What were the things that she would say are/were problems in your M? With you?

What are her top EN's?

You can set the stage for an amazing M in the future. Show her that you can be the husband she was always wanted!

Show her the light at the end of the tunnel can be what you both want.

....most of us here could probably make a pretty accurate assumption why...

Why would you say that is?

waits�jeopardy theme�..

Answer: What is my WW is still in contact with OM? for $2,000 Alex.

By the way,,,have you approached the OM and tell him to stay the He!! away from YOUR W?????

Have you let him know that there is going to be he!! to pay if he doesn't hit the road???

Stand up my man. Don't go down like a chump.

I know it's not fair to her to not commit to R but she isn't even committing either at this point...

"Fair" has no bearing on the application of Plan A. Wanting "fair" is a direct violation of "No Expectations", my friend.

XXYH makes the interesting point of the "roller coaster" that you would be facing even if WW committed to pulling her share. Wow, doing it without WW's remorse and cooperation would be beyond me. (No shock here, right?)

Soooooo, you have to enter Plan A almost resigned to the fact that your efforts will be unappreciated, quite possibly demeaned, and very likely doomed in the final resolution. And you have to conduct it with a smile, never giving in to DJs, LBs, or AOs.

The only good thing about Plan A is that, for someone having any hope of reconciling, all other options are worse.

You will know when she is serious about R my man. Right now she is not.


There will be no mistaking it.

So, I thought I'd give you guys an update. First off, let me just THANK all of you again. You truly helped me through one of the toughest times in my life and the support here has made a world of difference.

Ok, on to whats going on. Well, our tables have turned pretty significantly I would say. I have decided to leave. I am in the process of searching for a place but something changed and it just sent me over the edge. It's like I finally had enough and moved on really. I have been staying at a friends empty studio apt and actually I have felt much better about myself and felt like I've gained more control over myself. I am in complete control of my decisions, my actions and honestly it feels very good.

My wife on the other hand I think had a rude awakening when I finally left. She has told me she never really expected it to happen but it has. I feel bad for her in a way because I see the emotions she's going through and they are all too familiar. Since I do understand the emotions and feelings of abandonment I have tried to be completely honest in any way possible. I make sure and not lead her on when she asks me to do anything or talks with me and I am completely honest with my activity if she asks.

This isn't really Plan B because I've decided I'm not ready to commit to the relationship and at this point I'm not trying to save it. I'm trying to take my time I need to decide if this is what I really want. I understand perfectly the possible consequences of my actions but it is something I have to do for me.

Again, thanks so much for the help, advice, tough love and everything. It is truly appreciated. I am still a lurker on the board and will prob become a regular poster for the other poor souls that come to this board for this terrible reason. As always, comments, thoughts and advice are always welcome and enjoyed.

Ok, so I know I am not foloowing the MB program with my actions since I have decided to take some space and figure out what I want before I try to work things out. My wife asked if I would attend Marriage Counseling with her. In ya'lls opinion should I attend if I don't even know if I want our marriage. I mean I do love my wife, I wish the A never happened but it did happen and now I have to deal with all the hurt and know what she has done and be content with it the rest of my life if I choose to be with her. At this point I cannot commit to a relationship with my wife given all she has done. I'm not actively trying to go out and find someone but I also don't feel like it was fair to me and I don't feel like I would refrain from betraying her if I did join in a relationship again with her. That hurt is too much to cause to anyone IMO and I'm trying to do the right thing.

Am I in the wrong for thinking this way first of all and should I attend counseling if I don't even know if I want a relationship with my wife? Any advice and thoughts would be helpful.

Well, the biggest problem with that is that most marriage counselors SUCK.

That said, you might give it a shot - there might be something said that might make recovery seem like a desirable thing to you.

But really, most marriage counselors do not know what it takes to recover an affair. Most marriage counselors in general don't even believe that romantic love is a desirable goal for marriage therapy.

IF you were in love with your wife, you would not want a divorce, because people who are in love don't feel like divorcing. That could only be achieved by taking certain steps.

