Hi. New poster here but I've been reading on the site quite a bit. I'm posting here in the recovery section because my wife's affair is over and I am trying to recover the marriage. D-Day was September of 2011. Here is some background:

My wife and I are the same age - 36. We met in college and dated for 6 years before we were married. We have now been married almost 13 years. We have two children, one who is 5 and another that is almost 2.

Back in mid September 2011, I discovered my wife was cheating on me with a man she works with. She is/was a school teacher and so is/was he at the same school. I found this out after she came home late one night (3 or 4 AM) after a girls night out. I saw she had a new text on her phone so I looked to see what it was.

The text message was from a "friend" along the lines of "How did it go with him", and my wife had responded back with the details of what had happened (Oral sex in his truck).

Lot's of TT later I found out they had been in the affair for about 10 months.

Well, you all know how this goes. She promised that she would end it and I found out a few weeks later that she hadn't.

She changed her work email password but I was able to figure it out and this time I decided to just monitor her conversations with the "friend" so I could determine what she was really thinking and doing. Well it turned out that not only was the affair still going, but the "friend" was having an affair as well with yet another man that works at the same school. The "friend" is married as well with two children.

Most of the conversations were about how they planned to entice their APs into the next encounter and talk about when they were successful and when they were not. Meanwhile, at home she was playing actress with me supposedly trying to work on the relationship. She even agreed to go to MC with me which we did.

After several weeks of spying, I couldn't stand it any longer and confronted her again. this time, I got a "total confession" from her about the affair.

She told me that it was/is kissing, manual stimulation on her, and oral pleasure by her on him. At first, it was every day at school, but that turned into once a week on the weekends to once every two weeks or so, to now where she is pursuing him all of the time and is frustrated that he only wants it every couple of weeks. She was depressed because she was in love and he doesn't seem as interested in her as he was in the beginning. She says she tried to get him to have sex with her but he wouldn't because he considered that cheating. While this sounds far fetched, I believe this narrative in general because it matches up with the secret email conversations she had with the "friend" when she didn't know I was reading them.

I called the OM on the phone before she could talk to him at school and threatened to expose the affair to everyone I could tell it to if he didn't end it with her immediately.

And if you hadn't figured it out by now, all of this started right after she became pregnant with the younger child.

Sorry this is so long.

FTF,

Are all of these waywards still working together?

Actually not so long you broke it up into easily readable paragraphs in mostly chronological order.

God Bless
Gamma

So continued...

I ended up demanding that she quit the job and lose all of the work friends. It was too painful for me as many of them knew about the A. The one friend even encouraged it. The whole job and firends there was a secret second life as far as I am concerned.

She left that job last December (2011). The OM has since moved away, and as far as I know she no longer tries to contact anyone associated with the previous workplace, although they do occasionaly try to contact her.

We went through a period of about three months after she left the job where she was still secretly communicating with the one friend that was having an affair too. I discovered it and that has since stopped as well as far as I can tell.

I'm still paranoid though, and I still check up on her phone and computer, etc. I think I just got burned too many times over a course of months, so even though she isn't doing that stuff anymore, I don't really trust.

We've spent more time together in the past year, but I still feel angry a lot of the time and think about it all of the time.

The biggest issue for me since has been her stance that she is not sexually attracted to me. I think she believes that she has never been attracted to me and the OM woke something up in her that she had never experienced before. This has been a major blow to me because even if she has sex with me now, I know she doesn't really want to.

When she told me that back at the beginning I thought it was just fog talk and it would go away. Now I'm not so sure anymore.

They were when she left there. I eventually ended up telling the OMW (About 6 months after I discovered it). They moved away to another state. So at least he is gone. I don't think he had a lot invested in the A anyway.

The last I heard from the one enabler friend was her calling my W to let her know I had told OMW. She was afraid I was going to out her too.

You do need to tell the enabling friend's BH. Wouldn't you have liked to been told about Your WW's affair.

I know, I've been told this before. It was a mistake for me not to say something a year ago, but I know that will bring her back from the dead so to speak and I don't want her around anymore.

I really only added the A background stuff so you would know where I was coming from. My biggest question for this board is how to deal with the whole "never sexually attracted" thing.

It just destroys me. This is a top EN for me and I'm not sure it will ever be satisfied in a real way if in the back of my head I feel like she is comparing her sexual attraction me to me vs OM.

On the radio archives are two segments I have summarized for you. If BrainHurts can link them in her own special way , that would be even better, so you could hear it for yourself. They are from July 25th, 2006, segments A & B.

In these segments, a woman had been married for 16 years and had never liked making love with her husband. The problem never got better. She read books, used testosterone cream, and tried showing her husband how to please her, but none of these things made any difference.

Then, in the 15th year of her marriage, she had an affair, and found that she enjoyed sex with this OM. By the time this woman called the show, she had been NC with the OM for just one week.

Here was Dr. Harley's advice, which I shall take the liberty of reversing the situation to match yours:

Have you asked your wife specifically what it is about you that she finds unappealing. What is it that makes you sexually unattractive TO HER?

For most women, sex is not what makes her fall in love with a man; rather it's that the man is meeting her need for intimate conversation and affection. Once she is in love, a woman finds sex is very easy to do, because her emotions cause her to want to make love and also to enjoy it.

Your wife is either not in love with you or not in love with you enough to enjoy sex with you.

Are you being affectionate with your wife, in the way she enjoys? Are you avoiding all love busters, like arguing and demands that will ruin your relationship?

Has she tried showing you what to do that pleases her? Do you follow her guidance and instruction in this area so that she has a great sexual experience? Men need to be trained in how to make love to a woman.

The Five Steps to Romantic Love has worksheets that offer each spouse a chance to specify their needs and desires in making love.

A big problem in marriage is the contrast effect--contrasting sexual experiences outside of marriage with those with your spouse. With your W's A in the recent past, she is most likely comparing you unfavorably to the OM.This kind of comparison is going to be a distraction.

Your basic physical characteristics are unlikely to change. Is there something that she finds unattractive in your appearance that is under your control to change?

A great sexual relationship CAN be created. A woman MUST train her husband how to be a great lover for her.

He recommended the linked article called "Changing Willingness to Desire." ----> Changing a Willingness to Make Love into a Desire to Make Love

I am sorry you find yourself in this place.

What are your wife's top 5 ENs? It is important to meet them and spend at least 20 hours a week together to fall in love agin with each other.

Are you affectionate with her? Do you have good conversations and listen to her? Do you tell her how much you appreciate her and what she does? Women need to feel a connection with their spouse in order to feel sexually attracted to them. Keep making those love bank deposits, avoid lovebusters, and she will fall back in love with you.

I would cOnsider divorcing her.
If she is providing oral sex to other men and actually tells you that she isn't attracted to you then you need to decide if you want to live your life with someone like that.

hi, ftf, and welcome to MB. my first question is: are you working the programme? the MB M recovery programme?

i ask this, because if you're not, you'll find your M back in the unsatisfactory pre-affair state.

you have done well to kill the affair and have your WW at home. but now you need to start true martial recovery. i'll hold other comments until you've replied.

oh - how many children do you have, and how old are they?

I have asked. She doesn't seem to know. Just that she doesn't feels the same way she did about OM and doesn't ever remember feeling that raw passion for me.

Yes this hurts to hear.

I did try asking another way... What do you find attractive? She says big arms and chest. Well, I've never been a body builder. I think she is just describing OM to be honest.


I've considered that what she got from OM was probably conversation. She said his classroom had been across from hers the prior year and they talked everyday. Mostly about their kids and school. She says she started having sexual dreams about him during this time. She says that has only happened once before in her life with this guy that walked her dwn the asile at a friends wedding. That would have happened 2 years prior to OM.

After his classroom moved away from hers, their luch periods were at the same time, so she started going to eat lunch with him every day.


I changed some of the things she complained about when the A was discovered.

She complained that I laid in bed too late in the mornings and did not get up to help with the kids. This was true, so every day since D-Day I have been up early.

She complained that I left my clothes on the floor near my side of the bed. Again, I have corrected this.

She complained that I came in after work and went to the computer to play. I've stopped this.

Just some examples. Most of it FC things so I have made it a point to do a good job in these areas.

To be honest though, I don't think it has really helped.


I've tried asking her what she wants. Mostly she doesn't want me to touch her or ask for sex. Seriously though, I think she is in a mindset where she is not even open to this really.


I haven't read that one yet. Not sure if she would even be ready to go into that. I'm reluctant to bring yet another book to the table.


By distraction, do you mean something that will distract her or something I should ignore and not get distracted by? It's difficult to ignore because it is painful. She is not mean enough to say "he was like X and you are not" but I get it indirectly like for example telling me she likes a big arms a chest. Or telling me dress pants are sexy. I know who she is talking about.



Maybe. Not sure.



thatnks for the link. It's a good read. Just need her to read it though I think.

it sounds like it's not that she's not attracted to you. she's just not in love with you (you mentioned her "feelings.") the good news is you can remedy that! i think you said in your first post that you have HNHN? that's a great start. the formula is really simple. avoid LBs, meet ENs. when the top ENs are consistently met, romantic love develops and deepens. the result will be the SF you desire.

i know that appears too simple. but it works. the trick is knowing what the top ENs are, and how, specifically, to meet them. do you know what your WWs top ENs are? IC is obviously one of them. do you now how to meet that in a way that is pleasing to her? women typically require affection and IC, lots of it, in order to be interested in SF.

I hope you can recover your marriage. If you don't already have the book Surviving An affair by Dr Harley you ned to get it ASAP.

You need to expose WW's cheating friends affair to her BH. Once done that toxic friend will be out of your lives for every.

Now if you have not heard of the phrase trickle truth it means WW's will only admitt to what their BH can prove and or to admitt some of the truth then claim she has told her BH everything to get the BH to stop asking questions.

Your WW claims they did not have intercourse. All WW's claim that because they know their BH's are willing and hoping to believe that his WW did not give up the ultimate physical betrayal. Also I have to point out is that WW's when they get to the point that they had sex, will claim a condom was used.

As common knowledge WW's always try to minimize the damage so if the admit sex they will lie about the fact that condoms were used.

This is why you need to have a DNA paternity test done.

Here are the clips LWFH was talking about.

Radio Clip on Wife Never Liking Sex
Segment #2

Tell us what you think.

We did do the EN Questionnaire shortly after the A was over. I remember she listed IC as her #1. FC was in the top few. FS was listed too but she said I needed to earn twice as much. I think that one was really more reacting to the fact she had to give up her job.

We should probably do it again now that things are further out from D-Day.

I know ALL about TT. The truth is I'll never really know if they had intercourse or not probably. I know she wanted to. I know she complained to her friend that he wouldn't. I'm not sure it makes it any worse either way actually. It's bad enough what she DID do while pregnant.

As for my child. Well, she looks just like the other kid. I'd say 99% sure it's mine. My W offered to have the test done, but she is my kid now either way.

We have started to schedule UA time together and we have read and watched some of the free stuff on the site. We have both read HNHN.

She is not really enthusiastic about it though. I seem to be the one to have to suggest this stuff.



Probably. But even if that's the truth, I don't think she really believes it.

Hi, FF, welcome to Marriage Builders. I have read through your thread and I will just tell you that the problem is that she has fallen out of love. You don't spend enough time together to sustain the love in your marriage. And that is the ENTIRE reason she is not attracted to you and does not want to spend time with you.

If you spent 20+ hours per week of UA time with her, she would fall back in love again. But you have to really do it. Bring the body and the mind will follow. It will take 8 to 12 weeks for her to fall in love again if you do this.

I would order the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love [$11 on this website] and tear out the UA worksheet in the back and make copies. Start scheduling 20+ hours per week with your wife. Find fun things to do; write out the dates, times, etc. Spend that time meeting these the top 4 INTIMATE emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. That will make the most radical changes in the shortest amount of time.

Do you have the book Surviving an Affair?

The Policy of Undivided Attention

Women need 2 things to desire sex: an emotional attachment to the man and the prospect of enjoyment. Women don't want to make love to men they are not in love with. You can change all that if you use this program. Here is another article that addresses this problem.
The question of the ages:
How can a husband receive the sex he needs in marriage?

Are you pleasant to be with? Or do you bring up the affair and have angry outbursts?

I am not surprised that you are still angry and are still thinking about it. When the present is not happy, our minds tend to wander to past tragedies.

Holy crap, that was a great post!! Wish you posted more around here!

IC is your place to start, then. spouses will list the non-most-intimate ENs (like FC and FS) when they are not in love. that's why it's important you start to meet IC, affection, RC, etc.

don't just "remember." you guys should fill in the ENQ every week. the important bit is "how do you like to have this need met?" it doesn't do you any good if you think you're meeting it and you're not. (and vice versa.)

you didn't answer about the children.

IC is something we are working on. Really? Everty week? They are very long. Not sure I can sell that.

We have two children. One is 5 and the other will be 2 in April. It;s in my initial post.

I just want to point out that UA time should always be spent meeting the top 4 intimate emotional needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. Those are the ENs that create the greatest lovebank deposits the fastest.

When you say "IC" do you mean conversation?

What IS IC??

I'll admit to some angry outbursts here and there. I know it's a LB but my emotions have gotten the better of me a few times since the A came out. It's not all the time though. We were actually one of those couples that "never fought". I used to think that was a good thing.

I took IC to mean Intimate Conversation.

FightTheFight,

The single sided attraction hurts alot, it will hurt alot more if you put up with it for another 20 years. That is what I did in my marriage as my W never got back her attraction for me after OM2, but I didn't understand.

Did you make a list of questions about the affair for a polygraph? If your W is holding back significant details about the affair your marriage will never truly recover, you said you didn't know if they had intercourse or not.

The last I heard from the one enabler friend was her calling my W to let her know I had told OMW. She was afraid I was going to out her too.

Do this OWHs a favor and let him know what is going on, most of us here wished someone in the know had done more than just watch the innocent spouse getting victimized. Remember this OW encouraged this knowing full well you have young children.

Let the school board know so that it can go on the OMs record, if he was a supervisor threaten a lawsuit.

God Bless
Gamma

thanks! I have been scratching my head trying to figure it out but that makes perfect sense.

If you will start going out on dates and rebuilding the love in your marriage, you won't be thinking about the affair so much. Before long it will become a distant memory of the past. Having angry outbursts erodes the love your wife feels for you, so everytime you do that, you push her away MORE.

Is there anything in particular that triggers your angry outbursts?

Fighting is HORRIBLE for marriages. Horrible. One fight can cause massive lovebank withdrawals that can take weeks to overcome.

We listened to these last night. It almost sounds just like us! It was good to hear what Dr Harley had to say. There may be hope!

I'm not sure the lady on the show was convinced though. She was only a week out from D-Day. I wonder what happened?

I hear what you are saying, but "never fight" a lot of times means "we avoid conflicts". THAT has led us to IB and just going along with what our spouse wanted. No POJA.

The woman on the show was not yet in love with her husband. It would be helpful to have follow up on her, but we do know that MB works 100% of the time if it's followed by both spouses.

Back a few conversations ago, you asked what Dr. Harley meant by a "distraction" when the woman was talking about body type she prefers. By that, I understand him to mean that body type is way down on the list of what it takes to fall in love. Once your wife is in love with you again, that you have bigger or smaller arms, broad or not-so-broad chest, will not matter in the least. A body type is not what it takes to fall in love; it takes meeting the intimate emotional needs and plenty of UA time that is the most enjoyable time of one's week.

That you are angry is understandable, but you will need to exercise extreme self control and not talk about the affair, once you have all your questions answered. It's not to give the once-adulterous spouse a free pass or a break; rather it's because talking about the affair is so unpleasant and will withdraw love units for both of you. It will NOT help to discuss it. Only rebuilding the romantic love and having a safe marriage will help overcome those feelings of anger. If you want your wife to fall in love with you, you must never raise your voice at her.

I thought it was interesting that he told her she may never have been in love with him. We dated for 6 years before getting married. We were in college, not living together.

I'm not sure we were "in love" the day we got married.

I don't talk about the A any more. I still think about it, but there is really nothing left to say about it. That's primarily the reason I don't want to dredge it back up by involving the toxic friend's husband.

What has made me angry are two things. One was how much energy and passion she put into pursuing him that I don't get. Two is her lack of urgency and action in seeking solutions to our situation. Maybe she just feels hopeless because she doesn't believe she can be attracted to me. I hope the radio segment and Q&A article have planted a seed.

Oh, and after reading the article, she was complaining that it didn't give any specific examples of things to try. Her problem, seems to be in the arousal stage. Any idea of things to try?

Have you seen these?

How to Meet the Need for Sexual Fulfillment #1
Letter 1 Part 2
Meeting the Need for SF Letter 2 Part 1
Letter 2 Part 2

Dr. Harley recommends a book called "Woman's Orgasm" by Klein-Graber. It's no longer in print but I found it on Amazon for a good price. Although its last printing was in 1970, it has some pretty helpful steps and information in it. Plenty of specifics.

Give yourselves time to rebuild the romantic love. This whole process of learning to enjoy SF with you needs to be enjoyable for her and without anxiety. Not saying at all that you are making it that way, but the whole topic can become difficult after an affair.

Avoiding conflicts is better than fighting though. Fighting causes damage that is very hard to overcome. This program will teach you to resolve conflicts in a way that makes you both happy.

FF, this is the most important part of this program. Nothing we tell you to try will have any effect unless you get 20+ hours of undivided attention time. This program will not work without it. So that is where I would suggest you start.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5013_qa.html

Well to start off with, we are buying one of those 5000 (or more) piece puzzles. Something that we can glue together and hang on the wall in a frame when done. It will give us something to work on each night together after the kids are in bed.

Sounds kind if lame I know, but I'm kind of looking forward to it. We plan to POJA the puzzle purchase first.

the puzzle sounds like fun! my H and i love board games (puzzles are kinda like board games to me).

doing the ENQs isn't as labourious as it sounds. well, it is the first time, because it's hard to both think of what specifically you need to feel fulfilled AND to relay that to your spouse. make sure you follow the instructions in the book on how to do this so it is not full of pitfalls or argumentative. you need to respect each other's needs and meet them in a way that is pleasurable. after that, it's a checkpoint, because ENs change over time - as she falls in love with you, those intimate needs will become higher on the list. this is good, because meeting those needs helps you stay in love. also, you may have realised over time how you *really* like for a need to be met, and want to share that. it's a nice way to spend couple time learning about each other, too.

just as a for example, originally, O&H was my #1 EN. but after i started receiving it regularly, it fell down the list. this doesn't mean it's not/no longer important, but that affection & SF were *more* important for me to feel in love.

i think mel mentioned above that your UA time should be spent meeting the most important ENs to create that "in love" feeling, so while you're puzzling, you want to be affectionate, have IC, etc. i'm sorry to hear that you didn't feel "in love" on your wedding day UA time is the best, though. the whole point of MB is to create the incredible marriage you always wished to have. it doesn't matter what the state of it was before this crisis. you can still create a great marriage!

can the two of you can get away for a short break? dr harley recommends a three week vacation for spouses to reconnect. being away from the regular routine really helps couples focus on each other. if you can't take a real holiday, do try to get away for a weekend or "mini-break." it doesn't have to be a flashy hotel, just away from home with the two of you. turn off the phones, no computer, just you two.

