I would like to hear some opinions in hopes to get a fair perspective on an issue I have.

Last year my wife started to become friends with an employee of her's. My wife is 30 (I'm 28) and he is about 23. I was cautiously aware of their friendship - but didn't make anything of it. I trust my wife and I believe she would never need permission to make friends with someone. One night my wife and I decide to go shoot pool with him and another person from her work. I believe his was the first and only time she saw him outside of work.

We had fun that night and we stayed out a little too late. I was sober as the DD while my wife got a little tipsy and her friend/employee was trashed by the end of the night. He could barely walk and somehow my wife convinced me it would be better to let her drive his car instead of calling him a cab. When we got to his place they spent an uncomfortable amount of time getting out of his car. My gut told me that something was going on, but that night my wife insisted nothing happened. We had an argument from it and I decided to let it go.

About 2 weeks later I happen to catch a text from him to my wife that was a kiss emoticon. I brought it up and she denied and lied about it. She deleted the text history and continued to lie. So I went to the service provider and looked up the text history only to find out there were about a hundred or so texts a day between them since the night.

I brought this up to her, and again she was adamant that nothing happened or was going on. Through all of this she was on the attack, accusing me of invading her privacy and not trusting her. It took me about two more weeks to finally get an ounce of truth out of her. She still claims that she doesn't remember the drive with him (too drunk she says now!) and that her best guess is that he MIGHT have tried to kiss her. But he was drunk and didn't know what he was doing.

Even though she never really took ownership of doing anything wrong, I think I made my stance perfectly clear and she understood that being friends with him was harmful to our marriage and could possibly end it. It has been about 5 months since the last time she talked to him in any form. Fortunately she was promoted to a new job and doesn't work with him. He even had a girlfriend with him at their company party who was carrying his child. So I am comfortable that he is no longer a threat.

I really had no one to turn to during all of this. I didn't want any friends or family being judgmental of her, and she had me convinced at points that I was accusing her wrongfully.

So what do some of you think? At the very least I know they kissed and talked behind my back a lot. Should that be chalked up as a learning curve to marriage or a life lesson. Or was it cheating? Should I continue to be skeptical and on alert or let it go? Should I bring it up again in hopes that she might be more open or honest about the whole thing? I wouldn't have a clue how to even do that.

"Invading my privacy" is fogbabble from a wayward
Privacy is what you want when using the toliet, secrecy is what you want when you are doing something wrong

And his having a girlfriend doesn't mean he's no longer a threat. A guy who would kiss/otherwise a MARRIED woman has zero morals.

Sorry for the reasons that brought you here.

Yes, your wife was most certainly being unfaithful. She exhibited very poor boundaries around men.

The first thing you need to understand is that none of us should be trusted. It's unwise to blindly trust the other. We are ALL wired to have affairs, and if we don't plan a way to avoid them, we will find it easy to fall into one.
So how to prevent another affair?

First, you should go ahead and put a keylogger on your wife's computer and quietly snoop. It's actually encouraged on MB. You may find nothing at all, now that the affair seems to be over, but do not blindly trust again. Do not mention anything you find, if you find anything. Come back here with your concerns, and we'll help you.

You and your wife should begin right now living an integrated and transparent lifestyle. Your wife has poor boundaries around men, especially, it seems while drinking. Any of the conditions that led to the affair need to be eliminated.

You two should go out together, alone, for a minimum of 15 hours per week. Spend all your nights together.

You and your wife should both learn to live with Extraordinary Precautions, which will prevent affairs. One of the EPs is to NEVER have a friend of the opposite sex. Never. That's how most affairs begin.

Have you read through the basic concepts on this website? They are a great place to start.

Dr. Harley is an expert on infidelity, and many of us have been through what you've been through...and worse. Many of have recovered marriages by following MB principles.

How long have you been married?

I was the WW, and though I'm to recouvery, I agree with NebDane - "a WS has NO privacy" - this is a concept I'm still adjusting to but I'm learning that if I WANT to fix my marriage, this is something I need to do.

A faithful spouse has no privacy, either. Dr. Harley's position is that privacy in marriage is just a bad idea all around. It interferes with bonding and being one (being in love). And it gives the potential for somebody to develop a secret second life which would be incredibly offensive and hurtful to their spouse.

Dr. Harley and his wife Joyce have lived this way for fifty years. Neither of them has ever had an affair - they just live this way because this is one of the things that people who have good marriages do. Dr. Harley observes all of the extraordinary precautions he recommends to his clients who have had an affair. Not as a result of an affair in his past, but to prevent one! And to enable having a good marriage with his wife.

