Low level depression is still depression, and needs to be dealt with. He recommended spending 15 hours together as a family, since this is something she enjoys doing, in order to help with her depression. Are you going to do that?

The point is to make UA enjoyable, not boring. What are you going to do to make it enjoyable, particularly for her?

Sure I am. It will make her happy. That's my only option.

I'm going to let her decide what to do.

I listened to the radio show from yesterday with you and your wife. I can understand how discouraged you both must be right now.

Here's what I got out of it:

1.) Your wife, FC, has a job and life that she finds very unfulfilling. When she wakes up, there really is nothing much to look forward to. This seems to be keeping her in a low-grade depression. Once this challenge is overcome, she will likely no longer be depressed. She will have something to look forward to throughout the week and feel like she's contributing something.

Mrs. Harley invited FC to call and email her for some brainstorming sessions so they could come up with ideas to get FC involved more outside the home a bit so she can have something to look forward to.

It seemed to me that although this was discussed last, it's actually pretty foundational to the rest of the plan. Once FC has some more enjoyment in her life, she will likely have a brighter outlook.

2.) FC really really likes it when the family is all together. She loves it when you and she are together with the children. Dr. H. recommended that you two get 15 hours of this every week, because it makes FC very happy.

3.) You both need to explore more recreational activities to enjoy together during your UA time, leaning more toward what FC will enjoy but something that you will also enjoy.

4.) More UA time is needed, as you both already know. See what you can do about babysitting. I know it's a dilemma, but it can be worked out.

Dr.Harley very much understands and was sympathetic to both of you in the dilemma of making love. FC will make love with you but she doesn't really want to and doesn't like it, so it's not really working for her, and, in fact, making love actually withdraws love units. So it kind of backfires. FC can't MAKE herself WANT to make love but she does agree to it reluctantly. Until she can actually be enthusiastic about making love, this will continue to withdraw love units for her.

Going back to your first radio show with the Harleys, I recall that FC confessed to being a flirt. In the revised version of SAA, Dr. H. writes that flirts love admiration. That's one reason they flirt.

Now, what's recently arisen in your posts and in yesterday's radio show is that you have been guilty in the recent past of DJs. You probably didn't think much about what you were saying but it ended up withdrawing love units regardless. So you deposit some and then whatever you deposit is withdrawn by DJs and her reluctant making love.

If FC has a high need for admiration, then if you criticize her in any way, it will withdraw love units probably even more than for someone with a lesser need for admiration. Dr. H. never recommends false admiration, but I bet if you were to consider all her good points and then say them to her, that would make her feel really good. Does she look really nice? Is she pretty? Is she a wonderful cook? A great mother? Fun to be with? Look for ways that you can honestly admire her.

I think there's a lot of hope here...really! I can understand you must be feeling pretty discouraged, but take it a step at a time. Encourage FC to communicate with Joyce about how her life can improve.

No, what he said is that there are two kinds of women, and that with one kind of woman, the approach of saying "Just try it [sex], give it a shot, you'll end up enjoying it" doesn't work. So he has to use the other approach with such women.

Dr. Harley said that it won't work to go into each date with the feeling that "If I make enough love bank deposits tonight she will want to go to bed with me." He said you have to work on the problem of getting over the hump, establish the emotional connection, before she will feel enthusiastic about sex.

The two types of women he identified were "1 - I only want to have sex when I'm in love" and "2 - I will use sex as a way of falling in love." With #2, he can just tell them to go ahead and start having sex with their husbands while everything else is going on, and it will work great.

That never worked with Prisca, let me tell you! Prisca was definitely a #1. And what it takes is getting over the hump, establishing that romantic connection.

Ah, opportunity! Include lots of sincere compliments to FC throughout the day.

(Prisca also has a high need for admiration. Fortunately there is much for me to admire about her. )

Well, since you asked.

Why does it have you down?

You've known what needs to be done for several months now regarding UA time so, to me, the radio interview didn't really bring anything new to light that hadn't been said before.

Your wife clearly stated that this daycare thing that she is doing is dragging her down. And, regardless of how non-politically correct it is, I don't blame her! Though I don't recall her saying as much, it's, surely, spilling over into every other aspect of her life.