I think three weeks would be out of the question really. We don't have family we could leave the young kids with that long. Even one week is probably out of range. We could probably get away for a couple of days at most.

I'll bring it up though. It would be great I agree.

FTF,

Not lame at all, you have to spend time together if you want to have a shot at it, it almost doesn't matter what you do together either. Dr Harley recommends a minimum of 15 hours.

Before MB I rarely went grocery shopping with my W, we went to separate churches, but now we do those things together and those short duration activities do help. It would be ideal if we both compromised on activities, but I would rather give my marriage a chance than get my way.

God Bless
Gamma

IT takes 15 hours to MAINTAIN romantic love and 20+ hours to CREATE. It should be scheduled in 2 to 4 hour blocks to be effective.

Your puzzle is a great UA time activity! I would be sure and pack in several dates per week though. UA time spent at home is not nearly as effective as UA time spent out on dates. Time spent at home is not nearly as romantic as getting dressed up and going out on dates.

Harley wrote this over on the private forum:

If you could get out for a weekend alone every 3-4 weeks, that would make a huge impact on your efforts.

I did go to the effort of finding a regular baby sitter. We have discussed a local place we can go to play pool occasionally. I'd like to work this into our regular schedule.

Perfect!!

The W got a neighbor friend to commit to watching the kids tomorrow evening (for free!) so we can go out to dinner!

I still don't think we are going to make it to 20 hours this week though. Too many things got in the way. We have a sick dog we had to take to the vet, and the kids didn't get to bed early enough.

Best thing to do is to order that workbook and sit down and schedule out your week. That way you can put less important things AFTER your dates. Schedule the majority of your UA time away from your home so it is not contingent upon your kids getting to bed.

UA time after your kids go to bed is not very effective because your kids can get up and because it is way too easy to get distracted with chores, phone calls, TV shows, etc.

FTF,
You're doing great keep it up.
Don't let anything keep you from the 20 plus UA hours a week!
Look over your schedule again,you will find things you can live without to get that time in.
It is too important to you and your FWW's recovery.

Are you guys who are doing this for real really getting out of the house 3-4 nights a week for hours at a time?

FTF,

On the 15-20 hours, it's also important that your WW is spending more time with you than anyone else, with the exception of your immediate family. If your WW really only has 5 hours left over because she is with her disabled mother at a nursing home, it important that 4 of those 5 hours are not spent talking a symphatheic co-worker. Simply put we become bonded to people we spend more time with.

There would even be a danger to your marriage if WW was spending 30 hours a week with OM and 15 hours with you in the absence of very extraordinary precautions.

God Bless
Gamma

Well, she is a SAHM for now. She left her job after the A. She watches a couple of kids during the week after school for some extra money.

She isn't spending more time with someone else at this point for sure.

I was just wondering how many here "walk the walk" on the 4, 4 hour block suggestion. Particularly those with young children.

FTF,
I spent many a sleepless night on the very same two questions.
Dr. Harley describes the feeling of love to be finding someone to be irresistible.Wanting to be with that person.
What I came to understand was since my FWW was in love with POSOM due to him meeting some of her unmet EN
she had the overpowering desire to be with him coupled with the secret nature of an A she HAD to put a lot of effort in to her A in order to
1. keep it a secret and
2. To keep him interested.
Your first concern will be to create the feeling of romantic love in your FWW towards you by meeting her top 5 EN's.
Then you also have to tell her what your top 5 EN's are so she can meet them for you.
My FWW was shocked that I would want her to " put in the effort" as I called it.
I assumed she would know that most all men would want to meet at a motel JUST FOR SEX or send them a sexy text giving updates on how much she was looking forward to it.
The point is she didn't think about doing these things with me because I never let her know that I would very much like that kind of effort. After all SF is my #1 EN and it is my job to let her know that.
The second one was harder to understand.
I wanted my FWW to read SSA she didn't think she needed to. If I insisted on her reading it after she expressed reluctance it would become a SD.
That's where POJA comes in and learning how to negotiate without LB's.
Long story short she and I agreed to read it together and she is now 100% on board with MB!
It not only takes UA and input on EN but also care to nurture the
desire to create the great marriage you want.
Sounds to me that you are well on your way! Keep your eye on the prize and remember that you are refilling a love bank that has been depleted!

The ones in the recovered, happy marriages DO and the ones in the unhappy, resentful marriages DON'T. The reason is because if you can't find the time, it means you don't put your marriage FIRST. If you don't put your marriage first, you will have an unhappy, unrecovered marriage. And keep in mind, this program doesn't work without this step. It is impossible to restore romantic love without doing this because unless your are spending 15+ hours of UA time each week, you are not doing enough to sustain your marriage.

Anything that comes BEFORE your marriage will eventually come between you. My question to those who can't find the time: do you find time to go to work? If so, then why can't you find time to do something that is more important than your job?

Even so, you don't have to do a single damn one of these steps. This entire program is voluntary. It just doesn't work unless you use the entire program.

here

People here have a variety of resources at their disposal. Some who earn good salaries are able to pay for a sitter 3 or 4 nights per week. Some are able to draw upon family for free childcare. Dr Harley said that when his kids were tiny and his wife was a SAHM, they had both sets of parents living nearby, and they used both sets and still spent money on sitters. I read recently that they had a list of ten sitters on hand.

If you do not have family to draw upon free once or twice a week (plus a paid sitter), your wife could try minding other people's kids during the daytime (not full time, unless she wants to!) in return for a couple of evenings per week, or she could charge money for watching kids in the daytime and use that to pay babysitters. Mother and toddler groups are good for finding swaps, or finding someone well-off who will pay for a couple of mornings' freedom. I met people like this in my mother-and-baby group.

You could leave the kids with the grandparents one weekend afternoon every week (added to the paid babysitter and perhaps a childcare swap). Drop them off, go for lunch or an early dinner and pick them up.

If you can possibly leave the kids overnight one night every week that would be fantastic.

You have to be really creative, but you MUST make this work. Your wife is probably like a lot of women, fulfilled and happy to be bringing up her kids but DESPERATE for grown-up company by the end of the day, and missing the romance that brought you two together. She would love to go on dates 4 times per week.

That has the potential to be an extremely negative conversation. Dr. Harley's usual advice is to ask what emotional needs the affair partner met so that you can meet those better than the AP could have.

DoNoMo,

You are right, and Dr. Harley says that concentrating on this would be a distraction, but this question was in his radio show. He was asking the WW, just a week out from NC, if there was something in particular that she found sexually unattractive that her husband has some control over. It turned out it her case that it was just some different body part arrangement, height or big muscles. Dr. Harley said that once she was in love with her H, this wouldn't be an issue at all.

However, if it's something like being overweight or poor hygiene, then this would be something to change that he would have control over. And actually should this change be necessary, it would be part of meeting a need for physical attractiveness.

Well, we only managed 6 hours last week. We are going to try to do better this week. Started off Sunday with 3 hours in the books, so we are already ahead of where we were last week.

One thing I'm having trouble with is being "pleasant" the whole time we are together alone. It's hard to explain. I find it kind of depressing or something. Maybe I'm just feeling anger. I don't know.

I think I'm still struggling with statements of "fact". Especially "I'm not sexually attracted to you." It's like I'm waiting around for her to take it all back or something. Does that make sense?

The UA time is crucial. This cannot be emphasized enough. Fifteen hours to sustain a romantic relationship; 20 -25 hours to recover it. Six hours a week isn't going to bring your marriage back. I know it is hard to get this with children. Have you brainstormed about ways to obtain childcare?

She is not sexually attracted to you right now because she is not in love with you. When she is in love with you, she will likely not feel this way.

All of us can understand the difficulty with anger, depression, triggers, etc while alone with your spouse and the effect these have on being pleasant. However, you will have to use your intellect to overcome acting these out through your emotions or your words. It's not to give a free pass to the former adulterer. It's because eliminating love busters is required to build a romantic relationship. Focus on the "Friends of Good Conversation." Here

You are using your intellect when you are affectionate with her in spite of your mixed and often negative feelings. You are using your intellect when you employ the friends of good conversation. I had to start using the Five Steps worksheet on conversation to document my blunders and plan my conversations.

You have good reason to divorce your wife for her adultery; however, if you want to stay and recover your marriage, the path is very narrow.

Have you considered using the MB Online Seminar, since your wife seems to be open to MB? It's so helpful to have an accountability coach to guide you through the lessons. The private forum is invaluable and extends beyond the one-year purchase period.

I'm not sure she is entirely convinced we can get out that much. I mean she doesn't say no, but I just don't get the enthusastic vibe from her.

"Enthusiastic agreement" from her on anything is very difficult for me to gauge in her most of the time really.


Well, she has stated she is willing to go through the program. I'm waiting on my tax return to pay for it. I don't think she is going to be all that into watching the seminar part though because she feels like she has heard it all already.

I'm most interested in the motivation part of it with the accountability coach. I'm hoping that will help get her more into it. How much contact do they have with you? How involved are they?

Just go ahead and schedule the time together each week. She may not yet be enthusiastic, but if the time together is consistently pleasant, she will grow to enjoy it and be more enthusiastic. The UA time is vital to your romantic relationship. She just can't see much hope yet, but keep it up and eventually she will fall in love with you again. The key is to make this time the most pleasant hours of your week and of hers. No lovebusting, no negative feedback, meeting her emotional needs as much as she will allow.

Enthusiastic agreement is about making decisions together in a way that makes both of you happy. The 15 hours of UA really isn't negotiable. The hours scheduled ARE negotiable. Don't try to gauge her enthusiastic agreement. Negotiate with her about the schedule, the times that work best for both of you, and about what you will be doing during those hours.

It's a mistake to judge right now whether she will watch the videos with you. If she is willing, sign up for it and watch the videos together. It's part of the program. Make sure while you watch the videos together that you don't get angry or make disrespectful judgments. Cuddle up with her and make it as pleasant as possible. We did ours together a bit at a time, in conjunction with our homework.

The coaching depends on the needs of the marriage. Much of the work is done by the couple at home with sessions with your coach when necessary. You can also post questions to Dr. Harley on the private forum, which is very helpful. Just reading the threads on the private forum with Dr. Harley's responses is helpful.

Your wife doesn't see it yet, but you and she have a great shot at a recovered marriage with romance and passion and that is safe. It really can be all you both have dreamed. It takes both of you. And it will take some time. The program is really helpful on getting a couple to build healthy new habits and breaking all the old bad ones.

She is not enthusiastic right now. Neither are you. That is the GOAL here. And if you don't schedule that time you will never be enthusiastic and she will never enjoy sex with you. Do you want that?


She has to watch the videos first before she can go to the next step.

Another great longwayfromhome post!

One thing that is bothering me today....

So, over the holidays, we got a Christmas card from a guy that was the sub for my wife while she was out on maternity leave. I noticed that she sent him a text saying something like "Thanks for the wonderful card. How are you doing?". Well, he never responded. I don't know if his number changed or what.

Yesterday, I saw on her FB that she had contacted him to say happy birthday, and then he had responded and they were talking back and forth. Just stupid stuff, like how is the family, where are you working now, etc.

Well, maybe it shouldn't have bothered me but it did, so I asked her about it. She kind of laughed it off and said "Are you afraid I'm going to develop feelings for him?", to which I responded "Well that's how it starts isn't it?"

She got mad and moved to the other side of the room and started ignoring me. I asked her if she was mad now and she said she just wasn't going to say anything since she might say something she regretted. So I left it alone.

It just doesn't give me the warm fuzzies to have that be her reaction to it. I can see why she would be upset, but I don't think I shouldn't have said anything at all if that's how I was feeling. IDK.

Does your W understand boundaries? Why is she having conversations with people of the opposite sex that isn't a blood relative?

Did she put in place EPs?

Understand what they are? Yes. I just don't think in her heart she believes in the "extraordinary" part of EP. I think it makes her feel not trusted and restricted. And I'm thinking "well duh"

And no, we never did a formal list of EPs. It seems like this is a bad time to bring it up. I just don't think I can bring up the subject without her thinking I am trying to "teach" her something.

It is normal for you to be bothered by her personal FB interactions with this guy. You did the right thing by pointing it out to her and not saying anything nasty. This is exactly how many affairs start--innocent little back and forths that turn into friendly conversations--that become more personal--and on it goes.

EPs are non-negotiable and are there for the protection of the marriage--to prevent another affair.

I would have her get rid of FB entirely. There are many on this forum who live without FB. The very least is to share a joint account, so you are both on there. The one name can be easily changed into a combination of both your names.

One of my FWH's EPs is "No communicating with a female in any other way than the necessary professional manner needed for work." Period. And I have access to his email, so I do periodically check and call him out on anything that looks like it's more than just professional.

Although redundant, I added a secondary EP that he was to have "No intimate conversations with a female (no conversations about anything personal, such as likes, dislikes, marriage, music, etc)" These two EPs would mean there are no personal birthday greetings.

I've had to call him on his sloppy boundaries several times since then, because these have been a long-time habit, but I don't feel bad at all about calling him out on them. Those are what it will take to make my marriage safe, and I'm not staying in an unsafe marriage. He's been defensive a couple of times but quickly cleared it up.

You are doing what it takes to make your marriage safe. She is still feeling defensive, so her reaction isn't a big surprise.

See, I don't see how I can even get into this subject of boundaries with her yet again without it causing bad feelings. I just know it's going to lead to what happened last night.

I don't fear it, I just don't feel like it helps us get any closer, know what I mean?

How can I approach it in a way that doesn't get her defenses all up? When that happens, the convo just ends and if I try to continue, it's just going to lead to a fight, so I shut up. But then it just feels unresolved, I end up here on the internet complaining about it.

Extraordinary Precautions are a basic part of recovery after an affair. And many people have practiced these without an affair first. The Harleys have always been this transparent with each other.

Here are the steps to recovery. And each one must be followed or your marriage will not recover. You may stay married but it will be a crippled version of your pre-affair marriage--and who wants that?

Sit her down and tell her lovingly but firmly that this is what it will take to keep the marriage together:

1.) No contact for life with AP.

2.) Complete transparency: shared passwords to email, cell phones, bank accounts, etc.

3.) Integrated lifestyle: you know where the other is at all times. No nights apart.

4.) Extraordinary Precautions for LIFE (these aren't to educate a wayward or a formerly wayward. These dictate your own boundaries and what YOU will live with.)

5.) Rebuild the marriage into one that that is passionate and romantic--one that is better than the marriage before. This is part of what Dr. Harley calls Just Compensation. Just Compensation isn't about "forgiveness" or "moving on." It's about paying back in a way that creates a great marriage.

And of course, your wife shouldn't be trusted. That's silly. She's already proven she can't be trusted. None of us should be blindly trusted anyway. We would mostly all have affairs under the right conditions. And under other conditions, none of us would have affairs. Extraordinary Precautions prevent affairs by nipping it in the bud right from the start.

I posted my comment before I saw this one from you. Here's what I would say to your wife if I were in your shoes:

"Darling, I would love for you to be in love with me again, like you used to be. And I want to be in love with you, too. It would be so great if we could have the kind of marriage we dreamed we would. And it's possible.

"We CAN have that. I love you very much and want this marriage to be saved. But it's not fair that it should be just swept under the rug. We don't want our 'old' marriage back, do we?

"I will do all I can to meet your emotional needs in a way that I haven't done up till now. I will also avoid hurting you. I'm going to do all it takes.

"But there are some things I need for you to do, too. These extraordinary precautions aren't just for you. They are for me, too. I'm going to do these WITH you, because I want to make our marriage safe, too."

Then give her the list of EPs and the rest of the steps. And, if she is willing, the MB Online program as soon as you get your tax return, although they take credit card, you know.

This is the part where I just feel like I'm starting into a lecture. I have a history of "giving speeches" or "lecturing" and that is one of the LB that I have been working really hard to eliminate. I just don't do it anymore. It makes her feel like I am saying she is stupid.

I'll have a hard time approching this in a way that doesn't cause conflict.

And I posted mine before I saw yours. Thanks for this suggestion.

another great post from LWFH. FTF, it is important you YOU are radically honest (RH) with your WW. i know how hard this can be, because i struggle with it myself. but she needs to understand that you are withdrawing from her despite your best intentions (to recover the M). LWFHs sample dialog is terrific.

UA time is IMPERATIVE. you must schedule it each week. it's the SCHEDULING part that is important in that sentence. if you don't schedule it, it doesn't happen. i am not in your position, because my dd is grown and on her own now, but i know from other's threads that you can make this happen, you just have to be creative. brainstorm ideas, no matter how silly they seem, then pick a few you think *might* work and try to develop them. someone on the boards works out together because their gym has a creche, so they can spend the time together, releasing those endorphins, without the kids. that's just one idea.

it's also difficult to "find time" when you are in a rut where you are not used to it. as a busy woman who typically put everything and everyone ahead of myself, i had to learn how to prioritize myself and my relationship. as long as i think "this comes first, no matter what," i can manage to do the two most important things to me: spend UA time with my H, and go to the gym for my health. those two things now take priority over what used to: my job & professional activities. i derived a lot of personal satisfaction from my work, but i don't LOVE my work like i love my H. and i can't love my H like i should if i'm not healthy. so every day, i look at my schedule, and i put those 2 things as my most important goals for the day. everything else can wait if i've run out of time and/or energy.

i know that sounds counter-intuitive in our world/society. however, i just remember that being devoted to work over family = divorce most of the time, and an unhappy M the rest of the time.

And how would I convey that with the sample dialog presented?

See I'm more inclined to say something like:

"Wife, I'm having a really hard time with all of this. I feel betrayed and disrespected and ignored by what has happened. Now that I know you're capable of cheating on me, I NEED to know that you are aware of the damage you have done. I NEED to be reassured by you that you feel bad and are moving mountains to ensure that you won't fall into that trap again. The fact that you - right AFTER this - went and started emailed ANOTHER man, buddy or not, while I'm still reeling from the affair, leaves me wondering if you really even want to be married to me. I need to see something from you, so I won't just give up and check out of this marriage. Read this book - it explains the slippery slope of emotional affairs and talks about what happened to you. I need you to understand it, and to see it from my side."

But I can see how that might come across as demanding, but then again, is it really?

What you are wanting to convey to your wife is understandable. Her affair has been the worst thing that has ever happened to you and has hurt you to your core. The problem is that if you convey it in this way to your wife, at this time especially, it's not going to do anything to help your marriage.

The fact is that most wayward wives do not feel remorse for what they have done. Many blame their husbands for neglecting them and that's why they had this affair. So it's not going to be helpful to expect her to feel badly about what she's done. Not yet anyway. In a year or so, when/if the marriage is recovering, she may look back and feel terrible and express sadness, but you shouldn't expect it.

Now I know that seems deeply unfair, but that's what a betrayed husband must understand. It's different for betrayed wives, but we won't talk about that right now.

So, IF you want to recover your marriage, see if you can pursue her and win her back.

