Anger over a perceived lack of empathy and not having the proper perspective.

But through training, I realize that is a DJ and I need to learn new habits. So I try to DO react instead in a way that would develop a new habit and in time a better emotional reaction. That's a lot of what this program is about. It's about taking you natural destructive habits and replacing them with new, constructive ones is it not? Of course the end goal of doing this is self serving to some extent.

From what you are saying here, I think you understand very well.

Most of us react pretty strongly when our spouse does not seem to feel empathy for us. (I'd say I see this more in women, but a number of us men have it as well!) The trick is to not respond with demands, disrespect, or anger. And the truth is, our spouse really can't read our minds - thus their empathy will never be 100%. BUT, through following the rules here to establish new habits, they will treat us in a more empathetic way.

And you are right that this is self-seeking - and that is okay! Marriage is about two people. Dr. Harley even goes so far as to say that selfishness is not a problem in marriage. Your Taker is not a bad thing at all. What is a problem is taking and gaining at one's spouses expense.

Anger (contained) is not a DJ. (Anger released or displayed is certainly an AO.) Anger can result from many situations, but most often in the recognition of the disparity between what IS, and what SHOULD BE. ("I'm angry at that driver for cutting me off, as I should have had a clear path before me!")

Sooooo, here is where "No Expectations" can help. Eliminate all evidence of "should be" from your observation of FC's behavior and attitude. From her you should expect neither empathy nor "favorable" perspective. ("Proper" actually being a DJ!) Your only task is supplying ENs to (at?) her.

A poor Plan A will not impress FC, and will frustrate you. Kinda where you are right now.....

I subscribed to the radio show archives. Now I have Dr Harley and Joyce to motivate me at the click of a button.

Any suggestions on what kind of shows I should be concentrating on? I started in on the SF category, but then felt like maybe that was concentrating on MY needs. Maybe I should be listening more to shows about HER needs. Or maybe something else entirely?

FTF, I would go for a mix. You really never know when you might hear something that will help you, even if it's not addressed to people in your marital situation, even if it's not addressed to your own gender! For example, I think I learned a lot from what Dr. Harley says to women as it helped me to understand how my actions affect my wife emotionally (i.e., generated empathy). I also learned a lot from what Dr. Harley said to wayward husbands, even though I was never personally in that situation.

I would say pursue whatever shows seem interesting to you, but also grab some random shows, because you might get something helpful.

I've been listening a lot. I just got through listening to yet another segment about getting the 15 hours of UA in and how that is primarily for the W's benefit. In general a woman needs that time to get her needs met.

But I keep thinking to myself "Why doesn't MY W want that?" I mean here I am, willing to give just about anything and it feels like she thinks she is doing me a favor by agreeing to spend time doing things with a tilt toward what she likes.

Makes little sense to me. Is she that different from the norm or something?

That is exactly how Prisca was for most of the time we were working the program. I can only say that I'm pretty sure it means Withdrawal: to some extent, she doesn't want her needs met.

But withdrawal is a very lonely place. It doesn't last because eventually she feels lonely and wants her needs met. That's why there needs to be a ready supply of time together that she LIKES so that you can make those deposits so that she will stay out Withdrawal.

Warning: moving from Withdrawal to Intimacy involves moving through Conflict.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html

Would she say that those 15 hours of the week are the most enjoyable hours of her week? Have you found some fun things you can both enjoy yet?

Dr. Harley said that her need for FC was quite high, and that she fully enjoys the time you and she spend together with your children. Those hours of FC when you are with her and you are interacting with your children will deposit love units.

Are those 15 hours completely without demands or other love busters?

I don't know markos. I know the theory, but I think she would be a whole lot happier just leading an independent life. The only thing making her lonely is my insistence that we spend our RC time together.

The only things I hear her complaining about are not having friends to go out with and not having activities she can do herself. I don't hear anything about "my husband doesn't spend enough time with me" or my husband is never affectionate with me" or "my husband doesn't talk to me enough".

I insist that we do things she will find fun. This is the advice I was given by Dr H.

I spend lot's of FC time. Every evening, at lunch every day, every weekend we get out with the children. Very few times does this not happen. It's part of our schedule.

I personally believe I have eliminated all of my LBs. Each week, we review and she can never come up with any that she remembers me committing that week. Well, I shouldn't say never, but I can say it goes for weeks, and it's not big ones. Nobody is perfect.

Don't fall into the trap of excusing any lovebusters. Nobody is perfect, but anybody can eliminate lovebusters. The goal is not to reduce them, but eliminate them. And it is possible.

A few weeks between lovebusters is progress, but it's not the end goal. Don't stop there. They will still hinder your recovery.

When a woman is in withdrawal, she doesn't care about these things. You will not hear her complaining about them.

But I keep thinking to myself "Why doesn't MY W want that?"

No Expectations.

it feels like she thinks she is doing me a favor by agreeing to spend time doing things

NO EXPECTATIONS!

Makes little sense to me.

NO FRICKIN' EXPECTATIONS!

If you're not going to execute Plan A correctly, admit it, and save yourself a whole passel of hurt!

Or, better yet, read GJM's thread (the best Plan A since I've been here), and take inspiration. He Plan A'd right until the gavel came down on his divorce - never once whining "But what about me.....?"

But thats BS and you know it. Expectations = hope. You might as well be saying "There is no hope, but do it anyway"

You're not in Plan A. You should be in recovery.

No expectations? That would really suck!

I don't think that's actually Marriage Builders - I think that's forum folklore. Some of our received forum folklore is quite commendable, but I remember being really discouraged to hear this one.

Dr. Harley is very PRO-expectations in marriage. He's PRO-communicating-expectations in marriage. In a respectful, non-lovebusting way, of course.

In fact, I saw him just yesterday on the private forum telling someone it was just fine to tell one's spouse what one expects in marriage.

Of course, if you're using the word "expect" like I talk to my kids ("I expect you to clean your rooms - now!") that's a demand, and not what he's talking about.

But, with the plan here for recovery, one can expect that one's needs will be met in a recovered marriage, and know that if that's not happening, they need to get help.

Plan A is not just for A recovery: When to call it quits

My point is that you aren't in Plan A because there is no active affair, correct? You two should be working on recovery.

When to Call it Quits is talking to a wife with a neglectful husband.

Forum folklore? Really? How about this, my friend, from "What is Plan A and Plan B?"

In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed
spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet,
while the lover meets emotional needs that the betrayed
spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is
excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the
lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of
being loved and cared for by two people, with no real
motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a
wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to
avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met
by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a
reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Where this is somewhat "unaligned" is that supposedly FC is not in contact with POSOM. Her choice is between "FTF" and "No FTF", which should make the contest easier to "win". (BTW: This was precisely GJM's situation, as well, as contact between WW and POSOM was prevented by military order.) Regardless, though, on the radio Dr. Harley urged you to devote your efforts to satisfying FC's ENs as long as you can. Whining about not seeing results to us here is inevitably going to be reflected in what FC is observing at her end. Hey! Plan A is nothing if not "excruciatingly painful"!

Shall I now offer a disquieting thought? How certain are you that her dominant EN is FC time? I know that's what she recently said, but the possibility exists that that could be a mask put up. Look for evidence pre-A. Did she arrange family outings/vacations/gatherings? Did she clamor to attend extended-family events? Did she create photo-records (scrapbooks?) of family trips, parties?

If these records exist, find some way to review them with her.

What does


have to do with this situation?