You, then, come home from work after, possibly, a comparatively restful day and she's worn out from it all and just wanting some peace and quiet. There's one opportunity for you.

That you guys haven't come up with a SOLUTION to this daycare situation is noticeable. She's not able or willing to do so, so it's, once again, a PRIME opportunity for you to jump in and the TWO of you come up with a plan here.

It's either make some hard choices and get this worked out or let things go as-is, waiting on her to do whatever while you slowly withdraw from the marriage and, eventually, give up. I get a stronger sense of urgency from your posts than hers but, admittedly, you post more often.

Ok thanks for all the feedback. We'll discuss.

We'll discuss.

You might want to include this as part of your discussion. Your marital boat has a substantial hole in it, and it appears that you will be the only one bailing. If she's not willing to help bail (Plan A, UA, ENs, etc) then she'd sure as spit better find a way to fix the hole (her depression). Your spirit may be willing as hell, but the flesh (the bailing muscles) is not blessed with infinite endurance.

That said, I'll not post to you any longer. Your chosen path will not be at all aided by my "Grow the Hell Up!" treatment of WSs.

(Do I hear celebrating from the Lone Star State?)

I want to add one more thing and this is from my perspective as a woman/wife:

I've done childcare before, been a stay-at-home mom, worked full-time, part-time, and just about everything in between, because of our mobile lifestyle.

The most unhappy I've ever been was when I was either doing doing daycare or when I had hardly anything to do that was interesting to fill my days, which often happened/happens in between moves.

Even this last move, when our recovery was going great and our marriage was great, those first few months when I had hardly anything interesting to look forward to on a daily basis was depressing to me. Even with a good husband and an agreed-upon move to this area, the situation had me in tears a few times.

It's really important for FC to have a fulfilling lifestyle that supports the marriage.

If she unfulfilled in her current line of work, what suggestions has she presented in the brainstorming portion of POJA'ing a better fit?

IIRC, she was a teacher and had her affair at school, enabled by one or more co-workers who essentially cheered her on.

IIRC, some suggestions such as working as a tutor were made.

If day care is such a drag on her, what are her ideas to change directions AND provide the necessary EP's to engage in a more fulfilling line of work?

Now the question to you is what ideas do you have for better UA time? The question has been posed numerous times. What concrete examples do you have.

I keep reading things to the effect of "need to work on that" or the equally vague "working on it" without many specifics.

What is her best UA experience with you ever? Could be any experience from the time you first met to today. You are not limited to post-wedding day or post-affair dates. Pre-marriage dates, when you didn't have kids or other responsibilities to worry about may be a good source of ideas for fulfilling UA time.

Excellent questions, and I'm interested in what FTF says in response.

On the chance that it sparks dialogue, might you pose them on her thread as well, Enlightened?

Nobody has any suggestions for this. I get what Markos, Prisca, RQ, and LWFH are saying. I really do.

But just to be difficult, what am I supposed to do here? Let her determine when we have SF? No, that's pressure. Schedule it? No, that's pressure. Initiate myself? No, pressure. Declare a sex moratorium? No, she knows "what I am thinking". Pressure. I'm screwed no matter what I do.

No matter what I do here, there is pressure.

I've suggested that she tutor.
She has her Masters. I've suggested the local community college.
I've suggested setting up tours for foreign exchange students.
I've suggested she simply work at a different school.
I've suggested giving up the daycare stuff and just living on what I make.
I've suggested she get her real estate license.
I've suggested she setup an online store.

The daycare is "easy" money for her. That's why she does it. She wants the money it provides.

What was her response to each?

Has there been any discussion on just how long she expects you to live like this?

Dr Harley would probably say this would be a bad idea. And I agree with him. I've been down that road and it doesn't work.

A sad kind of response. Like "No, that's not what I want to do."

Try offering a more defined solution, one that requires less input or decision-making from her.

To save $____, what do you think about doing ____, ____ and ____. I've run the numbers and I think we can make it work. What do you think?

When my wife quit her job due to the affair, there was a noticeable vacuum in our finances. We made some adjustments to absorb the loss in income and, three years later, it's the best move we ever made.