And I want to remind you that we are ALL capable of cheating. Those who have not either live a life of Extraordinary Precautions (avoiding tempting situations) or haven't had the opportunity.

FTF, i know how badly you want to say those things. i have not only thought, but said, those words and worse! it doesn't help at all. WWs are different from WHs, LWFH is right on that. we need to get a fella in here i think. however, i thought LWFHs sample dialog was pretty darn good. why couldn't you say exactly that? sadly, BHs are in the position of having to woo the WW back, despite the agony they are in. you need to focus on restoring romantic love.

ps: have you read the threads of the other BHs?

Ok, so I used LWFH's words almost verbatim. It led to a conversation where she basically doesn't really buy into the EP in this case. She says there is no chance of there ever being anything between her and this guy. She feels controlled and says she feels like she is losing her identity. It was a very calm conversation though. I only got accused of lecturing one time.

It did end with me telling her I loved her and was only trying to save us. I still don"t get the warm fuzzies though. I worry that she is just going to resent feeling "controlled".

I've read some. Any any particular you were thinking of?

FTF,

Ask her how she felt about OM at first?

Ask her how SHE would feel had you had an affair, does she have any empathy with you?

God Bless
Gamma

I just don"t know anymore.

Have you read up on Plan A? Carrot & Stick of Plan A

Men are advised to "Plan A" their wives for as long as the husband can handle it. Often they can pursue their wives and compete for much longer than a betrayed wife can hold out.

At this point, I'm sorry to say, your wife is not likely going to have empathy for the position she has placed you in.

With two young children, it makes sense for you to try and save your marriage. Without Extraordinary Precautions, your marriage is not protected. Your wife sounds like she has very sloppy boundaries around men.

What exactly of the EPs does she NOT want to do?

Meanwhile keep on scheduling your hours together and meeting each others needs and avoiding love busters.

Yes, I'm aware of Plan A.


She wants to be able to talk to and be friends with whoever she wants, male or not. She also believes she should be able to go out to bars and clubs with her girlfriends, but that one hasn't come up in a few months.

That story is that back in November, she went out with a group of girlfriends to see the new twilight movie. Afterwards, they all went to a club together. One of the women in the group is divorced and ended going home with some guy that night. They got home at 2 or 3 in the morning. I was out of town that weekend.

She agreed not to do it anymore, but only after arguing that she doesn't see anything wrong with it. So I guess that's why she feels like it's controlling. She just doesn't believe it's necessary, but isn't willing to get divorced over it, so she feels trapped I guess.

It's just is discouraging to me that she doesn't "get it". Ya know? And it keeps me from feeling safe in the marriage. i think her lack of buy in is what keeps me paranoid and checking up on her to be honest.

Holy crap! So I emailed the radio show and they are going to discuss my letter on the show today. And this morning I got a voice mail from Joyce asking me to be a caller on the show today or tomorrow!

I'm going to ask her if my wife can be on the call as well.

That's really great news, FFF. The Harleys are very respectful and courteous to callers. Dr. Harley uses logic to persuade reluctant spouses, and Joyce is so friendly and empathetic. You will get the best advice from them, especially since you will be a caller and do it all first hand.

I hope your wife will be willing to speak with them. Looking forward to hearing the show.

We got some good advice from Dr. Harley. He went in a completely different direction than I though he would. It was very interesting (to me at least).

What did he say?

Will you be on the show?

Yes we were on the show today.

I can't get into everything that was said righ now, but it basically boiled down to me avoiding love busters and my wife closing off her love bank to other men and opening it to me.

The big surprises to me were

1. She was looking for an affair when she got involved with OM.

2. She is a flirt and that brings out the best in other men which is what she is gets out of it.

3. I've closed off my access to he Love Bank by Love Busting, and nothing I do to meet her needs will have any effect as long as that is going on.


I'll have to listen to the show again. It's hard to remember. It seemed like it went by pretty fast and there is a lot to digest.

Well, we went out together the last two nights. The total hours for the week turned out to be 11. Still not as high as we need to get it, but double the time we got last week.

Dr Harley sent us two books to read. Surviving an Affair and Love Busters. I am currently reading SAA, and my wife is reading LB.

They came yesterday and I've already read half of SAA.

OK I've now completed reading through SAA. I've now given the book to my W to read as well.

I realize after reading the book and talking to Dr. Harley on the radio that one of my biggest problems is Love Busters. In particular, DJ, SD, and AO. I also realize that these are being fueled by strong feelings of resentment.

OK, so knowing that, I have been really biting my tounge this past week. I didn't realize how often I made DJs until I started making such an effort to avoid them. And they are not really big ones either. They seem so innocent and small but I see how they build up over time. They come from me often in the form of little critisms here and there. These kind are actually easy to avoid if I am thinking about it, and I don't have AO or SD very much in everyday life, so there isn't as much to correct there.

What I have a really hard time with though, is how to deal with being rejected when it comes to SF. I have so much resentment from the A because she was so willing to provide this need for him. Every time I am rejected, all I can hear in my mind is her saying to her friend about OM "But why doesn't he want it more? We used to do it every day!". And I also know that she went to the effort of looking up information on how to be better at it to please him. She even used me as practice a few times. Almost every day, she was disappointed if he didn't ask her for SF. All he had to do was call her on the phone and she would be right down to see him.

So I only put that out there to show where my resentment is coming from. Here is a situation that happened just yesterday, and it's very common. I have no real idea of how to handle this within the framework of what Dr. Harley is teaching.

Hope this isn't TMI, but I need to describe the situation honestly so I can get some good feedback.

Early in the day yesterday, I let my W know that I was desiring to be intimate with her. Several times during the day, I reminded her of this and asked what I could do to help he meet my need. How to help her get in the mood, how to make it a good experience for her, etc. I didn't get any feedback.

So last night, after we get the kids in bed, I come out from my daughters room and my W is already in bed early. Cool. So I slipped into the bed with her, turned towards her, put my arms around her, and gave her a kiss. Well in response to that she rolls her eyes and says loudly in an unpleasent tone, "Oh no, FTF is horny!" as if talking to someone else.

So I back off and she goes back to watching the TV and pulls out a book to read.

I immediately feel the resentment and anger rising up in me and I decide that I need to choose my words very carefully. Running through my mind is all of that stuff above and then I move on to "She knows this is my #1 need, the way she just blew me off makes me think she does not think it's important to meet this need and on top of that, is sort of mocking me for having it in the first place. She's read the material, she knows better, but she does it anyway." etc, etc, etc.

I started to say something, can't even remember what it was, but I caught myself mid sentence, realizing it was a DJ. All I could think to say that didn't seem like a LB was "That makes me feel bad."

I just don't know how to deal with that better. I feel like she had a chance all day to work towards meeting that need for me that evening. I tried to present it in a way that gave her the opportunity to express how to make it enjoyable for her too.

I feel like this has just added more resentment and I'm going to carry that added resentment into the next time she actually does make an effort in that area. I already know it's going to be some form of pity sex. And that just does not meet the need. Sorry. More resentment.

No idea how to handle this or discuss it with her in a way that doesn't introduce a Love Buster. Especially since I feel like it's just going over the same things again and again.

Hi FTF
Read the article, The Question of the Ages: How to get the Sex You Need in Marriage. If you have already read it, read it again.

The purpose for sex for most women is to establish/express that bonding. Likely, this is what drove your WW to want daily SF with the OM. And also why she is not interested in it w/you.

But you can't get her in the mood, nor can she herself, by just having ample notice to think about it. In fact, that might even cause her to feel turned off. Women are just wired differently than men. (Generality, of course...)

If she is like most women, she needs romancing... Lots of affection, little actions throughout the day. Try wooing her. And then bonding time prior to actually slipping between the sheets. That is the purpose of date nights... If you want help with suggestions for romancin', ask the forum members!

And what are her top EN's

FTF, no, i cannot really recommend threads, as i tend to stay off BH threads, but it will help you to dig around and read them.

what were your "little hints" during the day? were you meeting her ENs? or were you reminding her "i want SF tonight?" ENs will lead you to +SF, though perhaps not immediately. reminders will lead you to -SF.

i have to scroll back up and see where you are in recovery. i'm not sure you've started.

good to see you were on the show!

ok, ftf, i've just read all your posts again. you got some very good advice already. i see that you are working hard to not commit LBs - great! i know how hard that is, *especially* if you are resentful.

however, where are you in EN meeting? how are you spending your UA time? you will have to focus on meeting her non-SF intimate needs (IC, RC, affection) if you want to get to SF. right now, her LB$ is in the red. if you want to restore your M (and get SF), you need to make enough deposits not just to bring it back to in the black, but *beyond* that.

ftf, right now you are in a horrible place. your WW has had an affair, and your needs are not being met. it takes great strength to be able to meet WWs needs in order to restore the relationship, which is why i suggested reading (and posting for sure) on other BHs threads. you need to see the fight they've had to make (that's metaphorical) and where they've ended up so that you can see for yourself that this can work for you.

you are doing very well to work so hard on eliminating LBs. this is progress, and you deserve a pat on the back for that. but getting your WW in love with you again requires both halves: eliminating LBs, making LB$ deposits. have you two re-filled out the ENQs? also, you need to be spending that UA time creating new memories that will push OM out of her mind. UA time is crucial - use it wisely, and go gangbusters on EN meeting!

ps: it would be very helpful if you would add a signature line:

BH - me (age)
WW - her (age)
M - year married
DS 5 yrs
DD 2 yrs (or whichever gender they are; ds=darling son, dd=darling daughter)
DD (d-day) date
TT (trickle-truth) date(s)
NC date
short statement on where your relationship is at the moment.

the reason i ask this of you is so that posters who are helping several people can keep the stories straight without having to reread the original postings over and over. if you need help on how to do it, just ask. it's in your profile, and will automatically append it to your posts if the box below the reply box is ticked, "Add my signature to this post."

I can see both of your points. I wasn't saying "Hey remember I want to do it tonight" or anything blatant like that. Maybe it came across that way.

Her top two needs are Conversation and Family Commitment.

Yesterday we were home together all day with the children. We had lots of little conversations through the day and well, I spent almost the whole day with her and the children. Bonding time in the evening did not happen because she went to bed early to watch TV and read her book while I was still putting the youngest to bed.

I suspect that she also has a need for affection but hasn't listed it in her top needs yet because of this disconnect we still have. I asked her last week what she needed to be in the mood in the evening and the only action item I got was little massages during the day, which I would put in the Affection category.

The prior two nights, we spent out on dates. Dinner and billards one night and the next night dinner and a live comedy show.

Again, I get what both of you are saying, but it seems there should be some work on her part to at least give me some direction on how to get her in the mood. Even when we do make love, it almost always is very one sided, and I hate that. It's like "Don't bother trying to get me in the mood. Why don't you just lay back and let me break out the lube." That's just not very appealing to me, and it does not meet my need for SF.

Should I not try to find a way to convey this to her?

FTF
Nope... Because you can't MAKE her want to have sex with you. And neither can she MAKE herself.

And yes, it will feel like you are doing all the work right now. Which sucks, because you are the injured party, AND have the added burden of resentment. However... This is your job right now.

So, keep up with the LB avoiding. (Good for you for tackling that one!) And make a specific plan to meet her EN's and follow it. Remember that your EN-meeting will have limited success right now, as she is likely still foggy around the edges from the A drug. The analogy of filling a lake with a teacup is a good one.

I found it really helps me to put my resentment aside if I have a SPECIFIC plan for EN meeting, and follow it. Like a daily exercise program. (Monday, I will do X at 10 am, I will do Y at 2 and I will do Z at 5.) Really helps keep my focus, and helps keep my eye on the long term goal (a wonderful, loving, passionate marriage.)

Keep posting...

No we haven't refilled out the ENQ yet. I'm going to suggest we do that again tonight. I hope she will agree to do at least some of it.

I like the suggestion to form a plan to meet those ENs. I'll see what I can come up with.

Oh, and I added my signature lines. Thanks for the suggestion.

You've received some great advice from Catwhit and Letty. I agree that sending her little sweet texts throughout the day is responding to her need for affection. Maybe bring home flowers or take food every so often. Do things the way you did when you were courting her.

Dr. Harley suggested you treat your wife like she is your treasure. She would likely enjoy being admired: "You look so pretty." "You are so beautiful." That kind of thing.

All of this must be done without it leading to sex, at this point, just like when you were courting/dating her.

I know this is a crappy position to be in, but if you want your marriage back, this is what it will take on your part. Your wife's part, as Dr. Harley discussed, is to make you her only man, so there is no contrast effect with some other guy.

It will take a while for your wife to trust that you will not be love-busting with SDs, DJs, and so on, so keep on doing all you can. Give it a few weeks and she might find herself falling in love with you again. When she is in love you, she will WANT to meet your need for SF. And she will enjoy it, too.

Hi ftf,

I relate to your wife in some aspects of sf and when I am not feeling "in love" with my husband it drives me the opposite way when he expresses his desire for sf too much. Right or wrong the neediness turns me off. Also massages done with sf in mind are turn-offs.

What does turn me on is his meeting my emotional needs without expectation of sf. Try meeting her expressed need for massage and touch often without any sf overtures following. Also she expressed she likes muscles. You dont have to be a bodybuilder to get major points just for starting and maintaining weights/ cardio work-out. It turns me on when my husband exercises because he is trying and appears motivated and disciplined. It's a turn on even though he remains overweight.

One last thing- the tentativity you may have displayed by talking about your desire throughout day and maybe even in initiating sf is probably a turn off to her at this point. After you have spent a few days filling her love tank with no expectation, seize an opportunity, and confidently and assertively kiss her with tenderness and passion- not a quickie. Have your hands cupping her head so If she starts to pull away ( might be initial dedensive reaction) you can stay in the drivers seat a few moments more. My husband has done that with me before and it has helped to take me past my defensiveness and head space. You can either leave her hanging after ( to be continued) or go for gold:)

Hi FTF;

Deborah and LongWay are on to something.... I just love "courting" behaviour when it is NOT an obvious entree to sex.

Examples;

When passing her in the hall, take her hand and do a few seconds of waltz... Then just smile and keep on your way.

Walk across the room, pick up her hand, kiss the palm gently, then keep on your way.

Catch her eye, smile, then drop your gaze and keep on your way.

Serve her tea or coffee with a little biscuit, no reason, then walk away...

Send her a text that says, "just remembering the last time we kissed...Wow!"

Put a sweet little love note in her briefcase.


The key here... Make the gesture...then drop the expectation part.
Romance... NOT lecherous stalker... NOT needy loser ... That's your mantra.

Have fun!

Can I say something that bothers me about this program?

There seems to be a danger of causing the man to turn into mush in order to 'win' the woman over, when in reality, biologically and psychologically speaking - dating back to caveman days (i.e., it's in their DNA) - women NEED their men to be strong, confident, and take charge. The more a man bends to try to keep a woman, it seems, the harder she tries to squirm out of his grasp.

Your wife screwing some a-hole on side is "mush"-making, shall we say?

A dude fighting for his marriage and family is completely manly and thats the way I look at it.

If she chooses a slimeball who is using her for her tookas, thats her fault and that in no way is a reflection on you.

Ive been here for while and my observation is nothing makes you look stronger and manly than using the techniques here to salvage your marriage.

FTF,

Neither Dr. Harley nor the posters on your thread are recommending that you, as a betrayed husband, should turn into mush and bend over backward in order to win the heart of your spouse. That's not how you won her heart in the first place, was it?

Yes, a man should be strong, confident, and take charge, AND treat his wife as if she is his treasure, with kindness and sweet words, signs of his affection, and no love busters.

That's not being weak. That's being strong and showing love.

I guess I have a lot to learn about maintaining this balance between strong and confident and winning her back. Those two things seem to be so at odds with one another. I'll be honest, just saying "winning her back" makes me cringe. Shouldn't she be winning me back?

Nah. She should be concentrating on being worth keeping.


Men do carry a lot of weight in this program, FTF. It really isn't some new-age, feminist-theory type of program. Dr. Harley full acknowledges the differences between men and women physically, emotionally, and psychologically.

As men, we are simply built do endure more.


And, you aren't winning her back from another man. You are winning her back from a state of withdrawal.

Have you read the book Surviving an Affair?
The case study, Jon and Sue....
Sue never tried to win Jon back.

Most wayward wives never show remorse.
I agree it can seem insane to want to try to win back a cheating woman.

That why you need to really ask yourself if you're willing to do it. Because Harley explains on the radio show that Recovery is TOUGH.
Logically, it is best to reconcile if possible if there are kids.

My marriage ended in divorce. My wife cheated a little over a year ago and I can honestly say I feel better and the kids are better off since she left. So life does go on.

Some people are on here for years, spying on their cheating spouses and always worrying.

Oh and if you win her back she will ARGUE with you. First she will be depressed because of breaking up with her affair partner. So you have To wipe her tears over her breakup. Then after depression lifts she will go from the withdrawl stage of marriage to conflict. That means constant arguing and love busters directed at you!

Then if you plan a enough you will enter into intimacy stage. But that will only last if you follow the recovery plan to exact details with no deviation. If you deviate you will fail! And she needs to commit to the plan too!

So yeah I understand your frustration. I'm glad I'm not in your shoes anymore

I have read SAA. Just got done with it actually.

My W definately went through depression. I think a lot of that was due to her losing her job as well. It's been a year now, so that has gone away.

The only real arguing we have done over the past year has been about things I wanted her to give up due to the A. Friends from work, guy friends, her job, etc.

And there has been the complaining from me about the sex and the AO and DJ that arose from my pain over the whole thing.

But that's it really. My W has never been one to argue. She is very conflict avoidant. She's never told me I couldn't do X or Y or complained about much of anything.

I do believe she has major regret over the A. I know she wishes it had never happened. But it's hard to tell if that is true remorse about hurting me or if it's more to do with all of the consequences.

Yes, it takes a very strong and brave person to work on recovery with a wayward. spouse.

If we didn't have children, I'd be gone. I know people say don't stay just for the kids, been that's been my primary motivator.

I wouldn't do it again though. Second strike and I won't even try to stay together.

I guess I've gotten to the point where I figure if I'm going to stay, then we need to try to make it as good as it can be. That's why I'm giving this program a shot.

Same here, FTF. Just gotta keep moving forward...

There is a difference between using the kids as motivation to repair the damage. Then just staying for the kids.

Exactly! Kids are a huge motivator.

That's a good point. I was just feeling low yesterday. Today I am feeling better though. My wife printed out the ENQ for both of us while I was at work yesterday and we started filling them out last night!

I think she got to that part in SAA. I'm encouraged that she is reading it and wanting to do some of the exercises.

Good. Let us know how it goes.

OK here are the initial results. I need some help interpreting these.

She lists her ENs this way:

1. Intimate Conversation
2. Family Commitment
3. Admiration
4. Financial Support
5. Recreational Companionship
6. Affection
7. Physical Attractiveness
8. Sexual Fulfillment
9. Honesty and Openness
10. Domestic Support

But I'm a little confused.

