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Depression can have hormonal or other clinical elements to it as well - even in women. I know, firsthand. I'm not saying her marriage is not at play in this - but it behooves us all to not assume there are not other things that come into play as well.
I have a fantastic marriage now - but still have to deal with depression. The TOP reason for having depression in women is a bad marriage. No one here is trying to diagnose the reason, though, so I am confused why this is being brought up? We surely can all agree that an unhappy marriage where angry outbursts are routine does not HELP depression.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Are hfd's AOs the cause of hfm's depression? Maybe - but maybe not. Dr. Harley would say that it is VERY LIKELY. Depression can have hormonal or other clinical elements to it as well - even in women. I know, firsthand. So do I. I've had hormonal depression, too, as well as postpartum depression. A woman's relationship with her husband is STILL the number one cause for depression, and it is VERY LIKELY that HFM's depression will go away once they actually start recovery. This is pure Dr. Harley, Sunny. Why are you arguing it? We all know that it is entirely possible that hormones or another clinical problem is the cause, but it is not likely given what has been going on for the past 3 years.
Last edited by Prisca; 05/18/13 01:46 PM.
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In this case, both parties have been guilty about bringing up the affair - not just hfd. Absolutely. Neither of them should be bringing it up. It only brings the sadness of the past into the present. I can certainly see where AOs must be eliminated for recovery. I think the same can be said for depression issues. But I want to make sure it is understood that no one here is saying that AO's are the ONLY problem. No one has said that. It is the KEY problem right now because it surely contributes to her depression and makes recovery impossible. It is impossible to have a happy marriage with someone who has angry outbursts. It is also impossible to do recovery right when one party is depressive and anxious. And while it may be assumed that the elimination of AOs will cure that - I can assure you it won't if there are other things factoring into that depression and anxiety. Not to mention - there are lots of other LBers that probably need addressing.
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"A" big problem is not the same as "the" big problem. And also - advising is not the same as diagnosing.
I bring this up for several reasons. Obviously any AOs MUST be addressed. But to not address other issues in this marriage is a big mistake. There is also depression at play here. And no matter how much is known about MB principles, only a professional can rule out clinical depression. But no one is saying it is the ONLY issue. It is the TOP issue. And we know why she is depressed. We don't need a "professional" for that. What does Dr Harley say is the #1 reason for depression in women? It is the only issue being addressed with hfm, currently. Other than " do the online program." No, not at all. Anger is a KEY problem, however, we have talked to them both about not talking about the affair among other things. It has to be a key focus because it does have to be addressed and corrected BEFORE recovery can get underway. Just because focus is being placed on his Angry outbursts does not mean it is the ONLY issue.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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It is also impossible to do recovery right when one party is depressive and anxious. And while it may be assumed that the elimination of AOs will cure that - I can assure you it won't if there are other things factoring into that depression and anxiety.
Not to mention - there are lots of other LBers that probably need addressing. You don't talk about "other lovebusters" until the angry outbursts are CORRECTED, though. That has to be corrected FIRST or this is a non starter. And very likely the cause of her depression.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Not to mention - there are lots of other LBers that probably need addressing. Let me put this another way. It is not SAFE to discuss other lovebusters UNTIL the angry outbursts are under control. Can you imagine trying to negotiate annoying habits with someone who has AOs? Can you learn negotiation skills with someone with an anger problem? NO! So when there are AO's, that has to be arrested so the rest of recovery can take place.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Are hfd's AOs the cause of hfm's depression? Maybe - but maybe not. Dr. Harley would say that it is VERY LIKELY. Depression can have hormonal or other clinical elements to it as well - even in women. I know, firsthand. So do I. I've had hormonal depression, too. A woman's relationship with her husband is STILL the number one cause for depression, and it is VERY LIKELY that HFM's depression will go away once they actually start recovery. This is pure Dr. Harley, Sunny. Why are you arguing it? We all know that it is entirely possible that hormones or another clinical problem is the cause, but it is not likely given what has been going on for the past 3 years. I'm not arguing Dr. Harley. I'm stating the fact that the depression issue needs to be dealt with on its own merit - aside from the AOs. There is a lot of over-reaching going on here, based on minimal posts by hfm. But alas, my phone is dying and I can't go into all of my thoughts in detail at this juncture. I can only say, if I had just left it all on my H to be a great husband and not taken the bull by the horns with my depression - and checked out every avenue, taking personal responsibility - I would be divorced at this point.