Here's what I read just this morning in Dr. Harley's new revised version of Surviving an Affair:

Aha. Looking back through old posts, it looks like she has previously wanted counseling specifically to get an "expert" to disagree with the very good advice here that actually works.

Dr. Harley says recovery is a very narrow path. People who deviate from the plan usually do not recover. That sounds like a horrible thing for you to go through.

Keep in mind that most counselors suck for regular marriage problems, and they usually don't specialize in infidelity at ALL. Dr. Harley has specialized in infidelity for decades, and his success rate is phenomenal. He knows what he is talking about.

If you go to any counseling with her, I would go in planning to repeat like a broken record that some things are uncompromisable:

You: "I am not willing to try to recover if contact with OM continues in any form."

Counselor: "But I don't think you have to be so strict; won't you give it a try?"

You: "No, I am not willing to try to recover if contact with OM continues in any form."

What do you mean by betray? Do you mean you feel you�d fail to meet her needs or eliminate LoveBusters? Or do you mean you may have a hard time being faithful to her?

As far as what you should do I will say this. No one would blame you if you decided you are just too hurt to continue having a R with your W.

Regardless of who you are going to be married to you must see that it is very important you understand how Ms fall apart and how As happen. You must see how important it is for you to learn how to avoid these pitfalls in the future � regardless who you choose as a partner.

The question begs do YOU think you can ever get over this hurt? Do you want to get over it?

If you want to get over it then I�d say if you and your W followed this program to the letter it�s quite possible the boundaries she�d develop and the effort she�d put into taking care of you and the M could be enough for you to get over the hurt.

I would say it is important for you to recover, with her, or without her. In addition to some time, it is going to take some specific life changes. Again, life changes with her, or without her. You're going to have to rebuild a new life, one that will bring you happiness.

Yeah, I guess this is the biggest issue. IMO, she has not done enough to repent, make amends or make-up for what she has done. I feel like she wants a clean slate on equal footing and doesn't want to have tough consequences for her actions. This is what has really drove me away the most probably. I don't know if I want a relationship with her because of the hurt I've went through and the lack of making up for it on her part. At first when I found out she really put me through alot and I am just a person that once I hit the wall my emotions turn off; mainly as a defense mechanism. This has always been present for me while in my relationship, the only person who had full access to my feelings and that I let my guard down with was my wife. I never gave myself an opportunity to be unfaithful because I never opened myself emotionally past a certain point to anybody. My wife obviously didn't have this boundary and completely betrayed me in every feasable way.

The resentment at this point is just too high for me to commit to her again and really make myself vulnerable again. And yes I meant I don't know if I could remain faithful to her going forward knowing she wasnt faithful to me. I mean she has told me in our conversations that she just lost all feelings for me at one point, everything in her world was about the OM, she would have left me for him if he wanted her (she hasn't admitted this to me but I have read messages where she has said that, she insists early on he asked her about this but she wasn't ready to do that but she did become ready later on in thier R but then he changed his tune. She also says she doesn't believe she would have done it ultimately but I don't buy much of what she has to say anymore.), etc.

All in all, I just don't know if she is what I want anymore. I would have loved for this to never had happened, I was happy/content with my life and was ready to be in our R the rest of my life. I can't say that for sure now and I that is why I don't know if I could be faithful or if I want to honestly. I know its a bit selfish of me but this is more of a consequence of her actions. The only reason I feel this way is because of her actions, before I never would have been unfaithful (Trust me, I had many chances and blatant offerings over the years but something always held me back and didn't allow me to go through with it - prob something called conscience.) if it wasn't for her actions and now that I know despite everything we've been through she did. That is what really hurts me the most and it is the hardest thing for me to get over and allow myself to be vulnerable again. Basically she had all my trust (I know Dr. Harley says this was my first mistake) and my total commitment but she took advantage of it and lost it honestly. Its not there anymore and I cant say if it ever will be again.

Any advice on how to get over these type of feelings or previous experiences with this type of feeling is greatly appreciated.

I think pretty much everybody has feelings like that when they are betrayed, txstunnedman.