Under IC, her number 1, she evaluates me as a 1 on a scale of -3 to 3, yet answers "yes" to "My spouse talks to me as often as I need" and "I like the way my spouse talks to me". I asked her about this and she says we have nothing in common to talk about. OK, I realize that may be a problem at first, but I'm wondering if this is a sign she is withdrawn?

Under FC, her number two, she lists it as a moderate need (3 out of 6), says she is neither satisfied nor dissatisfied with me (0 of -3 to 3), yet answers "yes" to "My spouse commits enough time to the family" and "I like the way my spouse spends time with the family".

Under Admiration, her # 3, she says it's a high need (a 5 out of 6), gives me a rating of -2 on a scale of -3 to 3 and marks "no" for "My spuse gives me all the admiration I need" and "No" to "I like the way my spouse admires me". She suggests 1 times a day to admire her and to "tell her how awesome she is".

For FS, her # 4, she lists it as a high need (5 of 6), ranks me as a -1 out of -3 to 3, and provides no feedback yet on that issue. My suspicion is that she wishes I were more successful, but feels bad about wanting this.

For RC, her number 5, she lists it as a 5 out of 6 need and ranks me as a -2. Marks "No" for "My spouse joins me in recreational activities as often as I need" and "No" for "I like the way my spouse joins me in recreational activities". She does list some activity suggestions like cooking together, home improvement, and dancing.

Sounds like you don't understand her needs. Correct? This would be normal at this point, BTW!


Steve Harley recommended we have a meeting to discuss our ENQ answers. The purpose is you are a reporter on a fact-finding mission, interviewing your spouse to determine what they mean by their answers.

Keep it light and friendly. Your goal is to begin to devise a plan to be an expert at meeting your spouse's EN's. Start with one of you reading your answer, then discuss. You ask things like, "would you like it if I held your hand more often? How often?" Do not get defensive.

Then the other spouse reads their answer and you discuss.

This should take about 90 minutes. But stop if you find it is getting "heated" in any way. Take breaks if you need to. (We stopped, stretched, and had a hug break after every question... Made it more fun and teamwork-like.)

Posters here can give you their opinion about what your wife's ENQ answers mean, but really, she is the one who KNOWS what she means!

Good luck.

When you begin to integrate your RC, you'll have more "in common" to talk about.

Ok so we have gone over some of her answers. I gave mine too, but I'm not concentrating there right now.

I don't feel I got a lot to work with though. Conversation is listed as her #1, but her only feedback was she wanted to talk about things she wanted to talk about. And then she said she felt like she should be talking to her friends about those things. (Couponing, etc) Not sure I don't agree!

Family Commitment is her #2. No good feedback there either. Apparently she is fairly satisfied in that area. We get lots of family time.

As for sex, she is happy to not be doing it or have any pressure to do it at all. So I've backed way off and she has made no effort in that area in over a week now.

I've been concentrating on being loving and plesant whenever we are together. She seems much happier, but I guess she would be. To me is seems like she is getting what she wants out of this. A marriage with no sex, and no pressure for sex.

There is still little effort on her part to actively work the program either. Anything MB related or UA time related still has to be initiated by me. If I didn't sit us down to do it, we wouldn't even schedule UA time.

Couponing is not a topic for [/b]Intimate[b]Conversation. Just sayin'...

True. Point taken.

Hey buddy, you're me in 2010.

A few comments, if I may...

1. You take charge of getting this UA time in. Sure, it's awkward and there are moments of silence reminiscent of a middle-school date, but that's how you get this ball rolling.

2. Don't try to schedule sex the way you did a few pages back. She ain't there yet! I'll guarantee that it was a huge turn-off at this point in time. Save it for when you're further down the road and when such sexual innuendo is well received.

3. Pity sex is awful and you don't want it. You think you do, but, afterward, you realize you didn't but still want it again even though you know you shouldn't. Make sense?

4. Yes, it feels like you're doing all of the hard work. It sucks.

5. Yes, it feels like she is getting all that she wants as far as a sexless marriage goes. It sucks.

6. Once you get this UA time ramped up and make it a habit (along with eliminating LB's), I'd put money on this SF issue resolving itself quite handily.

You're starting over in this relationship, somewhat, and may have to draw from your early years as a couple for inspiration. You're dating her, if you will, so you need to be on your best behavior. Her behavior, like it or not, sounds pretty promising and you've been getting spot-on advice from the others.

So give it some time, get this UA thing working and keep your side of the street clean. Make yourself someone that she would *want* to be with and you'll find that many of these issues kind of work themselves out.

Well, it means that you guys have nothing to talk about. Why is that? It's because you either have no experiences to talk about or are not sharing conversation-worthy experiences with each other.

How can you remedy that?

She already gave you a starting point...


This all goes back to UA time and making it count.

Thanks for the words. I could use the encouragement.

Outstanding post NW!
FTF,
Run with the "dating" idea it works.

It's not easy to have a conversation with a stranger I found out! Specially one you are married too! Get to know her again, find out as much information as you can and listen to what she says she is interested in and learn about it. Go out and do the things together you used to do.

Dr. Harley says that one of the best things parents can do for their kids is love each other!

Get that babysitter!

I have two grown M DD's that get the biggest kick out of Daddy telling them he has a "hot date" when they call and ask what are you and Mom doing tonight? Mom always just smiles when she hears that!

You are doing great, don't be discouraged!

Well, we have a date tonight. I think I'll start out the night by asking her what she does for fun.

2010 was three years ago. So where are you now?

We're doing great now, but I'd say it took the better part of a year to get ourselves back on track. You seem to have a fairly decent head start.

What's your plan for UA time this week? With two little ones it's difficult, but can be done.

Glad that it worked for you. Well the plan for UA time, that's the big question every week. lol. We are literaly broke this week, so we are trying to be creative. Looks like a lot of sitting at home to be honest.

And that's ok. Just look for opportunities where you can...during lunch, an hour before supper, and hour or so in the evening. It'll add up.

We were discussing this at lunch and she complained that nothing she wanted to do counted towards UA time. I inquired what she meant by that and she said she wants to watch TV.

Well OK, I keep reading that TV watching doesn't really count towards UA time. So what do I do with that. Heck, I want to watch TV too.

I'm just affraid it's not going to amount to much in the way of LB deposits.

Well, if your discussions are along the lines of "Let's figure out how ten ways that we can be more spontaneous" then you're going to struggle a bit. Don't talk too much or over think it!

You take the lead and come up with alternatives to watching TV without actually coming out and saying that that's what you are doing. Sure, it makes sense that y'all would want to watch TV if you didn't have anything else going on.

You mentioned she misses cooking together. What about making dessert or something after your oldest goes to bed? Ideally you guys would sit at the table and have a great conversation but, if reality strikes, a quiet evening on the same couch in front of the tube while eating dessert may be better than nothing.

I've been there before and remember it well. Little by little, it gets easier!

You also mentioned home improvement a page or two back. Think of ways that the two of you could get (back) into that. You know her pretty well and could probably start a conversation up on something that is interesting to her. Something like

"Hey, look at this thing in this Pottery Barn catalog. I'll bet we could do something like that for a helluva lot cheaper. What do you think?"

"Hey, DS was talking about [Disney's Cars] the other day, what do you think about redecorating his room..."

Both good ideas thank you.

TV and Movies are a carrot - if we meet our UA requirements, we can settle down and watch a show together.

That show should be mutually enjoyable.

TV was a problem in our marriage previously, as my wife lorded over the TV with shows I hated. At one time, she would even cut activities outside of the home short because she "had to get home for xx show."


Now there are a few shows we watch together once or twice a week that we both really enjoy.... and it actually fuels our conversation!

THAT is good use of media in marriage, as a common activity and spur of conversation... not as the only thing to do.

Well, I may have made a mistake today. Just looking for opinions from those who have been through it.

I'm frustrated that we are not getting in our UA time and my W doesn't show a whole lot of desire to get it in either. I hate that I have to be the one to constantly bring it up. I feel like if I just dropped it and never said anything about it again, then she wouldn't bring it up either.

So at lunch today, I brought up my concern that she just doesn't seem to be into it. The conversation just left me feeling down. I tried my best to be repectful about it, but how do you tell someone they aren't doing their part?

Sounds about right and that's why it's called a rollercoaster. You have to give her a reason for wanting to be into it and it isn't going to happen over a period of a week or two. Right now, she probably sees your actions as manipulative attempts to change her mind. She may be of the "it's too little too late" mindset or may be thinking "why didn't he do ___ when it would have counted?"

How long did it take you guys to get into this to begin with? A few years?

Now, if you've been plugging away at this for six months and are still seeing nothing, then I'd worry.

Think of these Love Bank deposits as a penny at a time if it helps. Eventually, it'll add up.


Only you know when it's time, but if you're seeing no progress and are getting into the red then it may be time to call it quits. I get the impression that you aren't there, yet, so keep going!

Brother, I've been in the red for awhile now. I've been fighting this thing since Sept 2011. Granted, I didn't start trying the MB concepts until last month some time so that is a factor.

How many hours of quality UA this week?

4.5 so far. Quality? Not as good as it could be. We had a bit of a cash flow problem at the beginning of the week so it's been a lot of sitting around at home.

I suggested we should get out of the house, but even now that we have the money, she would rather not spend it. Now this is the opposite of the way I feel. I'd go borrow $10,000 tomorrow if we could spend it making our marriage great again. It's priceless to me. I just feel like it's a penny wise, pound foolish kind of thing.

I inquired about why she didn't want to go out more and besides the money, she says it is boring to go out just the two of us. She only thinks it would be fun if we went out with a group of other people. Well, that kind of misses the point if you ask me, but I don't want to lecture or teach, so I don't know how to respond to that.

We had discussed starting a thread here together to get some ideas on what other people do.

Then don't push that issue. Secure finances may be very important to her, so you don't want to come across as unsympathetic.


Your task is to show her otherwise, but at 4.5-hours--and I'm guessing you're being liberal with that estimate--you've got some work to do. I suspect that if you show a concentrated effort here then you'll see some improvement.

What is your daily routine?

6AM - She is up with our oldest to get ready for school.

7AM - I am Up. The oldest gets on the bus at 7:15 AM

7AM - 9AM - We watch the morning news, Play with our two yr old, drink coffee.

9AM-6PM - I am at work. She is home with the little one.

2PM - 6:30PM - She watches some after school kids and our son is home at 3:15PM

6:30PM - 7:15PM - Dinner.

7:15PM - 8PM - She puts the big one to bed, I put the little one to bed / bath / book reading.

8 PM-10 PM - We usually sit around and watch TV or do something else.

10PM - 6AM - Sleep

Weekends are pretty much the same except I don't go to work.

Oh, and I forgot that Wed and Fri we have to keep one of the after school kids till 8:30PM so that cuts into our evening too. So tonight for example, we will be lucky to have an hour together.

Start earlier in the mornings such that you're ready to go when the oldest wakes up at 6. She'll appreciate the extra help. Better yet, you get up with the oldest sometimes and let her sleep in.

Can you guys meet for lunch? Even if the 2-year old is in tow? Or look at some of the mother's morning outs that some churches/daycares offer for little ones. Our middle one is in one Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday from 8:30 until 1:00 on days following the public school system's calender.

Also, does your wife still want a divorce or where does that stand?

Getting up a little earlier is an option. I do work close enough that I come home for lunch every day, however our 2 yr old is there of course. How do I count that? I'm trying to follow the UA worksheet and the way I understand it strictly is that time with children around does not really count.

As for the MMO thing, it sounds nice. But I do feel better knowing that she is with my daughter all day while I am at work. Since she isn't working, I can say I would be worried about what she was doing all day if she was just home alone. I know that sounds selfish, but I'm paranoid as it is.

You may have me confused with someone else on the divorce thing. She only brought that up in the very beginning. That was a little over a year ago. She doesn't want that anymore although if it weren't for the kids, she would have probably been gone.

Do the best you can but, yes, children can be a disruption. The lack of UA time is a problem that you guys are going to have to get figured out.

Babysitters and vacations are a hell of a lot cheaper than a divorce, and if your wife isn't actively trying to get out of the marriage then you have a leg up over most on this forum.

Fight the fight, Kiss and I asked Steve Harley directly about UA time with children. While it isn't optimum, he says that as long as we are able to deposit love bank units and are able to give each other attention, IC, and RC, it DOES count. Just as long as that isn't the only UA time you get.

Well this last post does it.
Every week I read conflicting information between Dr Harley and Steve Harley.

I encourage you to email the radio show. Do not mention you asked Steve Harley and specifically ask dr Harley the same question.

I understood undivided attention to be UNDIVIDED. Meaning no other persons getting your attention. He's talked about this on the radio show.

Here's a radio clip of Dr. Harley explaining what the policy of UA is.

Radio Clip on What is the Policy of UA

Well, I guess I'm confused too. We spend a lot of time together, but we are trying to track our time and I don't know what "counts" and what doesn't. The only times we are really apart is when I am at work, but we have children around most of the other times.

If I go strictly by "no children, no friends, no tv, etc." then we don't get nearly enough time in. If I start counting tv time in the evenings and lunch at home every day with the 2 yr old around, then the time goes up a lot. Heck, under that scenario, I can count a lot of the day Saturday and Sunday.

UA time means Undivided Attention to each other. This is time with each other and no one else. If your little one is in bed and asleep and you and your wife are enjoying some intimate talk and affection, RC, and SF, then that time could be counted as UA time.

There may be plenty of times you and your wife are enjoying some time together, maybe, say, cooking together in the kitchen or on the patio at the grill, and your two-year-old is doing something else, perhaps napping or watching cartoons, you and your wife would be be sharing RC together, but strictly speaking, you could be interrupted at any time, because they are not asleep, so it's not UA time.

UA time is very important to a marriage, even a healthy one. After an affair or in attempting recovery of a neglected marriage, a minimum of 20 - 25 hours a week of UA time is strongly recommended.

You can still have fun when your children are around, but it's not UA time, because you certainly couldn't be engaging in SF. Depending on the age, even RC is very difficult.

When you and your wife start making this UA time a habit in your lives, it will become the most enjoyable hours of your week and neither of you will want to give it up for anything.

How goes it?

Hey, thanks for asking.

Well, for the moment things seem to be a little better believe it or not. I've been doing my part to follow what Dr. Harley and others here have advised me to do. I've also been slowly working my way through the book Love Busters.

Areas of concentration on my part have been no DJ or AO and showing lots of affection. I've been very careful and deliberate with this over the past few weeks and it IS making an impact. It's a very slow thing, but little by little I see little glimmers here and there. Interesting stuff.

My wife has been a little under the weather the past few days, so our UA time this week has suffered, but I did get a chance to show affection by caring for her and taking up the slack on things she usually does around the house.

Tonight, we have a date with the kids out of the house for a few hours. We are going to stay in and watch a movie and have popcorn.

Tomorrow, (Saturday), I have a babysitter coming so we can get out of the house for about 4 more hours. We are going to see some live music as that is something we both enjoy.

We still need to find a way to get more "official" UA time in. I do my best to meet EN as often as I can even if it's not UA time.

As far as my need for SF, it's something I've backed off for now with the idea being that I will evaluate how things are improving or not in the next couple of weeks before doing any complaining.

Good to hear, keep it up. Though your time is, obviously, limited, try to come up with something interactive that y'all can do this evening...make brownies before the movie or something that will give you something to talk about before you're distracted by the movie.

Hope all goes well, have a good weekend.

Here is something else that happened this week that I thought was encouraging. I'm sitting at work and out of the blue she sends me a text says "They are talking about the giver and the taker on the show". I thought to myself, "Wow, she is lsitening to the MB radio show. Cool!" And then we had a chance to talk about what was said when I got home.

I don't know what happened but I'm in a funk again. Sorry if some of this is "too much information" but I need to get it all out there because this is an issue that is really fouling things up for me.

Friday night, we stayed in and watched our movie. The kids went to a neighbors house. We made dinner together and then drank some wine and watched the movie. It was good. Picked up the kids and then put then to bed. They were tired because it was late for them and they went to sleep easily. Then we headed to the bedroom.

Without getting into specifics, she pleases me, but only after making it clear she is not interested in being pleased herself. This really bothers me.

Saturday, I hired a babysitter and we went out for 4 hours so eat and see some live music. We both really enjoyed the evening. This time, when we got home, the babysitter had the kids in bed for us per my instructions. BTW, I love that! It gives us a break from our normal evening routine.

So same kind of thing that evening in bed. She is again clearly not into it and just as I try to initiate some foreplay, she breaks out the lube. I hate that lube. It;s just a big reminder that she is not into it and just wants to lube it up and get it over with. I immediately lost all interest. We didn't fight, and I wasn't angry or mean about it, but I just couldn't be into it after that. Nothing ended up happening.

So those are just two examples, but it's something that is haunting our recovery. Yes I have read Willingness To Desire

This would be so much easier had the affair not happened the way it did. We went so many years with me just accepting that my wife had little desire for sex, only to have her pursue her AP so aggressively for sex. Maybe it was love driving it as this site professes, but it seems that there was something else going on there.

I mean the guy basically used her. All he had to do was call her up on her work phone and she would be right down to service him on demand. And she pined for him so much. There was all of this "he looks so good I just want to run my hands all over his chest" and "I can't think straight" and "Why doesn't he want it more, we used to do it every day"

The short of it is her A consisted mostly of giving BJs to a guy who didn't give a crap or really need to initiate anything. And for some reason she was turned on by it. And that is still lingering in the back of my mind every time she is not interested in me sexually.

I'm afraid I'll never get past that.

Everything you state will continue to be a problem unless your UA time is at least 20+ hours per week.

Immediately get with your wife and schedule your 20+ hours for this week ... then next Sunday tell us how your Sex life is ...

Rinse and Repeat for three months ... then come back and tell us about your sex life.

Nothing will change unless the core of the program is followed.

UA
POJA
PORH

Cheerio...

There is one thing to you can place your money on ... your Sexual Fulfillment with your wife will be intimate.

Her affair sex was cooties ... Know the difference!!!

"BH - me (37)
WW - her (37)
Married June 24, 2000
DS 5 yrs
DD 2 yrs
D-Day 1: Sept 11, 2011, 11 month PA.
D-Day 2: Oct 17, 2011
She left her job Dec 17, 2011.
Found her secret email account Feb 22, 2012.
More TT about second OM, EA.
NC since
No real plan up till finding MB, Jan 2013."

Recovery is a 2 to 5 year process.

What you thought was recovery was you just in hold on mode.

You did not start recovery till finding MB Jan 2013.

I know I know. Sorry to puke all over the board. Just riding the rollercoaster here.

Believe it or not, it sounds like you're making progress.

Don't give up yet. How's your time looking for this week?

It'd better be better than last week!

I'm reading this thread:

UA time when children are very young

I sent the link over to my W to read.

Right now, we have 7 hours pretty well established each week between Friday and Saturday nights. The challenge right now is to find the quality time during the rest of the week without going broke!

By quality, I'm thinking out of the house when we have energy.

That's what happens on roller coasters!
FTF by increasing UA time with your wife you are creating the necessary environment you both must have to meet each others intimate ENs.
Keep working on this area it is that important!