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There is a lot of over-reaching going on here, based on minimal posts by hfm. I disagree completely. If you feel that her depression needs to be focused on, no one is stopping you from addressing that. That doesn't mean that angry outbursts are not a KEY part of this problem. It is no surprise that she is depressed given the sad state of their marriage. Anyone would be depressed if they had an unhappy marriage. People in happy marriages are rarely depressed, after all. And once again, what we are telling them is EXACTLY what Dr Harley tells other couples in similar situations.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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It is the only issue being addressed with hfm, currently. Other than " do the online program." There is no reason to address the rest of the program as long as AOs are going on. Dr. Harley says that recovery is IMPOSSIBLE with AOs going on, and he doesn't even recommend that EN be met as long as it is a problem. Early on, I came to recognize that angry outbursts are probably the most damaging thing a spouse can do in marriage. I say this in spite of my recognition that infidelity is also a very damaging behavior. But I'm often more optimistic about the recovery of a marriage that has suffered from infidelity than than recovery of a marriage that suffers from angry outbursts. The primary reason that angry outbursts just about eliminate the hope of marital happiness is that even if they are very infrequent, they prevent a couple from solving their problems because the threat always hangs over every conversation. The first guideline for marital negotiation is to make the discussion pleasant and safe, and an angry spouse fails that very first condition, making the rest of it impossible to implement. Angry spouses simply create an environment that makes it impossible to make marital adjustments. That's why I advise couples with multiple problems that include anger to overcome the anger first, and then focus on the rest of the problems later. "First off, angry outbursts by either spouse prevents recovery. No marital problems can be solved if one spouse has even a very occasional angry outburst. Whatever the anger is related to, it makes a solution impossible." I usually recommend that overcoming angry outbursts, and all other forms of abuse and control (demands and disrespectful judgments) be eliminated before trying to resolve conflicts, or even trying to meet emotional needs. Your sincere effort to please a controlling and abusive husband puts you in a dangerous position both emotionally and physically. So until your husband learns to control his temper, I wouldn�t even consider trying to meet his emotional needs. "I regard angry outbursts as the worst Love Buster. That's because it's not only physically and emotionally dangerous to the other spouse, but it completely eliminates the possibility of marital problem solving. For most couples we try to help, if they can't stop their angry outbursts, nothing else works. They can't follow the Policy of Joint Agreement and they can't follow the Policy of Undivided Attention. Without those two rules in place, there's no hope for a satisfying marriage.
So you must do everything in your power to stop all angry outbursts completely."
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Sunny, if you know that angry outbursts and fighting in a bad marriage CAUSE depression in women, why would anyone focus on other reasons? Psychologists know that the #1 cause of depression in women is a bad marriage. If that cause is eliminated, then of course, one looks to other causes. But depression can be managed by anti-depressants regardless of the causes.
Angry outbursts and an unhappy marriage certainly don't help her depression. We do know this.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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There is a lot of over-reaching going on here No, there is not. It is ridiculous to say we are over-reaching when a poor relationship IS THE MOST LIKELY CAUSE of her depression.
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Thanks Prisca. Sunny, do you see why we are focusing on angry outbursts instead of other lovebusters? "Angry spouses simply create an environment that makes it impossible to make marital adjustments. That's why I advise couples with multiple problems that include anger to overcome the anger first, and then focus on the rest of the problems later.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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And it's time to get to the coaching center and get done what needs to get done to move this marriage to the place it could - and should - be. You realize the coaching center is different than taking the online course, right?
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"A" big problem is not the same as "the" big problem. And also - advising is not the same as diagnosing.
I bring this up for several reasons. Obviously any AOs MUST be addressed. But to not address other issues in this marriage is a big mistake. There is also depression at play here. And no matter how much is known about MB principles, only a professional can rule out clinical depression. But no one is saying it is the ONLY issue. It is the TOP issue. And we know why she is depressed. We don't need a "professional" for that. What does Dr Harley say is the #1 reason for depression in women? It is the only issue being addressed with hfm, currently. Other than " do the online program." Right, the most important thing she can do for their relationship right now is to put him on notice that she will no longer tolerate his angry outbursts.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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There is a lot of over-reaching going on here, based on minimal posts by hfm. No, we are taking hfm's complaints completely seriously, which is the proper response. And we need to push dad to take them just as seriously.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app! Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010 If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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Are hfd's AOs the cause of hfm's depression? Maybe - but maybe not. Dr. Harley would say that it is VERY LIKELY. Semantics, but - HFD's AOs are wrecking the marriage, dwindling his LB$ balance with HFM, and THAT is very likely a contributor to her depression. Depression can have hormonal or other clinical elements to it as well - even in women. I know, firsthand. So do I. I've had hormonal depression, too, as well as postpartum depression. A woman's relationship with her husband is STILL the number one cause for depression, and it is VERY LIKELY that HFM's depression will go away once they actually start recovery. This is pure Dr. Harley, Sunny. Why are you arguing it? We all know that it is entirely possible that hormones or another clinical problem is the cause, but it is not likely given what has been going on for the past 3 years. Not to mention, a holistic approach to depression would include non-medical/non-pharmacological interventions first to eliminate them as possibilities. If the program is implemented and adhered to and the depression still remains, then referral to a clinician/diagnostician would be more than appropriate. Even with a clinical diagnosis, maintaining a healthy marital relationship would be part of the Plan Of Care. In other words, there is NO reason to postpone improving the marital situation.
