To me it's semantics, but I may be way off.

My husband had an affair. It was several years ago, but he is just now sharing details and we are working well on repairing and strengthening our marriage. I feel blessed that he is talking, and talking freely with no snotty attitude (only remorse

Here is the issue. He said "I only had touched her a couple of times, we only had sex maybe a couple of times, 2-3 at most and it meant absolutely nothing to me!"
Then over the weeks I have asked different questions and I eluded to oral sex (blow jobs) and said did she ever give you oral sex. Yes, apparently about 10 times!!! But he said "I NEVER touched her during those times, I never wanted to touch her, just get my fix and be done"

WHAT??? I am very much not over reacting because to me this is a big BIG deal. I want to be able to continue to talk about this, but if I go crazy it will only create problems. It's just not helpful. But WOW!

Please help me understand. Please! I really wonder how many other people do not consider him never kissing her, touching her hands, holding her hands, only unzipping his pants for oral sex isn't cheating?

He freely admits cheating with "sex" a couple of times but totally left out the oral, like it didn't count. Really my biggest concern is if that is justified, then how and when would it ever stop, or not happen if it's not cheating.

Help!

Welcome to MB and sorry that he tries to "minimize" what he's done. He had a PA.

Have him take a polygraph and get all your questions answered and follow the MB plan for recovery.
Polygraph Testing

Ah, yes, wish I wasn't here either!

I am looking for assistance on how his mind may be working to not call that part an affair. I want to see if anyone can give me a working idea, so I know what questions to ask or ways to get him to understand why oral is cheating as much as anything (even kissing to me is PA).

He is open right now to really and truly understanding and wants to talk but how can I explain all physical is cheating. Any idea how something like this is rationalized?

I have been on MB for about 1 year now and we are working in the right direction, hence his willingness to talk.

Have you seen this?
What is an Affair?

Justfree,

consider him never kissing her, touching her hands, holding her hands, only unzipping his pants for oral sex isn't cheating?

This is non-sense! He is minimizing, it was longer, with more encounters, more emotionally involved, spent more money on her, than he is admitting to.

Did you speak with the OW to get her story it won't match up with your WHs and will give you leverage to get the truth out of WH. Your WH and this OW still share intimate secrets which you don't know.

Until you get the full truth WH is still a cheater, make a complete list of questions, have WH answer them to you, then get a polygraph.

If it turns out to be true that's how he treats women, then I suspect he has been with numerous prostitute too.

Let me ask this was he emotionally and physically disconnected from you when this was going on?

From a STD standpoint it would be better if they just held hands and had a deep unrealized longing for each other. Was your WH tested.

God Bless
Gamma

Does what he did comply with the policy of joint agreement? I seriously doubt you were enthusiastic about it.

So I wouldn't quibble about definitions. Is he going to knock off all behavior you aren't enthusiastic about, or not?

Of course its cheating! He knows it and you know it. He committed adultery.

GOOD ANSWER! Of COURSE it's "cheating." In fact, in my opinion, even the word "cheating" minimizes adultery. It makes it sound like cheating at a checkers game or something, or cheating on a diet, instead of the WORST BETRAYAL IMAGINABLE.

What he did is reprehensible, and you are well within your rights to show him the door, and if he continues to minimize it, I think I would. But if he wants to fix it, he can follow the procedure here. I encourage you to buy the book Surviving an Affair and tell him that he can have a chance to earn your forgiveness if he will follow the program in the book to give you the marriage you always deserved and wanted.

Have you been tested for STDs, has he? Please get tested.

There is not some magic rule that says he only has to fix your marriage if he "cheated." He doesn't magically escape from consequences of his reprehensible actions if what he did wasn't "officially" "cheating".

I can tell you how his mind is working. It is called manipulation and lying. He doesn't need your help to know that having sex with other women is wrong. He already knows that. He is just trying to manipulate you into believing he doesn't know. It has worked!

The question I would ask is: DO YOU THINK I AM A MORON?

He must think you are utter moron to believe that story.

Please read.
Please Explain Gaslighting

Melody has her finger right on the truth again.

You are being scammed, Justfree. No semantics here. He had sex with another woman, he violated the trust and confidence you have for him, and he's screwing with wording to get free from the consequences.

What did Bill Clinton say? "I did not have sex with that woman". And I was young and naive in those days and even I didn't believe him.

You too should see your WH as someone who will use weasel words to slip away from the consequences of his destructive actions.

i agree he is minimizing it, that is why I a wanting insight from the veterans here to help me address this with him and help him see how he is rationalizing and minimizing.

OW lives out of the country. We lived out of the country when affair took place, there is NC.

How is the assumption and leap to prostitution made? This happened when we lived overseas. His affair was with a clingy woman who was doing interpreting for us for business. She was a flirty girl with all the men but I saw her get stars in her eyes for WH, the second I got a suspension & hint of what was happening I confronted him (within weeks of me seeing this). She was still working for us for another 3 weeks longer, but I saw the changes indicating it was over. It really was out of convenience he messed around and not love.

She moved 3,000 miles to another entire island of the country and we left the country a short time later. There is certainly NC. And all happened quite a few years ago, but as we are working on our marriage the affair became a topic of conversation because I wanted answers and understanding.

I did get him to understand for me, anything he experienced with her, conversations and the like are secrets. I want them to no longer be secrets. So he is telling me things. This was long enough ago and short enough some of the memories are all that fresh. I am even filling in some of the details that he doesn't remember about the time.

So you need help and direction to have him stop lying about what happened and to stop minimizing the affair?

Have him take a polygraph.

Yes, this will be very clarifying. In the truth, we have freedom. That will be true for both you and WH.

This happened YEARS ago, there is no STD.

I am looking for some GOOD questions and insights to open the door to MORE COMMUNICATION between us. I get that he is in the mindset of minimizing, and I am peeling away the layers to his answers. Some is avoiding, some is minimizing and truly some is forgetting details because of the length of time it has been. We are both discovering some of the timeline of events that were happening then. There is as bit of both because I was actually wrong about some of the details (it took me looking at some old records to realize I had some of the events/dates wrong>. That said, I get that he has left out details and I am looking for GOOD QUESTIONS and insight to keep peeling away the layers, intended layers or NOT!

Understand, this affair is not currently happening. We are just now really talking about it with details.

I brought up the gaslighting to him a few days ago, I tried to explain it to him, but the linked forum thread is really helpful and I will open up the conversation with him.

There was a song from long ago by a man named "Shaggy" and it was called "Wasn't Me" or something like that and in this song no matter what proof the girl had for his affair he said --- wasn't me. That is what I was telling my husband this was the same game he used to play. He agreed. This is opening up more.

WH said he had really buried the whole affair way back in his memory -- you know, the let's move on and pretend it didn't happen. Right now he is really in the place of sharing/talking/coming clean & I want as much help and direction for keep this happening by asking the right questions, showing the right info (like gaslighting) etc.

Sorry, I should have given better details at the beginning.

We are going to a marriage encounter workshop all weekend starting tonight and this is a perfect time to reopen more conversation etc. A polygraph would be just fine for me! This way I will know what is really forgotten due to time and what is left out instead.

Is there a place for polygraph info etc.

Here in the thread I posted to you, plus questions that posters asked.
Polygraph Testing

Also ask him to sit down and write a timeline out for you.