Also don't underestimate the importance of what you allow your mind to dwell on. As a BH you HAVE to have control your thoughts or they will rocket down that dark road and along right behind it is all the intense, painful emotions.
There is a thread on just this subject I read a couple of days ago. I am too much of a novice to link it but I know who can do it...

We need a Brainy signal like the old Bat signal!

Haha

Which on are you thinking wle? The trigger thread?

FTF,

Since it takes two years minimum, you should start your clock when you found marriage builders. Also it sounds like your W is starting to absorb the concepts takes awhile before she will have the lightbulb moment.

I hate that lube.

Most BHs do, I have a particularly ugly, horrible memory of being with my W at the gynecologist, she was talking about her dryness, the nurse perked up "well your not dry today", there is no measure of the negative balance a statement like that makes on your ego. I think that was like 15 years ago or something like that.

God Bless
Gamma

Yep,Mark1952
Managing memories and dealing W/ triggers

Thanks I found it. Triggers

So I was just thinking this morning since we were talking about UA time last night.

Why is it that my wife and her AP didn't have to put so much time into their relationship as we are having to put into it?

If it takes 15 hours a week to sustain romantic love, how were they able to maintain it with much less time involved? I mean much less. Maybe 5 hours a week if I'm being generous.

Did you listen to the clips at the end of this thread?

Not yet but I will a point to since you mentioned it.

Because they were in a fantasy world. An affair bubble where they only had to let the other see their best side. Nothing like the real world with all of it's day to day problems and besides you were still meeting some of her needs. POSOM only had to meet one or two of those needs.
Don't let that discourage you from putting in the UA time and by the way 15 hours is for a M in good shape you guys probably need 25 plus!

OK here we go again. So my wife has been making extra money watching some kids after school. A new kid came last week. He is being watched during the day while his dad is at work. The dad is single in his 50's. We are late 30's if that matters.

He calls thins evening to speak to my wife because the kid will be coming tomorrow for the second time and he wanted to know if he needed to bring anything for him. I overhear the conversation and somehow my wife ends up offering to help him with his resume.

Now I know she probably doesn't think anything of it and will say there is no possibility of anything between them, but that kind of misses the point doesn't it?

It just leaves me feeling like I come off as a jealous fool saying anything about it, but why should I have to in the first place? Of course that line of thinking just gets be feeling angry like she doesn't get it.

So, I ask you, what is the proper way to go about this? Just say it bothers me?

Heck, it bothers ME that ot bothers me! Know what I mean?

OK here we go again. So my wife has been making extra money watching some kids after school. A new kid came last week. He is being watched during the day while his dad is at work. The dad is single in his 50's. We are late 30's if that matters.

He calls thins evening to speak to my wife because the kid will be coming tomorrow for the second time and he wanted to know if he needed to bring anything for him. I overhear the conversation and somehow my wife ends up offering to help him with his resume.

Now I know she probably doesn't think anything of it and will say there is no possibility of anything between them, but that kind of misses the point doesn't it?

It just leaves me feeling like I come off as a jealous fool saying anything about it, but why should I have to in the first place? Of course that line of thinking just gets be feeling angry like she doesn't get it.

So, I ask you, what is the proper way to go about this? Just say it bothers me?

Heck, it bothers ME that it bothers me! Know what I mean?

It BOTHERS you because it bothers you. You do not need any other reason.

Tell your wife that her offer to help this man with something unrelated to their business interaction is enough to sever their business deal.

Send a notice to the man that he needs to seek an alternative child care situation because your wife is no longer able to meet his needs.

This is not aPOJA. This is a boundary. She crossed the line. One toe? Just one toe? Yes. Just one toe.

*bam*
He is no longer her customer.

If/when she whines or complains, you tell her that the marriage continued after her adultery on the condition that she conduct herself in ways that protect the marriage. At all times. If you feel vulnerable and unprotected by something she has done, then your call is the one that counts. She should be happy to lose this customer for the sake of assuring you that her intention is to keep you feeling safe at all times.
MY opinion.

Do this immediately. Give the guy a one week notice. No resume.

So I just avoided saying anything except it bothers me and she said she would tell him she couldn't help him. Hopefully that's the end of it.

Is this directed at me?
That's not what I said, at all.

I was just trying to avoid being angry about it with her or lecturing. I said it bothers me, she said she wouldn't do it. I could go on and on about why it bothers me and why it upsets me that she offered in the first place but but I'm not sure I trust myself to go there.

It took my H a couple of years to get the EPs really airtight. His poor boundaries with women were a habit and habits can be changed, but it takes some watching and tweaking.

One of his EPs was "no terms of endearment" with anyone but blood family members. Reading his work email one day about six months out from D-Day, I saw that he had called a colleague "my flower." I called him on it and reminded him of the particular EP that he had already agreed to. At first he defended it, then relented. And has not done that again to my knowledge.

One of his EPs was to always make sure he was at least an arm's length from any woman except blood family members. That one had to be monitored and reinforced as well.

"No conversations with women except as needed to conduct business and then nothing personal." Really bad habit for years and that one took the longest to overcome. But now, two years post D-Day, he seems to really "get it." The EPs have become internalized.

So basically, I'm saying that you just need to inform her of any interaction that finds you feeling threatened and she needs to change that. You may have to add some EPs. They will certainly need to be monitored. And then there's always the POJA. She would never agree to work on a resume, or anything else, without your enthusiastic agreement.

If the poor boundaries have become a habit, keep monitoring and letting her know when the boundary has been crossed. You're right to do it without lecturing or DJ.

No need to be angry. Just fix it.

Did you miss where I suggested telling the guy it was not going to work out and he needs to find other child care?
It's not his fault. But he still needs to go. That's something of a strong reminder for your wife never to do that again.

I didn't miss it. It just seemed a little over reactive. I can't imagine that looks attractive on a man.

You are new to the MB plan I see. Just a month. Are you and your wife reading any MB books together?

[video:youtube][/video]

Infidelity: What every couple should know.

Just to deepen your understanding ....

Yes, we have bothe read SAA and HNHN. I am reading through Love Busters. We have also both watched that video.

I totally get how affairs start believe me. And my wife was even advised by Dr Harley himself that she needed to close her love bank to other men. He even identified her as a flirt.

This isn't the first time she has crossed over a boundary, and I do speak up now even though I was afraid to in the beginning, but I always end up feeling like I am overreacting to things. And maybe I am. The truth is I am very sensitive now in a way I never used to be.

*** link to 15 steps *** <~~~ Look at this

Please note how innocent step ONE seems to the person who falls into an affair.
Your wife cannot indulge in ANY discussions that veer even slightly away from business when talking to men. That's how most people "fall" and "fail". Step-by-step ..... not a giant plunge.

My husband began his 2 year EA/PA with the baby step of listening to a friend's wife complain about her problems. Now, he goes to AA meetings on a near daily basis. Sometimes, a female from AA wants to talk to him one-on-one after he has been a meeting's featured 'speaker'. He knows this is the road to perdition. He steers her (sometimes not so gently) towards another female AA member. That first step is being "helpful" to a person outside the marriage, in a lot of cases.

This can occur during on-line conversations as well.

How much does your wife know about the baby steps to hell?

We were cross-posting


Very dangerous.


You are most certainly NOT overreacting.


Nope. You recognize trouble sooner rather than later. This is a good thing.


The real issue is her sensitivity to what is crossing a boundary. She sounds like she plays deliberately ignorant .... which guises as innocence.

Watch her like a hawk.

I get it. I just hate having to be this way.

It's just little stuff here and there.

Just a few weeks ago, a neighbor came by to pick up his kid as well. (We are friends with the husband and wife and they watch our kids on Fridays so we can go out). He asked if he could borrow my drain snake because his sink was clogged up and he had seen me using it earlier in the week.

I brought it out, and it had the little end of the snake sticking out a bit like a pig tail. He looked down at it and said something like "That reminds me of me" in a self deprecating kind of joke (about his penis size). My wife immediately says to him "Oh I'm disappointed." and laughs. He says, "Yea but I can breathe out of my ears though." implying oral sex.

I'm standing there thinking I can't believe what just happened right in front of me. As soon as he left I told her that kind of thing bothered me, but it's like she doesn't even think anything of it until I said something.

It is unlikely this is the first time they have given themselves permission to talk dirty to each other.


This little stuff is real and it is important to address.

If my husband made that ear comment to another woman, he'd be finding somewhere else to sleep. I would go to her husband and tell him our spouses were flirting. I'd tell him my husband had one adulterous affair that began with "little remarks".

Here's the thing, you cannot avoid the fact that these behaviors of hers are serious. They are serious. You are not crazy.

I would let the neighbors wife know that you witnessed her husband and your wife trading sexual innuendos with each other. Tell his wife you are concerned because your wife has a history of adultery X2. If neighbors wife has any sense, she will watch HIM like a hawk.

And you tell your neighbor to keep off your property.

Face it. You will need to address this, because apparently your wife is clueless.

It does not give me any satisfaction to write to you this way. I am sorry you find yourself in this situation.

Well what am I supposed to do, keep throwing people out? I'd say this ends up happening with just about everybody we come into contact with at some point.

Maybe we need to sit down and go over this together. I need to make this a safe discussion though. She is going to feel attacked and accused I'm sure as that has been the reaction in the past.

I support that.


Have you ever called the MB radio program?
I really don't think explaining this to her will help in the long haul.
I'm not so concerned about her reaction. (in fact, I don't give a damn) I am however, deeply concerned about your love bank balance. I think you lose love for her a little at a time. Very dangerous.

I think it would be wise to seek a professional opinion. MB radio.

LINK to MB radio

According to Dr Harley there are *** 4 rules *** to guide marital recovery.

1. The Rule of Protection: Avoid being the cause of your spouse's unhappiness.
2. The Rule of Care: Meet your spouse's most important emotional needs.
3: The Rule of Time: Give your spouse your undivided attention.
4. The Rule of Honesty: Be completely honest with your spouse.

Obviously your wife violates the first rule. How is she doing in the other three areas?

I'd frame my question to Dr Harley based on his rules for recovery. Just a suggestion.

Yes actually. We were callers on the show on Jan 16 of this year. Just about a month ago.

Here's their show.

Radio Clip of FightTheFight's Show
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

You're not attacking anyone. You're just telling her that this guy makes you uncomfortable and that you'd like her to help you negate this by referring him to another childcare provider.

Anticipating her response, I'd remind you that the reason why you are uncomfortable, no matter how benign or ridiculous it may appear to an outsider, isn't important as it is entirely your prerogative and not for her to question (a DJ). It's that you are uncomfortable that is important and she should be mindful of such things.

In other words, try not to utter "Why do you effing think I'd be upset?" during the conversation. "It just does" is better.

Any negative reaction on her part would merely confirm that she knows what she is doing is wrong.

How's the UA scheduling going?

That's just it. I don't think the guy per se makes me uncomfortable really. It's her actions that make me uncomfortable. It's like this stuff has been going on all along and I'm just noticing it now because of the infidelity.

I also have unpleseant memories. There was this one time, right after D-Day, where we went out together to a concert. It was at this open air type place and they had a bunch of little clubs and bars around.

We went into one of the clubs and one of her coworkers was there at the door working as a bouncer. I remember being introduced and shaking his hand. We didn't stay long, but as we were leaving, she stopped to say something in his ear. I didn't hear what it was, but as we were walking away I asked her and she said "I told him I expected a full cavity search next time." I was floored that she would be so careless of my feelings.

To make it worse, and I didn't know it at the time, but on her last day at work, this guy cornered her in her room, turned off the lights, locked the door, and kissed her saying "I should have done this a long time ago". I didn't learn about that until 3 months later. I don't think she had any interest in the guy but she was obviously leading him on.

I read texts from her saying things to him calling him "baby" and wanting "her bear hugs". Again, I don't really believe she was interested in him, I think she just liked that he was interested in her.

So I've got a lot of this type of stuff built up in me as hurt and resentment. Behavior that I just see as careless. Just like the stuff at the beginning of this thread about texting with that other guy about his birthday.

I wish I could make her see it.

Anyway, the UA time is getting better, although I admit we have not yet made 20 hours of official time. We do spend every minute together though except when we are at work or in the bathroom.

I'm sorry. All of this complaining makes her sound like a really bad person. She isn't. I can tell that she really tries to make it a point to be nice and pleasant with me. She does a lot of things for me and really does care. But this is an area we need to work through and I need to get her to buy in to for both of our sakes. And I also realize I am partly to blame because I have allowed it to happen for years. I just thought I was being a guy who wasn't jealous or controlling. Big mistake on my part.

Thanks!
and......
*doh*

Whatcha thinking Pep?

So we got into a bit of a spat yesterday. I got invited to go to a local NBA game with a guy friend from work. I asked her if it was OK with her if I went and she responded with "That means I can have a girly night". I asked "What's a girly night?" and she says a girls night out.

Well, last time she went out with the girls, it was supposed to be to see the new twilight movie. They were going to meet at a restaurant before hand and then see the movie. The way the night actually turned out was different however. They went to the movie and then went to a club afterward and stayed out till 2 in the morning. One of the girls in the group (who is divorced) ended up going home with some guy she met there.

So knowing that, I said "Do you think you guys can avoid going out to a bar or club?" To which she responded "How about if we go to a restaurant and drink?" I ended up at the end of the conversation saying "I don't feel good about this girls night out thing."

Well that didn't go over well with her. She then said "Shana gets to go out." and "You mean I go out with my friends now." The conversation ended because I had to go back to work. Later on that evening she told me she feels like it is punishment. I told her "it's not about punishment". She said "well it feels that way". The conversation ended there.

Bottom line, I don't think she gets it.

Edited to add: I ended up canceling going to the NBA game and she didn't go out either.

This is a WW that is looking to have another affair.

She has not learned anything about boundaries.

You on the other hand needed to say you are not going out clubing, drinking, dancing, cheating like she did and her toxic friends.

However at this point you have not learned anything about MB.

How are you doing getting your 20 UA time every week. You fall short? How hours of UA time have you and WW ad for the last ten weeks?

At this point your need for recreational time needs to be spent together not apart.

You are an adult. You want to go to a game you offer to buy the tickets from your friend or you go buy two tickets on your own and take WW.

You want to go out at night yet expect WW to stay home alone.

Your WW has to go NC with these toxic friends. Where there is smoke there is fire.

These women that want to hang out in bars, clubs, or whatever and drink dressed up to attract male attention is not a healthy pass time for married women. And for single women not the best way to go about looking for a relationship.

This is not true. I have no real problem with her having friends of the same sex and going out with them for fun once in a while. I only object to where they choose to go.

Me going to a basketball game with a guy from work for a few hours is not the same as going out to a bar / club until the wee hours of the morning.

FTF,

Had you met your 15-20 hours of UA time for the week? That should be the priority before either of you go out with others.

How is your UA time?

This is good. Now the two of you need to sit down together and plan exactly how your time apart from each other can be spent while protecting your marriage, going forward.

I would suggest that the two of you sit down every Sunday afternoon (or any other time that is mutually agreeable) with a planner and plan out your upcoming week. Start with plugging in 20 hours of detailed UA time. After that, look at whatever time you have left. If there is adequate time for the two of you to occasionally spend a few hours with friends, you can plan accordingly.

The most important thing is to have firm rules in place regarding these evenings spent with friends. Make the rules and agree on them. There is to be no deviation from those rules without enthusiastic agreement on the part of both of you.

My H and I rarely spend time apart. We have firm rules in place regarding the time we are with friends. Here's what we follow:

We agree that the spouse who goes out tells the other exactly where we will be. If that changes, we are to inform the other spouse immediately. My best female friend and I enjoy meeting for dinner once every few weeks. Not too long ago, we planned on meeting at an Italian restaurant. When we got there, we found it was closed on Wednesdays. So off we headed to another restaurant. On the way, I called Mr. Bliss to inform him of our change in plans.

The spouse who is not going out has a standing invitation to join the other spouse without notice. All of our friends understand this and couldn't care less. They respect our rules.

We are home on time or early.

At any time, either spouse can call the other spouse. Just to say hi. I talk to Mr. Bliss two or three times when I'm at dinner with my girlfriend, just to tell him I love him or to see if he wants me to bring home some to-go food. He does the same when he is out.

At any time, the at-home spouse can request that the spouse who is out is to take a picture of the people they are with and send it to the at-home spouse. In this day of FaceBookers capturing everything they do to post on their FaceBook page, this is simple to do and does not look unusual at all.

These are rules that we follow. You and your wife need to establish your own rules and follow them. I would suggest that one of your rules would be NO bars or establishments that enable dancing.

How is your reading comprehension?

You missed all the key points that I made.


I can't believe that you respond that you have no problem going out with her drinking, cheat on their husband friends.

Huh? Surely, you didn't mean to say that you approve of her social circle...that divorcee that picks up men at bars is an outstanding role model.



It was an opportunity for the TWO of you to do something since, after all, you've been short on UA time for a good while now. I'm glad to hear that you passed on the excursion, though.

How are things?

I don't feel all that good about it to be honest. It almost seems that trying to follow the program has caused even more conflict than before!

I did ask my wife to post here as well. She posted in the SAA section. I don't know if I'm messing things up by misapplying the advice I've been given or what. I figured if she posted as well, both sides could be seen.

That's good that she posted, hopefully she can get some good input from those that have been in similar situations.

It would be preferable for you not to post on her thread.

Is your UA time the same as before? While I understand your position with kids and work, it's not going to just fix itself...you're going to have to make this time happen and just force your way through it until it becomes easier.

And it will become easier, but I sense that you're just kind of floating along day to day here.

How about those LB's?

I don't intend to post in her thread. I just posted once to say she was my wife to give some context.

Our UA time is basically the same. I know the importance of this. It IS difficult. It is true that I feel as if we are just floating along day to day sometimes from one situation to the next.

I've messed up on the LB a few times. I think I allow myself to become too frustrated.

So what's your plan?

Your wife is already not in love with you, FTF. Lovebusters will just continue to drain your account in her love bank.

We understand this is a horrible situation and that it's easy to become frustrated, but you have to stop all lovebusters. Period.

I hated my husband for what he did, and I really let him have it with both barrels at times. One way he won me back was his persistent and consistent meeting my emotional needs. And even when I pushed him to the limit with my incredible anger toward him, he never ever responded in kind. He was always, without fail, gentle with me. This was a big part of how he won me back.

He would respectfully request SF,but only after he'd done all he could do to show that he loved me.

When you feel yourself getting frustrated, change the subject, change what you're doing, force yourself to relax, but don't give in to the urge to lovebust, even when you feel justified in doing so.

It seems very unfair that the betrayed husband has to woo his unfaithful wife back, but that's what Dr. Harley recommends, and it has worked to create many successful marriages.

Get in that UA time; it's crucial.

Have a plan. Read the books aloud together, a few pages each night. Talk about the topics in a safe and pleasant manner. Get Five Steps to Romantic Love and start working through the worksheets. The Online Seminar was the best expenditure of a thousand dollars that we have ever made. We spent more than that on useless marriage counseling and a divorce will cost a great deal more.

