Lovebusters on this site, the articles and radio programs, etc., D & A, in and of themselves, are not classified as LBs by Dr. Harley. Behaviors associated or as a result of them are. Is that correct?

If so, then going through the types of LBs, when HFM is depressed/anxious/overwhelmed, the behaviors that are present:

Angry Outbursts (Yes).
Disrespectful Judgments (Yes).
Selfish Demands (Yes).
Annoying Behavior (No? this on I'm unlear about, what 'qualifes' as one, because the examples I see are small issues?).
(Dishonesty. No)
(Independent Behavior. No.)


If you (or anyone, really) have a minute to address this before I press on, I'd be most grateful.

Folks will help your wife.

Let's work on helping you clean up your side of the street now, OK?

HHH,

I am, trust me.

Markos had tasked me a few days ago to find what Dr. Harley stated about depression and how it alone is not defined as an LB.

I am just responding to what (I think) he wanted me to find out.

Thanks.

She will need to work to eliminate all three of those that you have identified. Dr. Harley has a procedure for this in his book Love Busters and there are worksheets for this procedure in the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love. Our coach strongly suggested that we ONLY communicate about love busters on worksheets, because when we tried to communicate otherwise, we always fought. The worksheets are carefully designed to keep conflict to a minimum.

You guys need to work to eliminate all three of the abusive love busters (demands, disrespect, and anger). If your wife is not motivated to do so, Dr. Harley's advice is for you to go ahead and do so, anyway, because once the love busters are gone a wife will often start to be more motivated to work on the marriage. This is EXACTLY what happened to me and Prisca.

I strongly recommend you listen to the radio show daily to help support the mindset changes that you will need in order to eliminate these habits. You will need reinforcement that this is a normal way to live and that there is a way to build a happy lifestyle and get what you need in marriage without these three love busters. I also strongly recommend the online program as Dr. Harley's coaches can help keep you motivated and on track.

In a radio show that was aired recently, Dr. Harley was saying that when a person is in a depression, they are very often not open to receiving Love Bank deposits, nor are they particularly interested in making Love Bank deposits.

He also said that it's difficult to be around someone who is depressed, because the experience is not very enjoyable for the one who is not depressed.

A spouse's depression in and of itself may not make them very enjoyable to be with, but it's not defined as a Love Buster. It's what can often come out of a depression that is a Love Buster.

When my H was in a long-standing depression, caused by a no-win situation with his career, he began having Angry Outbursts frequently. I felt badly for him being in a depression, but the Love Buster was the AO.

I've had anxiety disorder and even took meds for it. I wasn't a lot of fun to be around until the meds kicked in, but there were no actual love busters happening. Once my life style changed for the better, no more anxiety.

You are essentially correct. Behavior is a love buster. Lack of behavior is not. So, blowing up at you, cursing your mother, and going after you with a frying pan is a love buster. (I know helpformom does not do this!) Feeling moody and depressed because life is not happy is not a love buster; it is a feeling.

Tricky part: judging feelings is a love buster. It's a disrespectful judgment. Example: "You should get help and go to a doctor so you don't feel this way." That's a disrespectful judgment.

Digging into the causes of love busters can also be a disrespectful judgment. Example: "You're saying that because you're having PMS." Try it and you're dead, Pal. If your spouse is love busting you, it's up to them to find out how to stop it, not you.

Regarding marital problem solving in general, Dr. Harley takes what he calls a "concentric circles" approach: try the easiest solution first, the one most likely to work. If it does not work, then move further out to try more unusual solutions. For a depressed wife, Dr. Harley's first solution is to eliminate the love busters and begin spending fifteen hours a week together with fun, conversation, etc. If that does not work or is impossible, then we start to look out for other solutions.

Here's my recommendation: get on antidepressants yourself, get into the online program and rigorously eliminate your three abusive love busters (demands, disrespect, and anger), and start following the POUA to the letter. Then see if your wife's depression doesn't lift. It is possible that if you show this level of energy and effort, she will be motivated to have herself checked out if she feels that there is a more serious problem. But it is also extremely likely that her depression will lift and that she will be motivated to join you in ending demands, disrespect, and anger.

Markos,

Thank you. Actually, you are very close to the mark on several points (...it's not a frying pan any more ha, ha...).

HFM will self-admit that the D & A pre-date HFD, and even in our romantic stage of dating pre-marriage, the bouts of D & A regarding college, career, family (non-HFD stuff) existed. And for years, I often stated "I'd love it if...", and not "You should..." regarding it.

Sadly, however, my own failings not only added me to that list in our marriage -- it seems to have rocketed me to the top of it.

We just discussed ADs today -- and I am open to trying them. HFM is indeed getting herself checked out as well, but I will leave it to her to discuss, if/when she is comfortable.

And we are in agreement here: we need a stringent plan of eliminating our LBs (with the LB worksheets/questionnaires & online program) and our UA time commitment.


We've both had enough of not being in as happy a marriage as we want to be in -- but, luckily, we want that with each other.

It's very encouraging to see you reading and researching, dad!!!