A faithful spouse doesn't NEED "privacy." I have never committed adultery and it would never ocurr to me to need "privacy" unless I was hiding something. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

Your wife had an affair and will have another one unless you a) get all the truth about this one and b) eliminate the conditions that led to her affair. She has pisspoor boundaries around men; that is why she had the affair.

Bri,

So what do some of you think? At the very least I know they kissed and talked behind my back a lot. Should that be chalked up as a learning curve to marriage or a life lesson. Or was it cheating?

No this is emotional and physical cheating plain and simple, 100s of text messages is serious.

That your WW would risk an affair with a subordinate shows how reckless she is and how powerful her addiction to this OM is. You seem to imply they both still work for the same company?

Do you have children? If so I would suggest you get a polygraph for your WW, as you may want to save the marriage for their sake.

At the very least you need to expose this to the OMs girlfriend? Do not warn, threaten or delay.

God Bless
Gamma

Wow! First off, let me just thank all of you for the responses. It is appreciated very much.

It is very reassuring to hear such definitive opinions that it was a big deal and in fact an affair. I have been riddled with self reflection and doubt that I was the one causing the problem. That I was overreacting and not being a good, trusting husband. Thank you all.

I have browsed through the site for a couple of weeks now trying to get a feel for it. Although one thing I haven't found yet and maybe someone could point me toward is a list of acronyms. I can infer most of them but not all of them.

There were a few comments on privacy. While I am glad to hear that I was not doing anything wrong by digging deeper into the truth on my own; I struggle to grasp the holistic view on trust and privacy. Even if I resolve the guilty feeling of "invading her privacy" when I believe I need to find out the truth on my own. I don't think the ideal marriage would be to constantly spy on each other. Pardon my accountant side speaking: but I believe it would be best to get to a level of trust that random 'audits', in addition to digging deeper into specific red flags, is enough to keep a healthy and faithful marriage. But I have no problem admitting I have been wrong before

Karmasrose & Gamma. As far as the other guy goes: I understand that HE should NEVER be trusted. But I don't consider him a threat at this point because he and my wife haven't communicated at all since this all came to surface. I have checked any and all modes of communication without my wife knowing to be sure of that. They work for the same company but he works night shift at a retail store while she has been promoted to the head office. And to my knowledge, he was single at the time this all happened so there should be no need expose his lack of morals.

LongWayFromHome: We have been married 2 years. We don't have any children yet. I think our relationship naturally encompassed many of the characteristics outlined by MB. Prior to this affair and currently, my wife was/is quite transparent and open with her privacy. And I hope to learn even more ways to improve it. Also, she is not very tech savvy so it is somewhat easy for me to check up on things if I think I need to. BTW: what did you mean by:
"You two should go out together, alone, for a minimum of 15 hours per week. Spend all your nights together."
Are you saying we should go out together or alone?

MelodyLane: "a) get all the truth about this one" - That is the trouble. There is no way for me to be certain I got all the truth. I have exhausted all my known avenues to look into it on my own. And the most 'truth' I can get from her is that she agrees that it is likely she might have kissed him. But she won't even confirm that. It appears my only option is to accept it.

This has to be a deal breaker. And let me explain why. If you don't know, you will not give up until you do know. Even if it takes 30 years. You will not have any peace until she tells you the full truth. Your resentment will grow and grow until you eventually divorce her. Don't believe me? We have had men who came on this forum 30 years after the fact who still thought about it EVERY DAY. And the longer she lies about it, the harder it will be to get over it because lying compounds the crime.

Simply put, welcome to a death of a thousand cuts if you don't get the truth. You should not settle for that. Tell her you have to have the truth and will give her one last chance to come clean. And then tell her you have an appointment with a polygraph tester for her.

You can't have a happy marriage based on a lie. You would be better off getting divorced.

Another important reason to get the truth is that unless she learns her lesson from this affair, she will have others in the future. If she got away with sweeping this one under the rug, she knows she can others and you won't hold her accountable. You don't help HER or anyone else by allowing her to sweep this under the rug.

Telling you the full truth about your own life is not optional. You should never accept that. Here is what Dr Bill Harley, founder of Marriage Builders says about this:

here

"The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted." - That line really sunk in considering I had a dream/nightmare concerning the topic last weekend.

Any tips on how to approach the topic again then? I want to give her the best shot at fully disclosing the information prior to reporting to polygraph or divorce.