You really should not have done that.

I asked your wife several questions and she was quite capable of answering them and telling me that her H was posting here, and you were him. So far she has not answered any of my questions.

Your popping in to introduce her had the effect of holding her hand, which she doesn't need, and asking me to be "nice" to her - implied that I wasn't being, or was in danger of not being, "nice".

She needs the normal questioning and accountability that we put all spouses here. She'll get fair treatment, no more or less.

My bad. She posted once before on another forum and many of the posters were very cruel to her. It left a very bad taste in her mouth.

My only intention was to not have a similiar experience.

I won't post in her thread again.

Very cruel? Are you sure they were not just calling her to account for the very attitudes you have been complaining about here?

Yes, there was some of that. But there was also a lot of "You should just divorce him".

WW screen name?

You should post it in your tagline.

Her screen name is feuillecouleur. Updated my sig.

You're learning a new way of living. Consider that there will be some growing pains that the two of you will experience while you put this new life together.

Good question, North. FTF, how are you going to change things up? What effort do you plan to make to change the status quo on your UA time?

Well, apparently she doesn't want to spend time with me or even be around me so this will make it more challenging. I really don't think I'm that unpleasant but maybe it's me.

Why do people say war is hell and never say war is a picnic?

Did we lose you, buddy?

No I am still here and working on things. Not sure what to comment on, so I am keeping my mouth shut.

Hi FTF update? Are you upping the ante in the affection department?

I try my best. I really do make a conscious effort to meet her needs as often as I can. I know I'm not perfect, but I think about it all of the time.

I really don't think she is all that interested. She has closed herself off to me and it's all under the banner of "I've never been sexually attracted to you".

It really seems like she simply isn't into me. She wants to be 'not' divorced. That is different from being focused on making a good marriage.

Of course she's not interested! If she was, y'all wouldn't be here, would you?

If only there was a way to make her more interested....

Your plight, and what you are hearing from her, is pretty typical given the state of affairs here. Actually, your case is BETTER than many because your wife is still there!

Dare I ask about UA time?

Ok, here's the deal, FTF.

If things don't change, you're going to get so burned out that you just give up on all of this and file for divorce. And that's a shame, because I doubt that either you or your wife are comfortable with only seeing your children 50% of the time.

Ask yourselves this:

1. Are you both ok NOT seeing your kids whenever you want?
2. Is your wife ok with your kids calling some other woman mommy?
3. Are you ok with your kids calling another man dad?
4. Is your wife ok with not being with the kids on Christmas or Thanksgiving or on birthdays because it's your day?

Probably not, I'd imagine, but that's exactly the kind of crap that accompanies divorces. So, it would seem prudent for both of y'all to bust your asses trying to make this thing work.

Wouldn't you think?

True, the BH tends to have to pull the weight at first but, eventually, your wife is going to have to sign on as well instead of sitting on the sidelines lamenting things in the past that neither of you can do a damned thing about today. You both screwed this thing up, you're both at fault for letting things get so lousy, so now it's time to do something about it.

Wake up. Your oldest is watching and is using you guys as examples of how a marriage works. I think you're a good guy, FTF, and hate to see you go down this road that your on. But it's starting to look like us strangers on the internet care more about your marriage than you do.

Why do I think that you're stuck? Because I don't think that you're making the time for you and your wife. Because I think that you're still in your "parenthood" rut that most of us get into and don't know how in hell to get out of it. Because I think that you're getting so tired of being tired and getting nothing in response from your wife that you're running out of steam and seriously thinking of calling it quits and divorcing her. Because I bet you ponder divorcing her at least a dozen times a day.

And that's certainly your prerogative, and none of us would blame you for walking away from this marriage after the adultery cesspool that you've had dumped on you. But if you want this to succeed, and I think that you want to want it to, then this isn't going to fix itself and you're both going to HAVE to put the time in to give this a go.

Both of you need to either sh*t or get off the pot, in other words.

And if any of this post pisses you off, then those are the areas that you need to really focus on. Most BH's on this forum would kill to be in your shoes.

I spend as much time with her as she will agree to. I take her out as often as she will agree to. What more can I do? I can't force it on her.

We even signed up for a membership at the YMCA this weekend because she suggested it might be a good idea to walk together for lunch every day.

That she did that is a great start.

You guys could really use a vacation, leaving the children with grandparents or whoever.

Hey, she does do something every once in a while. Just enough to string me along a little further. It's like throwing out crumbs, and I keep eating them thinking there will be a loaf of bread at the end, but it's never there.

It's like I said (and you said in so many words), she wants to be 'not' divorced. That's it.

She is willing to be pleasent to be around, but really that's just her being dishonest about her true feelings.

I don't think it's me.

The trail of crumbs can be leading to a loaf or leading away from the loaf.

If you want guarantees that you are walking toward the loaf there is none. So stop walking then. Choice is yours. Though by walking you will find out sooner which way you are really going because the crumb trail will end at the loaf or just end.

Do you know why this was copy and pasted?

"BH - me (37)
WW - her (37) - feuillecouleur
Married June 24, 2000
DS 5 yrs
DD 2 yrs
D-Day 1: Sept 11, 2011, 11 month PA.
D-Day 2: Oct 17, 2011
She left her job Dec 17, 2011.
Found her secret email account Feb 22, 2012.
More TT about second OM, EA.
NC since
No real plan up till finding MB, Jan 2013."

Because you have not really started recovery till you found MB, January 2013. Recovery is a 2 to 5 year trip.

FTF,

Because you have not really started recovery till you found MB, January 2013. Recovery is a 2 to 5 year trip.

I would tack on 1 year because of the horror endured for a long time after the affair was discovered and before he found MB. This isn't such bad news however as most marriages NEVER EVER recover from infidelity, but yours has a chance.

Most marriage counselors advise the betrayed spouse to pull the pin swallow the grenade and continue on as if they were never wounded.

God Bless
Gamma

Isn't that the truth! It would be nice to just escape for a bit.

I know mine still has a chance. I just get discouraged. It's been a long time. I know I didn't start implementing the MB principles until recently. I really wish I would have followed them from the beginning. Lost time and all that.

I wish I would have been a better student in high school. Don't do me much good now, though. But, I have a college degree and a professional license... so my coulda, woulda, shouldas didn't stop a high school dropout and teen parent from improving the present and garunteeing the future.

She wants to be "not divorced?" That's not a wall, sir. That's a door.

I suppose the plan A analogy where the BS keeps throwing pebbles into the river is appropriate here. Just keep meeting needs... it will eventually add up.... keep making LB deposits till you reach threshold.

Good luck.

So....are you going to make this happen?

The suggestion wasn't tongue-in-cheek.

I like the pebble example that Betrayed mentioned. You just need to pick up a big shovel full of gravel, though.

Am I allowed to say I am disappointed that my wife abandoned her thread?

Yes, that's unfortunate.

How are things?

Just ok. I am trying my best to do my part to spend time together but I don't see any real results yet.

I don't get a lot of feedback either. Well, none really. I was learning more about her feelings from her thread than I am able to find out on my own. I just can't ask the same questions that a third party can.

I'm also having a lot of trouble being intimate with her. I think it is because SF just ends up being an in your face reminder of her not wanting me (ever). It really just makes me want to avoid it all together, but that doesn't seem healthy either.

You have two children, so I'd assume that she was into you at some point. No?

You know, I don't think that's proof of anything. She wanted a baby, that I'm sure of.

I remember the first kid, she said "I want a baby so bad I can't stand it." I even remember her saying to me one time that "if we weren't going to have children then we might as well get divorced." Her clock was ticking, and I remember for the first time ever her initiating with me so she could get pregnant. Once that happened, she went back to not wanting it.

The second child was an "accident". When she found out she was pregnant with that one, she said to me "But we never even do it! How can I be pregnant?" Then she went and started up an A.

So no, I don't feel really good about the fact that she wanted me at some point just because we have children.

I know you are trying to make me feel better and give me some hope, and I do appreciate it.

How's that vacation planning going?

How are you doing in the LB department?

I floated the idea of getting away for a few days. She seems agreed we could do it. We went to see grandma and grandpa this weekend. They expressed interest in keeping one of the kids, so I think that will be a good option. just need to find a place for the smallest one.

We haven't talked about where we would go yet.

On the LB. I'm so afraid of saying something wrong that I just shut up most of the time. I find that all I want to talk about is the relationship, but she is happiest not talking about it at all, so I have a hard time being interesting because my mind is so preoccupied with all of this mess.

Then get to working on who can keep the youngest one. Come up with a plan and present it to her.


If you ever get this UA thing fixed and are still reporting her disinterest, I'd then ask you what your exit strategy is here. That is, how long are you going to stay married to this woman? This isn't marriage at all costs.

I'm going to assume that she's reading your thread, but keep an eye out for contact with OM.

Here is something that kind of bothers me...and I find a little strange.

She has never looked up any of my threads or posts ANYWHERE that I've posted. At least as far as I can tell.

I find it strange because I could never do that. I want to know what the heck she is thinking if nothing else! It does come accross to me as disinterested, but maybe that's the way I would have been pre-A too. IDK.

How is your IC with her?

Your affection? What are her top ENs? What are you doing to fill them?

Fight, you need to keep the momentum going on this idea. Put the kids to bed, pull out your laptop and sit with WW to brainstorm ideas on where you would like to go. Make a list. Google the places and read together about them. Build enthusiasm about this idea and make plans!

FTF,

"But we never even do it! How can I be pregnant?"

Are you sure your 2nd child is yours, because if your WW is still hiding some huge secret you will never recover no matter how much you work at it.

Did you ever confront the OM? It just sounds like your WW has a real lack of respect for you. Her attitude on the MB radio program was jocular like she was laughing at you.

God Bless
Gamma

She listed her top needs as IC, FC, and AD.

Specifically?

Well, for IC, I make it a point to engage her every afternoon when I get home about how her day was. We talk about the children and things that they do often. (This is the easiest conversation we have). Whenever we are together I start something up about anything. I try to look for reasons to talk with her. Sometimes it is when we are with the kids, but I try to get it in whenever I can.

For family time, I come home every day and play with the children. Especially when she is cooking dinner so they will leave her alone. I put the youngest to bed every night. I take every opportunity to go with them when the are going somewhere. For example, this past Saturday, she wanted to take them to the park. I had something else I was planning to do but I dropped it to go to the park with them. I also tried to get in some IC and AF and whatever else I coulkd get into that day but the kids kept going in different directions. ha!

For AD, I look for opportunities to compliment her. For example, she colored her hair last weekend and I've made many comments since about how good it looks and how I like the color. (I do!) I also notice when she curls it up and it looks nice. Another example is I compliment her on how good the meal is that she cooks. Like last night, she just made up something and I told her how good she was at coming up with something and how good it was.

I'm really sure. I did not have a test done, but she has offered several times. The child does look exactly like our other child at that age. I don't think that's the secret, but my gut does say there may be something else. But then again that could just be because of the way she acts that makes me wonder. IDK.

Oh and yes I did confront the OM via phone. At the time, my strategy was to threaten him with exposure to his W if he didn't leave mine alone. That was abotu a month after D-Day. I did not tell my wife about it at the time. She was left wondering why he stopped coming by to see her.

Later on, I ended up telling his W anyway because I thought it was the right thing to do. That was about 6 months afetr D-Day though. Better late than never I guess. About 6 months after that, they moved away to another state.

Well if it looks like the other child that is good. But it would be better if it looked like you.

Why not get certainty?

What is the purpose of getting "certainty" ? This child is FtheF's, he was there at his birth, he has raised him, he loves him, and he is sure he is of his own blood. What would getting "certainty" change? I'm sorry, I just don't want that child to be looked upon differently because someone placed a seed of doubt in his father's head.

What if you said 'yes' to her offer? The offer, in itself, is kind of odd so her response would be telling.

Kits are, I'm sure, available by mail should you change your mind.

I totally agree with you Rocketqueen. That's how we see it in our family too.

The only reason would be, that total honesty is important in a marriage and if FTF's wife is possibly withholding information about the extent of the affair, then that is damaging to the marriage. Also, FTF is in the difficult position that he is fighting for his marriage with his wife semi-on board and it is in his best interest to know everything so that he can make informed decisions.

I would recommend a polygraph then, to be sure FTF has the whole truth. Make a list of questions for WW to answer and then have the polygraph guy ask if she was truthful in her answers to them. FTF, any ideas what you think she is NOT being truthful about?

FightThe Fight, my thinking as far as the question of DD's paternity is if you went ahead and did the paternity test, and found she wasn't your biological chld, would it change anything?

Well, it's not odd in context. I'm the one who originally suggested it might be necessary. This was back when I found out about her secret email account and was considering leaving.

The internet and these forums are by nature restrictive when it comes to actually getting a clear sense about how another person thinks.
I just could not get a handle on your WW's thinking at all.
Her guard, her emotional wall, seems very impenetrable. This is not usually a result of a WW having an affair. Was your wife always this impervious to emotional intimacy? You see, it is actually emotional intimacy she resists.

If you think she was emotionally intimate with OM, I'm here to tell you she was not. She fakes it.

I know I am saying things that probably seem to be a great stretch being I only have forum-based data.

But, you know her. Am I very wrong?

But wouldn't such words typically belong to a spouse that was all-in and wanting the marriage to work?

Or would they belong to someone that was thinking that volunteering for a checkup would cause you to drop the subject? Because, after all, why would she say "go ahead" if she knew that she was guilty?

Who knows. Your call.

That's my question as well. Is this just a segment in a long chain of consistent events and behavior.

That's a deeper question than you might think. As far as the law is concerned, she is mine, end of story. As far as I am concerned she is mine. I am daddy.

Would it change anything? Well, I'd say it would have a serious affect on my desire to be married.

Nah, she is not bluffing. I could speculate, but that just gets me into trouble. For example, suppose she wasn't sure it was mine until the kid was born? I would never get a truthful answer to that. But again, that's just paranoia I think?

I don't think you are very wrong. She has very high walls and shuts down to anything that resembles being emotionally intimate.

She retreats.

Very few times have I gotten a real emotional response from her that she will verbalize. I read about how women in general like to talk about relationship and this and that. She is not like that at all.

It's not just with you that she shuts down. You understand this, right?



She's afraid.


Have you ever seen a powerful non-verbal response? Under what circumstance, if any?

Well, I guess you are right, but I only know what I see when I am around so it is possible she is not like that with others. How would I know? But I think you are right.

Not sure what to do with that information though.


Maybe she is.


The only thing I can think of off the top of my head. This made an impression on me.

One time, she was out in the back lawn mowing the grass and th eoldest (at the time the only) was out back as well. Our backyard is fenced in, but our front yard is on a semi-busy street.

Well, she had come into the back yard through the gate and left it open. Our son wondered out of the gate and to the road. A man in a van saw him, stopped, and brought him back to the back where my wife was still mowing.

The first I heard of it was a scream through the house of "Hey A**hole! Our son was down by the road and you were supposed to be watching him!

Never does she speak this way to me so I was stunned a little.

I then made a mistake and kind of blabbered something about the gate being open and wasn't she the last one through it?

Oh that did not go over well. She said "Oh yea you're right, it's my fault." very sarcasitcally and then STOPMED around the yard as she finished mowing the grass.

I know that was a verbal and non-verbal thing but it's one of the few I can remember.

Most of the time she gets mad about something but clams up and retreats. usually to sleep.

OK. I was actually thinking about emotional responses that might demonstrate emotional intimacy. Her deep emotional investment in someone other than herself?
Have you ever seen her eyes well up with tears when she was overcome with joy/beauty/happiness?

She cries at movies sometimes or maybe when reading a sad story.

I don't think I've ever seen her cry in happiness or joy, but I could be mistaken. it could be I just don't remember it.

OK.
Is this conversation going OK with you? You can ask me to stop anytime, and I will stop.

I was wondering what Dr Harley would ask your wife if he were to post to her. I wonder if your wife is too impervious to intimacy to permit you to meet her intimate ENs.

I just can't tell.

I mean, we can tell you a hundred ways to meet her ENs, but if she is decidedly walled off, I'm not sure where to go next.

Have you ever written to the radio program?

They were on the radio program Jan 16th of this year. They are in the first four segments -- Wendy & John. I don't see where the links to their segments were ever posted to his thread, and I don't know how Brainy works it.

This was us.

It's fine. I'm just not sure what you are trying to get at.

Pepperband, did you listen to the show? I remember that Wendy sounded devoid of emotion, IF my memory is correct.

To be fair, you don't do a lot of speaking as a caller.

When Joyce was going over the A for background purposes, I saw some emotion on my W face. She definately was not comfortable with it. I remember thinking that I felt a little better knowing she looked like she actually felt bad about it. I don't get that emotion expressed much although I do think it is there.

I'm searching for a way to help your wife.

My husband has an enigmatic style too. Very difficult to recover and difficult to describe the troubles to this site. Hard to feel validated anywhere.

That's funny because for me, looking at your situation without anything invested in it, I'd tell you to bail and let him chase you for a change.

Which makes me wonder if I was reading my own story, would I advise me to do the same thing?

It is different when you have some skin in the game, yes? Emotions are a part of it.

People used to pass around a bit that in one of the infidelity articles, Dr. Harley stated that if he ever had an affair Joyce would kill him, and that if Joyce ever had an affair he would never see or speak to her ever again.

This used to be passed around to people who felt like throwing in the towel.


However, what followed that statement was key to the point that Dr. Harley would make; that is the way most people think they would react to their spouse having an affair.


Generally, we have no idea how we would react to a situation we have never faced, nor do we have an idea how we would react to a repeat of the same situation were it to happen again.

We can try to decide how we will act, but how we feel about it is outside of our control.

FTF,

That's a deeper question than you might think. As far as the law is concerned, she is mine, end of story. As far as I am concerned she is mine. I am daddy.

Would it change anything? Well, I'd say it would have a serious affect on my desire to be married.

Ultimately it's more a matter of getting radical honesty from your WW, which a couple needs to thrive, and the shortcut to this is a polygraph. Whatever is true needs to be known. Perhaps your WW was an emotionless cheater for years who lived off of the pure lust of a series of affairs, perhaps it's that she was molested as a child and never told you?

The thing is that you don't want to be in your marriage 10 or 20 years from now with the same doubts, and a W who refuses to talk anymore. This is where I am now.

God Bless
Gamma

So new question. How can I keep things in the forefront of my W mind? We had a great discussion last night based on why she was afraid to open her LB$ to me. As of this afternoon though, it's like we never talked. I said something about it and she said "Oh gosh I haven't even thought about it."

Really? I feel like I'm engaged in this thing all of the time. I am constantly thinking things over and going over all of this in my mind and it's like she doesn't give it a second thought unless I bring it up.

I kind of feel like just compensation is making an effort to keep this on the front burner for lack of a better expression.

Am I off base here? Thoughts?

No, you're not off base here. A WW is different than a WH, who is more likely to come back hat-in-hand. Your situation is well understood, though you'd probably benefit from hearing from a FWW in this.