"An expert is a person who has made all the mistakes that can be made in a very narrow field." - Niels Bohr
"Smart people believe weird things because they are skilled at defending beliefs they arrived at for non-smart reasons." - Michael Shermer
"Fair speech may hide a foul heart." - Samwise Gamgee LOTR
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I have 1% battery left - so I'm just going to say this: of course marital improvement should not be postponed and is priority! And of course AOs should be eliminated! The over-reaching statement was because I do not see how their whole dynamics can be assessed from the limited posts of hfm. And I think it is inappropriate to call my post ridiculous. As I stated - my mother's depression made her feel my dad was "angry" and he most certainly was not committing AOs. Therefore - I felt a professional should be the one to assess cause and affect here.
Depression is most likely caused by marital unhappiness - ok then: both parties have responsibility in that state of the union and both parties should address their issues. Right? It's not AOs are the cause of depression. And that's if you leave any other circumstances or clinical reasons out of this. Hfd has been expressing the need for hfm to address her D&A for a long time .... And I doubt the depression has only been for 3 years. I'm sure it's been longer.
I'm not trying to absolve hfd of his need for elimating AOs. But even Mel said that in the first session her coach pointed out her IBs as the/a big issue. So - even if her H had to eliminate AOs first, she was responsible for her IBs.
I've only said that I think a holistic approach - with a professional - would be best in this situation rather than only pounding hfd about ao's and not telling hfm to put her big girl panties on and do some work too. I'm pretty sure dad's love bank is in the red too. It is going to take both of them in there fighting for this marriage.
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I'm not trying to absolve hfd of his need for elimating AOs. But even Mel said that in the first session her coach pointed out her IBs as the/a big issue. So - even if her H had to eliminate AOs first, she was responsible for her IBs. Not at all. What I said was that they identified my IB's on the first day. They didn't know about his AO's until later. Here is what Dr Harley said to us when he was told about his AO's: MelodyLane: There are two separate issues that should be addressed in your marriage: angry outbursts and independent behavior. The more important of the two is the angry outbursts.
The trigger for your husband's angry outburst is your independent behavior. It's the reason for his angry outburst, but it's no excuse. Your husband should attend anger management training until he can control his anger under all circumstances, regardless of how frustrating they may be to him. My position on this issue is repeated throughout my books, articles and radio show. Anger solves no problems -- they create new ones.
Your husband should learn to avoid angry outbursts under all conditions, even when you violate the POJA. But you should also work toward asking him how he feels about the decisions you make before you make them. I understand that you may feel you did ask him, but you should not take his silence as an answer. Look for enthusiasm. As you can see, he focuses FIRST on the angry outbursts. I've only said that I think a holistic approach - with a professional - would be best in this situation rather than only pounding hfd about ao's and not telling hfm to put her big girl panties on and do some work too. I'm pretty sure dad's love bank is in the red too. The only professional help they need is the help of a MB coach to help them stick to this program. The problems in this marriage are nothing more or less than any other marriage. This is a typical, basic bad marriage that has been damaged extensively by bad behavior on both sides.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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The over-reaching statement was because I do not see how their whole dynamics can be assessed from the limited posts of hfm. He is having 1 AO a day. They are still talking about the affair. That is all the information we need to assess what needs to be done. As I stated - my mother's depression made her feel my dad was "angry" and he most certainly was not committing AOs. Sorry, but your mom was right according to Dr. Harley. This example is anecdotal and is NOT marriage builders. Dr. Harley states that if one spouse feels the other is having an AO, there is no debate. He IS. If HFM says he is having AOs once a day, he IS. That's how Dr. Harley handles it. Therefore - I felt a professional should be the one to assess cause and affect here. We already know what he's going to say about this, because he makes it VERY CLEAR. Hfd has been expressing the need for hfm to address her D&A for a long time .... And I doubt the depression has only been for 3 years. I'm sure it's been longer. She cannot make him stop the AOs or fill her lovebank. She cannot address this. He must. She can get on AD, but the issue will still not be addressed until HFD does what he needs to do. So - even if her H had to eliminate AOs first, she was responsible for her IBs. Who has said that HFM is not responsible for her own Lovebusters? What has been said is that the AOs MUST be taken care of first, because that's WHAT DR. HARLEY SAYS TO DO IN SITUATIONS LIKE THIS. I've only said that I think a holistic approach - with a professional - would be best in this situation rather than only pounding hfd about ao's and not telling hfm to put her big girl panties on and do some work too. I'm sorry, WHO has told HFM to sit by and do nothing?
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Yes.. By professional I meant MB coach. That's where I started with this whole discussion - with them needing to take all this to an MB professional.
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