Hi FTF;

Deborah and LongWay are on to something.... I just love "courting" behaviour when it is NOT an obvious entree to sex.

Examples;

When passing her in the hall, take her hand and do a few seconds of waltz... Then just smile and keep on your way.

Walk across the room, pick up her hand, kiss the palm gently, then keep on your way.

Catch her eye, smile, then drop your gaze and keep on your way.

Serve her tea or coffee with a little biscuit, no reason, then walk away...

Send her a text that says, "just remembering the last time we kissed...Wow!"

Put a sweet little love note in her briefcase.


The key here... Make the gesture...then drop the expectation part.
Romance... NOT lecherous stalker... NOT needy loser ... That's your mantra.

Have fun!

Can I say something that bothers me about this program?

There seems to be a danger of causing the man to turn into mush in order to 'win' the woman over, when in reality, biologically and psychologically speaking - dating back to caveman days (i.e., it's in their DNA) - women NEED their men to be strong, confident, and take charge. The more a man bends to try to keep a woman, it seems, the harder she tries to squirm out of his grasp.

Your wife screwing some a-hole on side is "mush"-making, shall we say?

A dude fighting for his marriage and family is completely manly and thats the way I look at it.

If she chooses a slimeball who is using her for her tookas, thats her fault and that in no way is a reflection on you.

Ive been here for while and my observation is nothing makes you look stronger and manly than using the techniques here to salvage your marriage.

FTF,

Neither Dr. Harley nor the posters on your thread are recommending that you, as a betrayed husband, should turn into mush and bend over backward in order to win the heart of your spouse. That's not how you won her heart in the first place, was it?

Yes, a man should be strong, confident, and take charge, AND treat his wife as if she is his treasure, with kindness and sweet words, signs of his affection, and no love busters.

That's not being weak. That's being strong and showing love.

I guess I have a lot to learn about maintaining this balance between strong and confident and winning her back. Those two things seem to be so at odds with one another. I'll be honest, just saying "winning her back" makes me cringe. Shouldn't she be winning me back?

Nah. She should be concentrating on being worth keeping.


Men do carry a lot of weight in this program, FTF. It really isn't some new-age, feminist-theory type of program. Dr. Harley full acknowledges the differences between men and women physically, emotionally, and psychologically.

As men, we are simply built do endure more.


And, you aren't winning her back from another man. You are winning her back from a state of withdrawal.

Have you read the book Surviving an Affair?
The case study, Jon and Sue....
Sue never tried to win Jon back.

Most wayward wives never show remorse.
I agree it can seem insane to want to try to win back a cheating woman.

That why you need to really ask yourself if you're willing to do it. Because Harley explains on the radio show that Recovery is TOUGH.
Logically, it is best to reconcile if possible if there are kids.

My marriage ended in divorce. My wife cheated a little over a year ago and I can honestly say I feel better and the kids are better off since she left. So life does go on.

Some people are on here for years, spying on their cheating spouses and always worrying.

Oh and if you win her back she will ARGUE with you. First she will be depressed because of breaking up with her affair partner. So you have To wipe her tears over her breakup. Then after depression lifts she will go from the withdrawl stage of marriage to conflict. That means constant arguing and love busters directed at you!

Then if you plan a enough you will enter into intimacy stage. But that will only last if you follow the recovery plan to exact details with no deviation. If you deviate you will fail! And she needs to commit to the plan too!

So yeah I understand your frustration. I'm glad I'm not in your shoes anymore

I have read SAA. Just got done with it actually.

My W definately went through depression. I think a lot of that was due to her losing her job as well. It's been a year now, so that has gone away.

The only real arguing we have done over the past year has been about things I wanted her to give up due to the A. Friends from work, guy friends, her job, etc.

And there has been the complaining from me about the sex and the AO and DJ that arose from my pain over the whole thing.

But that's it really. My W has never been one to argue. She is very conflict avoidant. She's never told me I couldn't do X or Y or complained about much of anything.

I do believe she has major regret over the A. I know she wishes it had never happened. But it's hard to tell if that is true remorse about hurting me or if it's more to do with all of the consequences.

Yes, it takes a very strong and brave person to work on recovery with a wayward. spouse.

If we didn't have children, I'd be gone. I know people say don't stay just for the kids, been that's been my primary motivator.