All I can suggest is that you give her a reason to get involved in the marriage again. To her, I suspect, it's the same old same old...as though nothing really changed with the affair so why would she hope that it would get any better? Sure, there's lots of talk but nothing really comes of it. She's already checked out, your goal is to get her engaged again...if you still want to.

Only you can decide how long you'll wait for her to get on board, and I believe that she should be made aware of this fact: that you aren't hanging around forever and that this will end in divorce if things don't change.

But I don't really think that you guys have even given this a chance or a start, if you will. It all goes back to the UA time which is not something that you can really skim over. She even acknowledges the concept in her thread and admits that your amount of time spent together is pretty paltry.

If spending time together was easy, then you wouldn't be here to begin with.

What about this vacation that was discussed a few days ago? If I recall, she was open to it and there was talk about childcare arrangements. Did you bring it up since then?

Continuing as-is didn't work then and it won't work now or in the future.

Well that's part of the problem of course. She came straight out and told be day before yesterday that she didn't think spending time together was going to make someone fall in love. She believes there has to be a spark there first.

Again she sounds a lot like my hubby ---very skeptical and marginally interested or not at all. I can say it does not help to explain how this works. But now after 3 years of my husband relaying his IB beliefs and philosophies when I attempted to 'straighten him out'---- here is what is happening: He is coming around. Sometime its dramatic and more often its slight shifts. There is more positive these days then the maddening pessimism and ambivalence.

Here is what I feel has happened and helped:

When my husband would say something disheartening like what your wife said for example: she does not believe spending time together will create love.

That's the kind of stuff I'd hear. And its not like my husband had any kind of solution that would truly be helpful either. And its not like he was spending time searching for an answer or running to a lawyer. And he hasn't come on here to debate his philosophies in this forum. We tried a counselor and he wouldn't talk or try their methods either. Apparently he just wanted to stay in one place and have me running circles so we could be miserable.

I think I read every self help marriage book there is. I've got this big stack. I also tried one on one counseling and thankfully I understood the weaknesses in that route from this place.

Now finally I'd say its me who's changed. I'd come here and post when we first started three years ago. But after awhile as my husband was so enigmatic and supposedly philosophically superior I could not stand the inertia, failure, and rejection. Coming here felt like I was rubbing my nose over and over in my own failure.

But finally being lonely more with my husband then with out him pulled me back in. I had to do something and felt I at least have to be all in or out. Not long ago when my husband was making one of the disheartening comments about this program I told him this program is now part of me. He had claimed he want to remain married to me. I said well dear this program is me, its who I am now. So of course if he reject the program he rejects me.

Just time is not enough.
Quality mutually pleasurable time is what is required.

Of course. Caught the W on the computer this morning looking for places we might go on our mini vacation.

Your wife says you only spend 11 hours a week together.
Dr Harley says you need to spend 20 hours.
What's going on?

Well we now have a plan in place that is bumping that up to 19.

We have added 2 hours each Sat and Sun during the day where we can go to the YMCA and have the kids watched there. We also get 4 hours at night on Fri and Sat. That gives us 12 hours just those two days.

The rest is 1 to 1.5 hours every other night of the week although the quality of that time isn't as good I'll admit.

Okay. These 1 hour times in the evening.
Are they alone time?
Are you able to meet emotional needs?

Are you listening to the radio show every day (you can listen on your smartphone with the free MB app)

Yes, it is alone time. I'll admit that it is mostly time spent on the couch watching some of our fav shows. It does give us something to talk about durin gthe commercials and the next morning.

I know TV time isn't ideal, but it IS something we both enjoy and I've started making sure we are on the same end of the couch. I've found a position where she can lay on me and feel comfortable and that lets me have a chance to hug her close.

We usually end up making something to go along with it like popcorn so we have that going on.

I've also been able to get some discussions going by talking during the commercials or switching it to something she is not all that interested in so that she doesn't mind talking during whatever it is.

So yes, I am able to get in some IC and AF during those times.


I have the app and listen to the whole thing every day. I have headphones and catch it in about 10 min segments throughout the day as I take my breaks at work.

Way to go FTF! Great job adapting to the TV situation by applying MB concepts. I really like the hold her as ya'll watch idea! I use that one myself.
Keep it up, your doing great!

I'm sorry but this advice flatly contradicts the crystal clear advice that Dr H gives, in print and on the radio show, frequently enough that it should have sunk in for all MB posters by now.

TV watching isn't UA time. Talking about TV programmes in the intervals isn't UA time. Your marriage to your very withdrawn wife will never recover from her affair unless you start dating again, which means getting out of the house for 20 hours a week, without the kids. The only thing you can do at home that counts as UA time involves taking your clothes off.

I'm sorry to contradict the poster that gave this advice - but as a fairly new poster you are getting things wrong sometimes. We won't help struggling marriages by back-slapping and high-fiving attempts to "adapt" the programme. It must be done properly the way Dr H intended, or a marriage in as much trouble as this one will fail.

Okay........... You need to DEDUCT any time that is spent watching TV. Obviously, you are not focused on each other when you are doing that so it is NOT undivided attention.

You can keep doing this, but I just tell you that you are wasting your time. It is very destructive when a couple pretends like they are working a concept when they are not. The reason it is so destructive is because you will eventually decide the "program doesn't work" when your pencil whipping exercise doesn't benefit you AT ALL.

If you want to get ANY benefit from this program, you are going to have to REALLY DO IT. Altering the program to suit a lifestyle that cannot sustain a marriage will avail you nothing. You have to alter the HABITS that did not sustain your marriage.

So, just deduct any time that was spent watching the boob tube. What are you left with then?

How is it that you have TIME to watch the stupid TV but don't have time to get your UA time?

If you want to change your marriage, you will have to change your BEHAVIOR, *not* the program.

That is a good start! [just delete the TV watching] What are you doing on Friday and Saturday? Can you get a couple of hours in during the week? For example, going out to dinner or a drive? The time needs to be spread out during the week in 2-4 hour blocks.

FFF, I have read through your wife's thread and I believe there is something keeping her in withdrawal. You might not even be aware of it and she might not be able to articulate it. Longwayfromhome and Sugarcane have made an excellent suggestion that she go fill out the Marital problem analysis and the lovebusters questioniare. Please encourage her to fill those out HONESTLY and come back and share them with us. That may pinpoint the problem.

Look, I know the TV watching doesn't really count. I'll bet I can recite chapter and verse as good as anybody here. I have read and read and re-read.

I know that the following don't count:

movie watching
tv watching
going out with friends
going out with children
playing on a softball team together

I get it, I really do, but I can't make my wife want to do the right things.

But I will try harder. Maybe I can convince her to do 3 nights a week out.

SC,Don't be sorry you are absolutely correct.
FTF Watching TV is not UA time.
I only meant to applaud the interjection of IC and AF into that time.
I am Sorry for the confusion.

Friday, we usually go out to eat somewhere and then just hang out. We have been to play pool, have drinks, etc.

Saturday, we have been gone to a place to see live music a few times in a row. I almost feel like that doesn't count either because we are mostly sitting there watching them play, but we do get to talk if we choose to. We do a lot of people watching during this time and commenting on things we see. Stuff like that.

In my limited experience, I believe that UA time should not include any distractions. Watching TV, going to the movies, watching a band, those are all distractions from being together. They are excuses for being in the same room, but not reasons to build your marriage. Playing pool seems OK to me but you have to spend that time meeting each others 4 intimate emotional needs. Other than recreation, pool doesnt really do that.

If you're going to stay home, try a board game or exercising g together. Look for opportunities to admire her and get affectionate. It doesn't have to lead to SF all the time but make her feel pretty and desired.

My W and I exercise together everyday. Its good to co pliment each other and even make a pass once in a while.

If you go out, remember that your goal is to meet the ENs so it has to be an environment that allows that.

You are right to be thinking like this. The gage should be this: are we meeting each others needs for conversation, affection, RC or SF? So if you are watching a band and not talking, that wouldn't really meet your purpose either. The focus should be on each other.

FTF, the simple comparison chart is this: what EN are you meeting right now? if you are watching tv, you clearly aren't having IC, offering admiration, or having SF! (well, i hope not, anyhow, in this particular sitch!) tv watching, as much as some folks like my addict H would love it to be RC, is not. you have to be having FUN, WITH each other (with being the keyword).

my husband and i like to go to a cafe in town where all the tables are outside in our pretty little city center. if we just sit, eat our cake, and people watch, are we meeting any ENs? NOPE.

but, if we sit to eat our cake, and flirt, talk, touch, etc, THEN we are meeting those important intimate needs. we are being attractive to each other, being attracTED to each other. that's the kind of thing you're aiming for with your wife.

i'm sorry i haven't read your whole thread, but can i ask...are you making yourself attractive to her? i know my H really got "comfortable" after many years of marriage. i had to make it clear to him (thank goodness for EN questionnaires!) that he is *more* attractive to me when he keeps his hair cut, shaves regularly, and wears something halfway decent when we go out together. my husband is your typical kiwi blokey-bloke (shorts, t-shirts, workboots, year-round!), so this was a big step for him nearly 20 years down the track. however, i dress up nice to make myself attractive to him - he needs to do the same! i'm not talking a 3 piece suit, just clean, tidy "california casual" clothes. no, he can't rely on his his big ole self (physically, he is exactly my "type," even at 50+) doing the trick by just being present. <--my point there is that even if you were her "type," that's not necessarily a bonus. *everyone* needs to work at keeping up that PA.

the heat it generates between us is worth the few minutes time it takes to get dolled up a bit.

your wife fell in love with you once upon a time. you *can* bring that magic back into your relationship. we'll work on her on her end, but you've got to up the UA time and focus on meeting those ENs. that is your #1 goal.

Thanks for the example. I think we do have that problem. We will go out together, but I'm not sure were are actually meeting any needs. I'll think about that in the future.

To answer your question though, I do make it a point to dress nicer when we go out. I treat it like a date with a women I am trying to impress. I'm always showered and smelling good for our times out together.

Dude, were you yet advised against reading your spouse's thread?

From "Who's Online" earlier

FightTheFight...User...Member...03/15/13 08:06 AM/...Reading a post...Forum: Surviving an Affair...Thread: unwilling

Things are said by colleagues here to each spouse that cannot but influence the opposite number, sometimes in negative directions.

There is no way that's not gonna happen. I could lie to you and say I won't but then I'd be lying.

So following up on the discussion from yesterday about what was considered UA time, I pulled out the recreational inventory sheet and we both listed things we liked to do.

We have done this in the past but I wanted to go over it again. It appears that several of thie things on the list that we both rank as high enjoyment items are not good UA activities. (TV, movies, concerts) Which makes me wonder why put them on there at all, but I digress.

We did find a few that I thought would be ok. Camping, bowling, sightseeing. maybe we will just go driving around. Anyway, we are going to go bowling this Sat instead of the music thing.

Here's a quote from HNHN on Recreational Companionship:

"...The fifteen hours a week you and your spouse schedule to give each other undivided attention should not be peppered with calls to the office or errands that distract your attention from each other.

"On the other hand, recreational activities can become a part of this time without causing any resentment if the activity is not too distracting. When couples are courting, they tend to combine conversation and affection with recreational activities. It's a very natural blend that increases the pleasure that couples experience when they're together.

"I encourage couples to try to use at least part of their 15 hours for recreational activities. The only condition that must be met is that the activity cannot prevent a couple from giving each other undivided attention. If a favorite activity is too distracting to qualify, then a couple must schedule time outside their 15 hours to engage in it together."

So if you and your W want to schedule a concert, go ahead. Enjoy the drive over, hold her hand/cuddle while at the concert, maybe get a coffee or bite to eat afterward. The concert is not likely to allow for much conversation, so you wouldn't count that time toward your 15 hours. But you would both enjoy the date and have something fun to talk about.

Well, the kind of thing we have been going to is at a restaurant / bar that has live music after say 9 PM. We usually go a couple of hours early and have dinner first. Then we sit at the bar and watch the band play. Then we go home. So it's not really like a traditional concert type thing.

The drive over is only like 15 mins.

I always just assume spouses will read each others threads. I know they do! At least you are honest about it!

BECAUSE, not all RC is to be included in UA time.


Do you like going shopping together? Some of our BEST UA time is spent shopping. As long as it isn't at a place either of us hates. There are stores we both enjoy and we have the best time there!

But if I take him to the mall, he starts getting "sick" after about 20 minutes. I am serious. He gets PHYSICALLY sick and I heard Dr Harley say the same thing happens to him on the radio this week!!

And God help me if I take him to the MAKE UP counter in a department store!! He makes derogatory remarks about the prices.

OK that makes sense. I don't think we really have time for anything but UA time right now though.


My W DOES NOT want me shopping with her at the mall. I don't make comments about the prices but I think she "knows" I'm thinking it.

Shopping at the right store might be an idea though. I know my W loves to shop.

WE have found this to be the key. Stores that we both like are Sams, Wal-Mart, Bath and Body Works and short stints through JC Penney.

Thrift shop!


FTF,

I HATE shopping with my wife (I remember one excursion that was 6 hours to put together 3 outfits).

But... I love shopping FOR my wife.

So I git my W to look at the marital problem questionnaire. Here is the issue. She can't or won't identify anything as a problem. ????

It's frustrating to me because I can't get any direction from her. It was basically the same thing with the needs questionnaire. Everything she listed as not being satisfied with she also listed as me doing it often enough and in a way she likes?

It's like I'm left shooting in the dark.

On a good mote, we went on our bowling date last night and she said it was the most fun she has had in a long time. So +1 for finding something we like to do together. I did take into account whether we were meeting each others needs for IC, RC, AF, and SF.

Well, RC was there of course. It was hard to get her to talk about anything intimate, so I just started talking about problems I was having with some things at work. That was about the extent of IC though. I tried though I really did.

For AF I tried to include as much physical touch as I could in the context of what we were doing. Kisses in place of high fives was a fav. I complimented her on her form and such to get in some AD, since she lists that as a top 5. SF did not happen at the bowling alley obviously. It wasn't on the menu when we got home either, although I did receive a bit of a neck massage after we got home because I had a bit of a headache. (I had to remind her that she had offered, but at least it was there).

You are crying out for Harley coaching. Both you and your wife want a loving marriage - that she does is evident to me from her depression at the state of her life now. She needs guidance to get her to do the things, like the questionnaire, that will give you both tasks to work on. you can't be that guide because right now she doesn't want anything from you.

Forgive me for not re-reading the entire thread. Is money a problem, stopping you from consulting with Jennifer Chalmers? And beyond that, can you afford the online course?

Even a free email to Dr Harley would give you direction. I suggest that your wife writes to him from her point of view. It would be so good if she would agree to talk to him on the radio show - but even jus email advice would make a difference.

So has all this been suggested to you before? Recently, since your wife began posting?

Where do you stand financially on coaching?

We did speak top Dr. Harley on the radio shop, although I don't think we really got to the heart of the matter. Or maybe we did?

As far as the online course, we could purchase it right now with the money we have in savings. There would not be agreement on spending it though. And to be honest, I'm not sure I want to drop the coin on something I'm almost sure she would not be willing to go all in on and work it either.

The phone coaching would be my choice although it is out of our price range long term. I might be able to sell some sessions, but this will limit our ability to get out of the house. The truth is we probably could not afford the phone coaching AND date nights 2 or 3 times a week.

i noticed you suggested Jennifer? Any particular reason?

I think this is your best shot, because it is the most likely thing to motivate your wife. The Harleys don't do "long term" coaching anyway. I doubt it will take that long to get your wife on board. Once you just get her on board, you can do the rest on your own with the help of the forum. Your biggest obstacle is motivating your wife and I think a few sessions might do that for you.

And I think Dr Chalmers would be the best option for you because she is the same gender as your wife.

She has agreed to do it if I set it up. For those who have done this, should I just call them up and request her by name?

FTF--

Just skimmed your sitch here but got enough of it to know that our situations are VERY familiar.

My ex said a lot of the same things (even said she did need or want a man but hasn't gone without one since I left 2 years ago)-did a lot of the same things-had and still has the same toxic friend(s). We ended in d and the reason I chose that route was because when we started working on our marriage after d-day I told her any contact would put us in d. Well you can guess what happened and I followed through with my promise.

NG. hit a home run with me when he told me what are gonna be her consequences if she doesn't follow NC--well I told her and I backed it up!

That was 2 years ago--I have been in plan b since and am rebuilding my new life and am totally ok with it.

We counseled with the harleys for about 5 months--I do recommend going with JC just because from my experience she will probably connect better with your ww than SH---only reason I say this is because if your ww is anything like mine (kinda sounds like it) no male is going to be able to TEACH her anything.

That's great news, FTF, glad to hear that she's open to it!

thanks for the reply IS. I read your thread this weekend along with your WW thread. To be honest it kind of made me paranoid that there was some kind of contact still going on even though I am pretty sure there is not any "real" contact.

What I mean is, I don't think she is contacting him, but she may be still thinking of him in some form. I wonder if she has songs that remind her, or maybe she thinks of her former job often which was associated with the A. It could be lots of things, and I know she wouldn't tell me if nothing else for fear of "hurting me".

My W's A did not die a natural death. It at first ended because I called up the OM and threatened him over the phone. This was after my stupid mistake of believing her when she told me she had ended it herself after D-Day. It ultimately ended because I "made her" leave her job.

I made her write him a NC letter. I had been advised to expose to OMW, but chose to ignore the advice at the time. I went to the post office and had it mailed certified so he had to sign for it. My wife was afraid that OMW would find out because of this, so the every next day she went to work and wrote him a note telling him that the letter was coming. So the NC letter was a sham since she broke it the very next day! This was partially my fault of not exposing of course. (I eventually did expose to OMW)

She had many protests to leaving her job. "We work in different parts of the building and hardly ever see each other". "He is leaving in a few months anyway". "He'll never talk to me again now. (because you called him)"

So I think a big part of the problem is she still thinks he is a "good guy" and it was her that messed things up because she got caught. She is resentful to this day for me making her quit her job. She is resentful to this day for me telling OMW. She is resentful to this day for me not allowing contact with her former "work friends". She doesn't like that I want her to take EP like not having friends of the OS. I don't think she has really in her heart of hearts taken full responsibility for the consequences of the A.

Now mind you she gives lip service to it. She has learned since what to "not say". She chooses her words carefully, but I don't get the sense that there is a whole lot of deep rooted feeling behind it.

This reminds me of a saying that Reagan used regarding the Soviets.

I saw absolutely no remorse in my exww and I knew that others on here told me that wild horses couldn't run off a wayward when they are wanting to reconcile so that just told me she was never serious about fixing our marriage.

Today is living with om3 or 4 not sure what the number is now. My kids have been exposed to all of her om and she will never "get it"! I don't spend an ounce of time or energy on her and don't care what happens to her--just my girls.

As far as the BS your ww spews about resent towards you--IGNORE IT! She obviously doesn't comprehend what she has done yet and hopefully for her own sake she will get out of the fog and look back at her past behaviors with a great deal of regret!

Funny how all waywards become experts at blame shifting--they sure don't take any responsibility for the state of their marriages but are sure quick to blame their spouses.