If she and you were to follow the program of recovery Dr. Harley prescribes, you would ultimately feel that she has made up for it. And ultimately it would be good for her, too, as together you would have a good marriage. In the end it would not be a punishment for her, and that may be a sticking point for you. But you would feel that she has made just compensation.

I think we should emphasize that Dr. Harley says this is YOUR CHOICE to make. Nobody has to choose to recover their marriage after infidelity. You are well within your rights to just walk away.

Did you get to read that quote I posted from Dr. Harley's book?

One thing Dr. Harley recommends you consider: see your doctor about prescribing some antidepressant medication for the short time. That can help you make decisions more rationally than you can when your emotions are crushing and overwhelming you.

Yes I did read it thanks. I also don't feel as though I am depressed just feel like I have been wronged. That feeling of resentment because of being made to look like a fool, lied to and everything else that goes along with it is just too much for me to put it aside right now.

I read Dr. Harley's section on resentment and he talks about not dwelling on the past and just focusing on the future. That's something I just can't seem to do. I was lied to, made look like a fool, hurt professionally and ultimately my wife chose OM instead of me but was then rejeted and now wants me to believe she never really felt the same way about him. I just can't believe that, she was 100% ready to give up everything for him and I know deep down if OM would have carried through she would have left with him eventually. I can't forget about the past and focus on the future because I don't know if thats the future I want. I at least want to see what else is out there honestly, I mean she got the chance to I don't see why I shouldn't. Maybe something is better out there, WW was able to navigate the waters and ultimately chose the other life but was stuck with me.

I don't know, I guess I will see what comes along my way but I am in no hurry to commit again even if it is a terrible thing to do to my wife. I will not be unhappy and live with resentment for the rest of my life.

I know it seems selfish. I don't mean this physically at all.

I think I'm pretty sure I feel like I can't be happy with her. I put everything I had into our relationship for 10 1/2 years. I was always there for my wife and would have done anything for her and I would have trusted her with my life. How can I ever feel that way again? I can't even trust her not to contact the OM. I trusted my wife with our daughter's life, I confided with her in the decisions of her care, I completely gave her everything I had just to betrayed and disregarded like I was no one or nothing.

This is not about the physical part for me. It's about me being happy and I don't know if I can be happy with her at all at this point. And I don't think she will be the person to make me the happiest I can be at this point because of what she's done to me. That is not something I can just forget about and IMO, there is no way to treat someone you love like that. I happen to believe she probably never loved me the way she claimed if she was able to go through with it. Like I said, I know it sounds selfish but its my true feelings at this point. I feel like I'm at least decent enough to admit it instead of lying and betraying. That is worse IMO.

txstunnedman, all I can tell you is, you are completely justified in feeling what you are feeling. When people have studied those who have gone through the betrayal of an affair AND some other major life trauma (loss of a child, loss of a limb, rape, childhood molestation, ...), almost invariably, it is reported that the trauma of an affair is WORSE.

And yet, those who follow the recovery plan here find that they are able to recover and feel those things again. It is possible to create romantic love and to sustain it for life.

Even the feeling of trust returns, when people act trustworthily, for long enough.

Don't think of it as "antidepressant." Think of it as "pro-rationality." The effect of most antidepressant drugs is to even out the emotional highs and the lows so you can THINK and PLAN.

markos, I do have a Dr appt this week I'll ask my Dr what he thinks about that. Also, what do you think I should do about WW wanting me to attend Marriage Counseling with her. She scheduled an appt for Thursday and I don't know if I should go at this point because of how I feel. I don't know if it would do more harm to try and move to recovery if I still have pretty extreme feelings. IDK if they will fade with some space or if I should take an active role in trying to force them to fade.

I just have no clue what I should be doing and if I am acting in a way that is inappropriate.

I also am trying to do what I think is right. I don't think leading WW on by staying with her when I am in no way ready to be committed to her. I think its cruel and no matter what she did I trying to not be a bad person.

Also, I don't know if attending the MC would be a form of leading her on or deceiving her.