Maybe Dr Harley could shed some light with his extensive data...He's sharing data of all kinds on the MB radio show...

We are watching this thread. Keep it civil.

Marcos you testify to how awful you were and about your AO's and you compare that to my behavior. That's probably fair, yet Prisca never divorced you...

I never filed for the D...got it?

I was wondering the same thing about you ... if you do, indeed, agree with what we're saying, then why the anger?

I was ready to. If he hadn't listened to Dr. Harley and done what he needed to do, I would've. I wasn't going to sit around and just take his abuse anymore. Dr. Harley tells wives, even WW, to leave their husbands if they will not stop the abuse.

She came pretty close to changing the locks last year when she asked me to leave the house.

"I was wondering the same thing about you ... if you do, indeed, agree with what we're saying, then why the anger?"

Umm, I'm not angry...again; I'm interested in the data

"She came pretty close to changing the locks last year when she asked me to leave the house."

I see, Kudos are in order for Prisca

For the record, Mrs. W and I recovered and I didn't have a single angry outburst. I didn't punish her and I didn't require remorse. I trusted what I read on the forums and read in Dr. Harley's books. I wasn't going to be my wife's keeper. I did stand up for myself but not in a demanding way nor a wimpy begging nagging way. The cage door was open...she was free to go if she wanted to. I figured I get her to fall in love with me again by being and acting the way I did when we dated instead of being and acting like a hurt puppy dog or an overbearing demanding caveman reclaiming his woman. Remorse and repentance came months down the road of our recovery when her feelings for me returned. If anyone wants to bother they can read my wife's first posts on MB sometime around July of 2005. Our marriage was just as hopeless as many I've seen over the years here. We got lucky and arrived here and not some other forum where they would have told me to "man up and give her an ultimatum" and/or "if she doesn't jump back into the marriage overnight you are doomed".

There's a notion on several forums that you just can't love your wife back to the marriage. The advice is typically given by divorced betrayed husbands. I'm proof you can.

BigKahuna's story isn't that different from mine. He too saved his marriage without a single angry outburst. There are many other betrayed husband's that I've seen and helped over the years recover but they don't seem to have the same staying power on forums as betrayed husbands that have divorced (or just decided to remain in miserable marriages).

As far as "data", it is my personal general feeling that WW's are tougher to bust out an affair but once you achieve "no contact" they are easier to recover with, whereas WH's are often just playing the field and more willing give up their affair partner (no contact) but then altering their wayward mindset permanently is a more difficult task.

Mr. W

p.s. - Markos, to me, seems significantly more "typical" than a 3 time betrayed and 3 time divorced husband. Not bashing just guessing that it would be a lot easier to walk away from a third wife than a first wife. Still hurtful...but easier. You've been through the process before. Was marriage number 2 or 3 the result of any infidelity by either party????

No affairages Mr Wonderind, every divorce was like a knife through the heart. It never got easier they all felt like a death in the family...my last marriage was my longest...

You're right, a three time loser is probably not typical. I certainly didn't intend to get involved in a urinary conflict with anyone...time to move on...

Folks, we keep dancing around (by focusing on individual stories) the salient point of the discussion:

Over the recent history (2/3 years) what are the success rates (as represented by mutually visible cases on this site) for Plan A BHs who never incent (compel? instruct? seriously suggest?) participation by the WW in the Plan? The presence here of the Markos/Prisca partnership is evidence that "loving the WW back to the union" CAN work, the question only remains "how often". I'm thinking "sadly rarely", but have not yet figured out how to rationally do the canvass. (Need a way to "index" the date of the initiating notes of threads. Any ideas?)

Opposing would be the success stories from the "renegade" NG-model "This-is-the-way-it-will-be" tactic. Interestingly enough, on another thread on this Board, a BW was just advised that her ongoing struggles were attributable to he WH not completing the JC of assisting in the building of a better, more loving marriage! Does this not sound like EXACTLY what I have been touting on this thread? (Okay, I admittedly specified "the MB Plan", but come on.....)

Ah, I get it, NG. We have a misunderstanding on at least one point:

Yes, a betrayed husband or wife should tell their spouse that just compensation (the chance to earn their forgiveness) is going to need to include participation in a plan of martial recovery (i.e., Marriage Builders).

Where the difficulty comes in is if the wayward spouse refuses to engage in that plan. In the case of a wayward husband, Dr. Harley will usually advise the betrayed wife to not tolerate his non-engagement for very long; she usually needs to move on to Plan B. However, in the case of a betrayed husband, IF he wants to save his marriage (he doesn't have to), and the wayward/formerly wayward wife is not sticking with the plan of recovery, Dr. Harley will encourage the husband to stick with trying to win her over for as long as he can, for maximum chance of marital recovery.

In my case, Prisca verbally committed to the Marriage Builders program many times. But she would have angry outbursts at me for posting to Dr. Harley, promise to do things and then not do them, etc. If our genders had been the other way around, Dr. Harley would not have advised me to hang on and keep trying to win my spouse over without active participation.