I haven't read your entire thread, but have you demanded a polygraph? I wish I would've done that!!! Trickle truths suck a$$!

Yea, I don't trust AND I do verify. (Really what Reagan was probably thinking too).

But you can't possibly cover all of the bases. Last March, I caught her secret email account she was using to talk to the "friend" from work that encouraged and actually helped facilitate her A. I only caught it because she messed up and checked it from home. She had been using the computers at the library and going to the mall to use the pay phones.

You think she will make the mistake of using our home computer again? I don't. But I can't hang out at the mall and library every day. So I check what I can and keep my eyes OPEN. And it's why I am very sensitive to any little thing that looks out of place.

Assuming that she's reading your thread, I wouldn't discount anything.

I almost wish I could have more clear cut choices. My W is totally nice to me on an everyday basis. Even if she felt exactly like your WW, she would never say it. She knows better than to voice that kind of stuff. I am left feeling like her actions don't match her words a lot of the time. But it's never anything really way over the line. It's a lot of up to the line and see if I can stick my toe over kind of stuff. It's really frustrating to me.

Did you get a call scheduled with Dr. Chalmers?

Yes, I would ask to get an appointment with Dr Chalmers. Have you spoken to the OMW recently to see if she sees anything on her end?

I'm doing it at lunch today.

I have only spoken to her once when I exposed to her. I got an email from her a few days after that asking me to send her the recording I had made of the call where I confronted her H.

OM was very hard to get evidence on. Unlike my W, he does not text, does not have a FB page, etc. He is very difficult to get any electronic evidence on. That's one of the reasons I recorded the call, because then I had him on audio admitting to the whole thing.

I haven't heard from her since and they have moved out of the area. I hesitate to contact her because she probably doesn't want to ever hear about OW again.

FTF, I highly suspect your WW is still in contact with her AP, or her enablers. Your reveal about the secret email is proof that she took her actions underground. She is being very careful.

Also on her thread I outright told her that the reason she is unwilling is that she is in contact with her AP and she gave no response. No anger, no denial, nothing. I would ask her to stay away from places where she could have unrestricted email access for now as a measure of protection so you can feel safe in the marriage. I'm not an expert so I don't know if the vets would have anything to say on that.

I don't know but when I read both your posts I have an uneasy feeling that she is still wayward.

Regarding the evidence, yes send it to the BW and enlist her help in monitoring communication.

I think I may have misread. Did you send the recording to the BW? I wouldn't hesitate to contact her again if it puts your mind at ease.

I just don't think so. Maybe the enablers, but not the AP. i do a lot of checking up.

I think the reason she doesn't respond is that she just sees it as an attack and it does make her angry. She doesn't want to be told "how bad she is". Just this Friday, she told me it was hard to hear that she was selfish when she does everything for everybody around here. (Meaning the children, ours and the ones she watches)

I let that statement go. Just going to lead to an argument.

Yes, when I spoke with her I told her I had it. A few days later she asked to hear it so I sent it to her.

I spoke with the counceling center. Just FYI, Dr. Chalmers does not do coaching every day like Steve does, so they are going to get back to me with her schedule.

Boy, I really wish your W didn't know about this thread -- but all the above really is a huge red flag (as the others have been trying to telling you) there may still be contact. You realize that even one-sided contact will keep her foggy as well, right? That includes looking at pictures, notes, emails, mementos of the affair. If she is on FB and is looking at OM's page or a mutual friends' page and sees his comments, pics, etc, that will also keep her stuck.

On the flip side, if there is truly NC and what I pointed out above as red flags is still true, then you need to keep your GUARD way up, because she is still dangerous.

One other note: Coaching with JC will be much more effective if you truly are sure there is NC. I'd hate to see you dismiss it and waste the $$ and time if there is still something going on.

I hear what you are saying. Like I said, the OM doesn't even have a FB page. He is not an electronic guy at all. No smart phone, etc. In fact, when I discovered the A in the first place, it wasn't contact between him and her, it was her talking to a "friend" about it.

As far as one-sided contact, the only thing I can think of would be stuff in her mind, or maybe songs or something.

And as for the red flag stuff you quoted, I was just sitting here wondering if a lot of this is just in my own head. I'm wondering if I am just so messed up in the head now that I am driving myself crazy!

I wonder if these are just my perceptions of what she thinks. Like I said, she has gotten very good at knowing what to say and what not to say. I'm just not convinced she believes it.

Recent example: Saturday, I look on her phone and there is a text message from the guy whos kid she watches during the day. Came in at 7PM.

It says "Thanks for the offer, but he wants to go to the park tomorrow. Do they have a place there where he can ride his bike?"

She responds "Yes they do. Our son rides his bike there all the time. Have fun!"

So later on, I ask her about it because I'm thinking "what offer?" and she had invited him to bring his son with us to the St. Patricks Day parade on Saturday. All I said was "I'd rather you not do that." Then I shut up.

She then went into and explanation that he and another lady were standing there with their kids and she told them we were going to the parade and that they should come too. She didn't mean anything by it.

And she probably didn't. She is just friendly. I can totally see it going down like that, but it just rubs me the wrong way. Like I said, maybe I am just messed up.

That's a red flag. Why he she watching his kids I thought one of the EPs where no OS friends. Did you POJA the fact your having another man and another child at your family event. That is the cause of your angst.

Is she watching these kids as a favour or as a paid service?

This is a paid service. She watches two kids after school. This kid is only 3 so she watches him all day depending on the guys work schedule.

FTF you need to establish what makes YOU feel safe in the marriage. You are NOT crazy. Stop psyching yourself out. Your feelings are valid because your spouse is not following the rule of protection.

If you need to put some more EPs in place do it. You shouldn't be walking on the edge like this all the time.

Well, we have a session with Jennifer this Sunday. We'll see how it goes.

Two positive things lately. One is she wanted to go to the YMCA during the day to take a class. This makes me a little nervous because the gym seems to be one of those places A's start up rountinely. So I voiced my concern and she has decided to put it off and just go when we can go together for now.

Second one is that hse wanted to invite parade guys kid to our DD's birthday party. Bad news is she even suggested inviting him. Good news is that when I said it made me uncomfortable, she said she inderstood and wil not invite them.

FTF,

I hear what you are saying. Like I said, the OM doesn't even have a FB page. He is not an electronic guy at all. No smart phone, etc.

Is this an older OM? Did you write the new school district about his character.

What does your WW feel about what she did to OMW?

God Bless
Gamma

No, he is the same age as us (38). He is just still in the 20th century.

I did not write the new school district. I did track him down and know where his new school is.

My W has never said anything about OMW, so I don't know how she feels.

We had our first session with Jennifer yesterday. It did not go exactly like I thought it would. I guess I wanted to do a little more complaining and explaining. She spent a lot more time on the phone with my W.

She did give us some work to do this week, so I will follow through on what she has suggested.

She wants us to fill out the ENQ again, and this time on a sheet of paper, we are to define exactly what it is that we want (but not share it yet). That will be the hardest part I think.

I'll reply to NG here since I am banished from my W's thread. The SF issue has not been successfully POJAed yet. She did bring it up Monday night as we were going to sleep. I suggested every other night. She countered with Tuesdays and Fridays. I said "What about Saturdays and Sundays?" To that I received no reply, just zzzzzzzzzzz.

This issue is very difficult for me to negotiate on because I harbor resentments about it. I spent a lot of my free time today reading the Using resentment as a punishment thread because I want to avoid doing that and it had some discussion on the SF issue and enthusiastic agreement as it related to meeting ENs.

My resentment revolves around the fact that she gave it up to OM on demand and complained to her "friends" using lines like "Why doesn't he want it more." and "We used to do it every day".

Here is a direct quote that I read in one of her emails talking about OM:


and...


And when questioned about this, she says "Oh, well, to me every day means once a week." BTW, she admitted to the every day thing until I suggested that schedule for ourselves, then the story changed to the above.

So, you could say I have a little resentment about it.

FTF,

Come up with a list of 100 questions, about every possible topic and angle, have her write out her answers.

Get her a polygraph for her in which the main question is did you answer the FTFs questions honestly. A secondary question might be something like is there anything else FTF should know.

That WW is still changing her story indicates that she is holding back to spare your feelings, but this lack of honesty is choking your real recovery.

I don't get how women can settle for a life of indifferent chastity, I'm dealing with that now.

God Bless
Gamma

That wasn't really my point. I already KNOW what happened because it is in her own words in the emails she wrote. She only changed the story because I suggested that I should get at least the same treatment with regards to frequency and enthusiasm that OM got. When I say "changed the story" I mean she explained it away as "When I say every day, I mean twice a week, because that feels like everyday to me." That conversation was probably a year ago now, but it is one of the items on my mountain of resentment.

There is also to issue of her never turning him down. I asked her one time if she ever turned him down when he asked. She said she remembered telling him on two occasions that she couldn't do it that day. Twice in 10 months. So every rejection I get seems to add to the mountain.

So this needs to be resolved in some way. I've thought about this every which way. I need to escape the shadow of the mountain. I need to find a way to get away from it. But it seems like this isn't in the past. Every rejection in in the present. Every negotiation is in the present.

The solution can't be to "just do it" if it's something she is going to resent herself. I can't bring this up in the context of "you did this for him, so you have to do it for me" because that is just using guilt to get what I want. I can't send her articles or lecture her on how she has to work with me to find a way to make it mutualy enjoyable because that is a DJ.

Ok now I'm rambling and I need to get some work done so I will stop.

Always keep in mind that the addiction and "thrill" of the adultery is going to feel different from the way the love in a marriage feels. That's why she could so easily have sex with OM. She was on a high. And now she's in withdrawal and having to deal with "normal" life.

Kind of like someone having been on heroine and now they need to live without it. Life will seem empty without it at first, and then they will learn to live (hopefully) a fruitful and wonderful life on their own, without the high of the heroine. Does this make sense?

Is it possible you could withdraw the issue of SF for the time being? Or be content with less than you actually desire? Is she willing to engage in SF with you once or twice a week?

Continue depositing love units by being a wonderful complimentary husband. And absolutely NO love busters. I know that seems unfair, but the alternative is constant frustration for you. So just take it off the table for now. Do what you did in the beginning to win her love.

You had mentioned in a post that you two often have a couple of hours at home after your child goes to bed and what ideas could be used for that time that could count for UA time and be enjoyable. We have a lot of board games, mostly "Euro" games. They are very engaging and my H loves playing them with me. I like them a lot, too, and we can talk and laugh while playing. When we want something easy, we play cribbage or rummy.

You can create a time frame in your mind to reassess the situation and to determine what you can live with if things don't turn around.

You will always have access to the Harleys now that you have been on their radio show, so you can try giving them a call back to see how to proceed.

Maybe I should just take the issue off the table. It seems to be at the core of what is most painful for me though.

I expressed to my W this afternoon at lunch that I felt like I was driving the recovery bus. She says "I know that's very frustrating for you. Why don't you quit doing it?" I said "Because the bus doesn't move forward unless someone is driving it."

That "why don't you quit doing it" thing is sticking in my mind though.

We really do understand how difficult this is for you. When a wife is wayward, Dr. Harley often says the H must lead the recovery. He says that very often a WW is not remorseful. So, you're right, if you don't lead the recovery, your marriage will likely limp along in a crippled state...like most marriages do following adultery.

Jon and Sue (from SAA) took a long time to recover and it took a lot of patience and effort. Sue didn't break off her relationship with her OM; he broke it off with her, so Jon felt like a last resort for his WW. She wasn't remorseful either. She felt like the whole affair was his fault.

Since you two have children together, it makes a lot of sense to do your best to keep on doing what you are doing -- leading this marriage to restoration.

People advised me here that if the marriage was not better than ever in two years, I should reconsider my choice. That's a good time frame, don't you agree? If you end up with a marriage that's restored, it will have been worth your effort and the two years.

If your marriage does not recover, you will have given this your all-out efforts.

It's not a bad idea to remove SF from the table, just for now. When your wife is in love with you, she will want to meet that need for you. Are you doing your best to be the "president of her fan club?"

And it sounds so dang easy, doesn't? And tempting? But I'll tell you that once you withdraw, then she will withdraw and it is so much harder to get that bus going again.

Just keep doing what you are doing. Concentrate on building that romantic love.

And you have to try to let go of what she said to him and what she did with him. I know it's not easy and I still struggle. But when I start down that road, I tell myself "stop torturing yourself" and I think of something else.

I hate to tell you, friend, but this is closeted disrespect on your part. If you feel it, don't say it.

Instead:
Talk factually to your wife about love busters she commits and how they make you feel.
Talk factually to your wife about what things she could do that would really meet your emotional needs.
Find out ways to make bucketloads of love bank deposits WITHOUT SACRIFICING.

If you haven't gathered this already, Dr H has high expectations of men on this programme. If they have withdrawn and reluctant wives, he expects men to use their emotional strength and energy for a long time to turn their wives around. He is tough on men and he does not accept that they should give up easily. Men can go for a long time without getting their emotional needs met, and giving all they've got to meet their wives' ENs. They can do this and they should do this if they want to recover their marriages.

I'll bet you could train in a gym and build up big muscles and strength. I'll bet you could bear physical pain in a fight. I'll bet you can life heavy furniture and break rocks. You've got strength, and the strength you already display can be developed even further. Stop giving up in this endurance exercise until you reach the point where you collapse from exhaustion. You are far from that point now; you are just discouraged.

If you want to leave now you can, but if you are going to stay don't withdraw from the training. In this programme, as a man you have to work hard for a long time. Get on with it.

Dr H has high expectations of men on this programme. If they have withdrawn and reluctant wives, he expects men to use their emotional strength and energy for a long time to turn their wives around. He is tough on men and he does not accept that they should give up easily. Men can go for a long time without getting their emotional needs met, and giving all they've got to meet their wives' ENs. They can do this and they should do this if they want to recover their marriages .

TFT, Stop imagining that FC is going to have an epiphany and revert to the loving, affectionate spouse you might have believed she was at one time. Her self-centered and dismissive persona is clearly too well entrenched to be overcome, in the limited time you have, given your already depleted $LB and the rate at which you must expend it, to have you still be there when she wises up.

Your Plan A is intended at this juncture to be the equivalent of a jet aircraft in distress dumping fuel before trying a difficult end to its flight. You must reorient yourself to the "No Expectations" mode that you've failed - spectacularly, btw - to maintain previously, while performing every act possible to satisfy her ENs. All of this would be in an effort to position yourself emotionally when you realize intellectually that, basically, she's not worth any additional effort, that you did everything you could, as long as you could, and can dispose of her without regrets.

OK thanks for pointing this out. I apologized when I got home.


#2 is our homework for this week anyway. I'll get to work on this.

I'm going to try to let it go. I'm imagining Pep standing on top of her mountain and throwing rocks. (From the resentment thread)

I understand the message.

I agree I have failed on the "No Expectations". Of course to me that sounds like "don't be optimistic" which seems counter productive.

And OK I'll bite. Why do you keep calling me TFT?

Exactly! Well said, NG.

OK, so what does a plan A look like for a guy who's wife is not currently wayward?

What's the carrot?

What's the stick?

FTF,

That wasn't really my point. I already KNOW what happened because it is in her own words in the emails she wrote

I think my point about the polygraph is more that WW never told you, she sounds like she shrugs and wants to move on, she just admits only to what you know.

Has she ever given you a self-emptying, bare all confession?

And while your WW is not wayward she is not honest and open either.

God Bless
Gamma

It's pretty much the same. Concentrate on being the best dang husband you can be. Meet her needs, rid yourself of your lovebusters and follow the policies.

The stick is telling her how you feel if she doesn't do the same. Using "I would love it if..." statements and "I feel X, when you Y". If she continues not making changes, she will be left with an unhappy husband who did all he could.

Dr. Harley recommends separation rather than continuing in an unhappy marriage (did you listen to today's show? He talks about it on there.) But continue Plan A as long as you can. A general timeline I have seen here is 2 years past d-day. That may be different for BH, I don't know.

~RQ

How is this relevant?

You are not in Plan A. You are in Recovery.

I was going to say the same.

Well, there are similarities between plan a and recovery with a reluctant spouse.

Why do you keep calling me TFT?

Typing dyslexia! Sorry, FTF!

You are not in Plan A. You are in Recovery.

There being no firmly defined threshold between those two stages, only empirical data and general indicators, we can debate this for days to no end. I would point out, however, that the reference you make to Dr. Harley's advice would more accurately apply to a BH attempting to entice a still-foggy WW back to the marriage than a co-equal pair jointly attempting to repair and reconnect their union.

And as for this specific couple, after carefully reading FC's glib and smug postings, in what element do you detect her being "in the marriage"? You know, "for better or worse, yada, yada, yada....." Yes, she might not be actively (or provably) drooling over some OM, but declaring victory in her emotional attachment, even to the idea, if not the actuality, of infidelity, seems waaaaaaay premature, IMVHO.

In Recovery, the focus is on UA time and rebuilding the romantic relationship. Dr H does not urge a BW to keep going for many months if her H is in this withdrawn state, but he does urge a BH to do so, if he wants to work on the marriage. When I post to you, I try only to convey the kind of advice that I have seen Dr H convey to other people in similar situations. I try to avoid injecting my own take on your situation.

You did not respond directly to my post and it might be that my advice isn't acceptable to you, so I will finish here with a couple of posts that Dr H made, in the private forum, to a BH struggling with a very withdrawn wife. The two responses were made six months apart.

The wife was open about still being in love with OM and still waiting for him to leave his wife and come for her. Dr Harley's advice centred on removing all triggers from the wife's environment, not talking about the affair and creating a romantic marriage by focusing on enjoyable UA time.


Best of luck, FTF.

SC, If I thought your advice wasn't acceptable to me, I would respond and tell you so. I just didn't think it needed a reply since it was mostly a statement of fact. I thought what you suggested was right. Hard to do for long periods, but probably right.

Mostly this thread keeps me driving the bus instead of just getting off and taking a cab.

Did you read carefully the two responses from Dr H that I posted above? Do you understand what is required of you?

I'd have confidence that you were working on these things if you did not come here so often to post about the lack of improvement.

The solution to the lack of progress is to focus on getting UA time. Make it your goal and something that you work towards daily, to achieve the weekly total. Don't forget that time spent at home is not a contribution unless it involves SF.

Your wife doesn't want to work on creating UA time so you must create it and make it enjoyable. Talk to her about the schedule. Arrange babysitters. Plan an enjoyable experience, including SF at the end of it.

You can give up anytime you've had enough, just do this properly until and unless you DO give up.

Carrot:
Concrete acts of care.
Enjoyable conversations.
Recreational activities together.
Family activities together if you have children.
Symbolic acts of care (affection).
Find out ways to make bucketloads of love bank deposits WITHOUT SACRIFICING.

Stick:
Talk factually to your wife about love busters she commits and how they make you feel.
Talk factually to your wife about what things she could do that would really meet your emotional needs.

Well said, Mark os.

FTF, dig through my posting history. See what I have posted to other men. There may be some good things you can use, and good radio shows to listen to.