I wish I found this site first. It seems like I missed out on the opportunity to handle it all correctly from the start and now I am playing clean up.

List of Acronyms: Here


At first, after the discovery of an affair, the BS usually checks constantly to see if there is anything more to be concerned about. Checking and finding nothing actually serves to BUILD trust. When snooping consistently finds nothing, trust is built.

After a while of this, the spouse feels comfortable enough about the marriage and the trust has been built, so that "Trust but Verify" becomes the norm.



So it sounds as though you have been pretty good about meeting her needs. Is this true? Would she agree?

Have you created a list of Extraordinary Precautions for her to follow? EPs are so important for BOTH of you to protect the marriage and keep it safe.


Yes, my wording was confusing. I meant that the two of you should go out together, as a couple, with no one else in your group to distract you from each other.

Have you seen this article: The Policy of Undivided Attention

Yes, make an appointment for a polygraph test. Two days before the test, tell her about the appointment and let her know you are giving her one last chance to come clean before the test. But that you fully expect her to pass the test in order to continue in the marriage. A marriage that is based on lies and secrets cannot ever be successful and you don't want that for either of you.

Typically a WS will AGREE to the polygraph the first day in the hopes that their agreement will influence you to cancel the test. When she sees that won't work, she will try the moral outrage card "if you don't trust me, then we shouldnt' be married!! I would rather get divorced!!" When she sees that this won't work for her, she will break down and spill her guts and agree to take the polygraph. THAT is typically how this plays out.

LongWayFromHome: "Trust but Verify" was my philosophy. And at this point I have done enough monitoring to establish some trust again.

Yes, I believe we have done a good job meeting each other's needs. Another aspect I failed to mention: at the time she began friendship with OM I was working extra (6 days a week) and going to class 1 night a week for a Master's degree. And at the time, her job required her to work varying hours including some 3rd shifts. So as much I made an effort to meet her needs we were simply less available to each other. We were still spending quality time together, but it was less than usual.

As far as extraordinary precautions, I didn't create a list of even know of that term when we discussed the topic. But some of the EP we/I took were:
Once established she cut off all communication from the OM.
I kept a close eye on all her communications.
I met with a therapist.

I think more formal EP might need to be established

Do NOT have any kids until this is resolved.

You need the truth. Or you divorce her.

I'm sure Melody was channeling me when she wrote this. I'm surprised she didn't mention me by name.

Been there, done that, and got the blood-soaked T-shirt with the accompanying dagger holes in the back. You're setting yourself up for an emotional ache that will metastasize over time and eat away your soul and your marriage. Your wife was sober enough to drive, but can't remember what happened in the car? Your wife is lying to you bri, and not even creatively. Instead, she's attributing to you the same regard she gives to your house plants, where she waters and feeds them what she wants, when she wants, and expects them to sit there, make her look good, and not drop too many leaves or attract bugs.

Demand the truth daily, and do not stop until you get it. It's the only way you'll have the peace that comes from living in the light of truth. If you fail to do so, in addition to the emotional (and probably physical) toll it's going to extract from you, the enduring message to your dear wife is:

Honesty is the first step to establishing trust, though. You can't trust her when she is lying to you about the details of the affair. She can't have secrets with the OM to which you are not privy. That is a non starter. A marriage cannot survive based on lies and secrets.

So it seems clear that I will need to pull the band aid off this one in hopes that we can get it heal correctly. For some reason the idea of a polygraph seems intimidating. I obviously wish there were another way... but I have no way of being able to tell if she genuinely opens up on the subject or if she attempts to feed me lies in hopes to avoid further confrontation.

On a side question: did I approach this wrong at the beginning? When I saw the first text that started all this, I didn't tell her what I knew. I just asked her a series of questions and tried to lead her to tell the truth on her own. Much to my dismay she broke off from the conversation to use the bathroom in order to delete the texts. And when I knew about the extensive text history, I did a similar thing. I asked her to be honest and tell me if they talk much. I already knew the answer so I thought that if she was caught lying she would realize it's time to talk about it all. Bad move?

A poly isn't needed if you have a repentant spouse who willingly spills the truth, even the most unpleasant parts. Any time you have someone who is trying to hide the full truth, to which their BS is ENTITLED, a poly is the fastest road to the needed truth.

A transparent lifestyle isn't a punishment when there has been an A. If a transparent lifestyle is maintained from the beginning, the M will be protected from adultery. It's what everyone should do, not what punishes bad WS's for cheating.