The magic is this: if one spouse is reluctant in marriage builders, if the husband is on board, Dr. Harley gives that marriage greater chances for eventual success. If the wife drags her feet, there's a good chance she'll eventually be brought around when the husband finally gets his game tuned up enough. But if the husband drags his feet, that is usually a very bad sign.

Does a betrayed husband have to stick it out and put up with his wife dragging her feet? Absolutely not! But when he thinks calmly and rationally about it, he may realize that's his best option.

If he stares at that option and hates it but thinks he'd better do it anyway, I suggest he take Dr. Harley's advice on the antidepressants so he can do what needs to be done.

The most frustrating aspect of recovery for me as a BH was getting my FWW to "go all in".

Her A ended D-day, she was out of the fog with in two weeks but she told me that she thought that MB was too regimented and not natural.

I vented on the forum and wrung my hands here but not to FWW. I would think about quitting then think better of it and work harder at meeting FWW's EN.

At one point not too long ago she was so happy to the point that tears were running down her eyes and she asked me "why do you take such good care of me and love me so much?"

After that she really started to come around as my LB$ piled up she keep coming on board. But it took me going on the radio program for her to finely "go all in" as she is now.

Even though this is the hardest, most painful thing I have ever been through, the MB plan works like a charm.

The question is not can it work, but can you work it! And for how long.

Love the discussion, look forward to the results.

wle2

On this, I will say I reserve a single entitlement; having been introduced to this program, and learning how affairs develop, if NGB has any serious border crossings in regards to Extraordinary Precautions, I reserve the entitlement to toss her out on her cheating ear, and never speak to her again.

I've done this once, will only do this once... if she has complaints, she needs to raise them for me to address them (for instance, me moving to weekend double shifts... and then recently adding back in 5 more shifts for this month).

I think Dr. Harley would certainly agree with that!

In fact, I think it fits in with an important distinction he makes, between complaining about your spouse not doing something (i.e., demanding that they do it), and complaining about your spouse doing something (i.e., complaining about their independent behavior).

Beautiful success story, wle.

Congratulations - you earned a successful marriage!

There did come a point where I did tell Mrs. W that "This" (our marriage & recovery at that point maybe 4 or 5 months into recovery) isn't/wasn't enough for me". I did NOT tell her "you need to shape up or ship out" nor did I tell her "this is how it's going to be", rather I stated my boundary and what was good enough or not FOR ME. She was free to choose whether to make more of an effort or not. We were already doing and posting on MB (a lot) so it wasn't really about getting on board with the program but more about whether I was OK with staying married to someone who's feelings were lukewarm towards me. If she was going to remain that way...permanently...well, sorry, that's eventually not going to be good enough...FOR ME.

Of course, such statement implies "if you don't shape up I'm going to divorce you" but it's not an ultimatum. There's lots of wiggle room in there. There's no overnight imperative to take action. But after months of Plan A sometimes the former wayward wife can forget that YOU MATTER TOO and just coming home/back to the marriage isn't all they have to do to keep you happy and engaged.

To reiterate...this was months into recovery and it was in a calm discussion. We weren't arguing or fighting. I wasn't punishing her but stating my feelings about the condition of our marriage at that time (and moving forward).

Mr. W

I made some similar statements to Prisca at one point. Just that there were things that I was hoping were going to continue in our marriage and that I had never planned on us doing without, and that I hoped we would find a way to bring those things back. It was a very "light touch" statement, as much as I could make it, discussing my feelings and trying to avoid any urgent imperative or anything that might be perceived as threatening or an ultimatum. It was in a context where I was showing commitment to stay with her, as well.

These are my exact thoughts.

Why any BS would want to stay married to a WS who was educated on A's and was willing to break EP's for their own selfishness knowing the pain it would cause said BS is WAY beyond me.

Dr Harley's definition of a M is "a relationship of extrodinary care." As far as I am concerned if my FWW breaks EP's then we do not have a marriage.

I think the other challenge to R that hasn't really been discussed is the ability to manage memories. Some are better than others in redirecting thoughts and mental images. Some have an extremely acute memory...others have a poor memory.

This can play a major role in the BS�s ability to look to a happier future. I know this is a challenge for me. So even if you do the MB plan, R can still be impossible for some. I really believe this.

Some days the memories seem more distant. Other days they are right at the surface which makes optimism of a full R very difficult to visualize. I notice it most when our UA time is lacking.

In my eyes, MB gives those who what to R the best Possibility to R. But there are no guarantees.

There are recommendations Dr. Harley makes about memories. First and foremost would be, just because you remember it, don't talk about it! That's probably the classic example of why recoveries fail, from people that are doing "everything."

Doormat_No_More had a great post at some point about triggers, which I can no longer seem to find. He was a fantastic poster on this subject, and his posting history is very worth reading.