I wouldn't do it again though. Second strike and I won't even try to stay together.

I guess I've gotten to the point where I figure if I'm going to stay, then we need to try to make it as good as it can be. That's why I'm giving this program a shot.

Same here, FTF. Just gotta keep moving forward...

There is a difference between using the kids as motivation to repair the damage. Then just staying for the kids.

Exactly! Kids are a huge motivator.

That's a good point. I was just feeling low yesterday. Today I am feeling better though. My wife printed out the ENQ for both of us while I was at work yesterday and we started filling them out last night!

I think she got to that part in SAA. I'm encouraged that she is reading it and wanting to do some of the exercises.

Good. Let us know how it goes.

OK here are the initial results. I need some help interpreting these.

She lists her ENs this way:

1. Intimate Conversation
2. Family Commitment
3. Admiration
4. Financial Support
5. Recreational Companionship
6. Affection
7. Physical Attractiveness
8. Sexual Fulfillment
9. Honesty and Openness
10. Domestic Support

But I'm a little confused.

Under IC, her number 1, she evaluates me as a 1 on a scale of -3 to 3, yet answers "yes" to "My spouse talks to me as often as I need" and "I like the way my spouse talks to me". I asked her about this and she says we have nothing in common to talk about. OK, I realize that may be a problem at first, but I'm wondering if this is a sign she is withdrawn?

Under FC, her number two, she lists it as a moderate need (3 out of 6), says she is neither satisfied nor dissatisfied with me (0 of -3 to 3), yet answers "yes" to "My spouse commits enough time to the family" and "I like the way my spouse spends time with the family".

Under Admiration, her # 3, she says it's a high need (a 5 out of 6), gives me a rating of -2 on a scale of -3 to 3 and marks "no" for "My spuse gives me all the admiration I need" and "No" to "I like the way my spouse admires me". She suggests 1 times a day to admire her and to "tell her how awesome she is".

For FS, her # 4, she lists it as a high need (5 of 6), ranks me as a -1 out of -3 to 3, and provides no feedback yet on that issue. My suspicion is that she wishes I were more successful, but feels bad about wanting this.

For RC, her number 5, she lists it as a 5 out of 6 need and ranks me as a -2. Marks "No" for "My spouse joins me in recreational activities as often as I need" and "No" for "I like the way my spouse joins me in recreational activities". She does list some activity suggestions like cooking together, home improvement, and dancing.

Sounds like you don't understand her needs. Correct? This would be normal at this point, BTW!


Steve Harley recommended we have a meeting to discuss our ENQ answers. The purpose is you are a reporter on a fact-finding mission, interviewing your spouse to determine what they mean by their answers.

Keep it light and friendly. Your goal is to begin to devise a plan to be an expert at meeting your spouse's EN's. Start with one of you reading your answer, then discuss. You ask things like, "would you like it if I held your hand more often? How often?" Do not get defensive.

Then the other spouse reads their answer and you discuss.

This should take about 90 minutes. But stop if you find it is getting "heated" in any way. Take breaks if you need to. (We stopped, stretched, and had a hug break after every question... Made it more fun and teamwork-like.)

Posters here can give you their opinion about what your wife's ENQ answers mean, but really, she is the one who KNOWS what she means!

Good luck.

When you begin to integrate your RC, you'll have more "in common" to talk about.

Ok so we have gone over some of her answers. I gave mine too, but I'm not concentrating there right now.

I don't feel I got a lot to work with though. Conversation is listed as her #1, but her only feedback was she wanted to talk about things she wanted to talk about. And then she said she felt like she should be talking to her friends about those things. (Couponing, etc) Not sure I don't agree!

Family Commitment is her #2. No good feedback there either. Apparently she is fairly satisfied in that area. We get lots of family time.

As for sex, she is happy to not be doing it or have any pressure to do it at all. So I've backed way off and she has made no effort in that area in over a week now.

I've been concentrating on being loving and plesant whenever we are together. She seems much happier, but I guess she would be. To me is seems like she is getting what she wants out of this. A marriage with no sex, and no pressure for sex.

There is still little effort on her part to actively work the program either. Anything MB related or UA time related still has to be initiated by me. If I didn't sit us down to do it, we wouldn't even schedule UA time.

Couponing is not a topic for [/b]Intimate[b]Conversation. Just sayin'...