The problem is, RNR, you say things like this but don't have consequences for her bad behavior. Do you?

I mean...is she taking you serious? No she is not. She continues to kick you in the face and you just take it. Why?

How are you defining 'if it works now or doesn't'?

Because the stories you are telling us = Not working.

We have love busters and we have been reading it together. She just doesn't think that random messages mean anything, they were just someone making a mistake in her mind and she really doesn't care how it affects me. She said that I can change the number If want but he didn't seem happy about it because we changed it once before. Something's she does makes me think she is serious but then she suddenly gets angry when I question things that are highly suspicious and that makes me wonder.

The problem is, RNR, you say things like this but don't have consequences for her bad behavior. Do you?

WW does something (wastes $500 in casino). You object; she explodes. Issue gets dropped.

WW does something (refuses to drop i-phone). You object; she explodes. Issue gets dropped.

WW does something (obviously opens secret e-mail). You object; she explodes. Issue gets dropped.

WW does something (re-initiates facebook). You object; she explodes. Issue gets dropped.

WW does something (refuses to change phone number). You object; she explodes. Issue gets dropped.

How'm I doing? Are you seeing the bare-butt-naked ROOT of your problem?

STOP BEING SO FRICKIN' TERRIFIED OF NOT BEING MARRIED TO HER! As long as she knows there is NOTHING she can do to cause you to bring either hammer down on her (Plan B or Plan D), she will do whatever her lack-of-self-control urges her to do.

"Consequences for bad behavior"? Punishment for bad behavior is not a marriage builders concept. As Gandhi said, "An eye for an eye makes everyone blind." If one spouse makes a love bank withdrawal (violates the rules), the correct response is not to make additional love bank withdrawals in response (violate the rules / retaliate). Dr. Harley is very clear that if one spouse violates the rules, you STAY CALM and don't violate the rules yourself.

To summarize your post:

mrs_cen violates the POJA (impulse problem - bad)
RNR objects (complaint - good!!)
mrs_cen explodes (love buster - angry outburst - bad)
issue dropped (GOOD - FIGHT STOPPED!!! THIS IS CORRECT)
At this point, mrs_cen has the choice to start acting on RNR's complaints, getting reinforcement each time that she needs to start considering RNR's feelings in her decisions (i.e., following the POJA)

This couple should be exchanging Love Busters worksheets, not enacting consequences on each other! This is exactly how the program works. We should be encouraging them to follow it so they can STOP FIGHTING.

Yes, absolutely. Dr. Harley would encourage them to stop fighting. But, it really doesn't sound to me like they are fighting though.

Mrs. Cen is just doing what she wants...and then telling RNR that his concerns are ridiculous. RNR then just drops the subject and she continues to LB all over the place.
She is being extremely disrespectful. That needs to stop today.

Dr. Harley does not condone a M at any cost.

Especially in situations where a spouse does not take their H or W's feelings into consideration, having IB and LB'ing. Which is what is going on here.

EP's are not being followed. What that means to me is that absolutely there are consequences for bad behavior. No question.

Separation or D would be the natural consequences for Mrs. Cen CHOSING to ignore EP's and RNR's feelings. It is within RNR's MB rights to say 'hey, here is what works for me to stay in this M. If you can agree, then great! Lets R, if not then I cannot continue'

Sounds perfectly fair to me.

This is exactly where I am at. I love her but I don't know where I stand with my wife anymore.

Realistically, it is not going to stop today, which is why Dr. Harley has a procedure for couples to use to coach each other through stopping it. We should be teaching them to use the procedure.


That is correct, and if RNR wants a divorce, a divorce is easy to obtain. If he wants to keep his marriage, though, consequences and demands and unrealistic expectations are not going to accomplish that.

A lesson I learned from the vets (took me too long to learn as well; don't make that mistake):


STOP BEING SO TERRIFIED OF NOT BEING MARRIED TO HER.



You don't have a marriage anyway while she is engaged in an affair.

Once you accept this premise, and you will if you want to save her and your marriage, then you can apply MB principles effectively.


STOP BEING SO TERRIFIED OF NOT BEING MARRIED TO HER.

RNR, have you guys read anything at all about what Dr. Harley says to do about love busters? You guys need to be exchanging a weekly written worksheet listing the instances of demands, disrespect, anger, independent behavior, and dishonesty.

The problem is that when mrs_cen is thinking clearly, she will want to fix your marriage with you, but when she is thinking emotionally, she will want to do whatever she wants, at your expense. She will need to be looking at those worksheets, alone, while clear headed, to start understanding the changes she needs to make. It is going to take some time.

If you love your wife and want to stay married to her, you guys are going to have to start following the procedure to get rid of the love busters, or she is going to drive you nuts.

A lesson I learned from Dr. Harley's trained professional marriage coaches:

USE THE WORKSHEETS.

I called over and over again when Prisca did this kind of stuff to me.

The answer every time: use the worksheets.

If you want to be married to her, you need to start doing this stuff.

RNR, why don't you guys consider Dr. Harley's online program, where one of his coaches will be assigned to you to help the two of you start following the Marriage Builders principles? Kim was assigned to us and was fantastic (and fantastically patient); Dr. Harley's other coach is Sandy and I have heard rave reviews about her as well. You also get access to Dr. Harley himself on his private board on this forum.

Since these things keep happening, one might conclude that you need to try professional help to get your message through.

I think we may have to try this.

That would be awesome. Remove the word "may" and maybe make it a boundary?

What's great about the program is it's reciprocal. You are both working on your own side of the fence fixing your own issues working TOGETHER to repair your marriage and rebuild a baseline love and respect for one another. The program isn't punishment or a consequence...rather it's what successful happy couples do naturally and what we all should have been doing all along.


Backtracking a bit...like Marcos...I get uncomfortable with this notion of having to "man up" and enforce consequences. The tough guy thing doesn't work IMO. I never wanted to be my wife's caretaker nor her warden. I also don't consider her my property. She's not my dog on a choker. But I had boundaries and she knew eventually I wasn't gonna stick around for her abuse and/or indifference forever. My boundary was simply that I refused to remain in a loveless marriage indefinitely.


Your marriage is a savable.


In the meantime, here is link to one of my favorite MB discussions regarding the often difficult to define term "boundaries" in contrast with manipulation and control.


BOUNDARIES VS. MANIPULATION/CONTROL - An Open Discussion

Good link. Good discussion.


We all have our own personal perspectives that can nicely fit into what MB teaches. RNR has to figure out what is acceptable and what is not acceptable to stay married.


However you slice it up, she is LB'ing all over the place. He is supposed to just complain and drop it? She knows she can do whatever the heck she wants to do with no ramifications. She simply doesn't care.


I love my W but no way would I stay married to her if she was to break any EP's. I will file for D that day.

I am not afraid to not be married to her.


Demand? Respectful request? Consequence?


Put into any category you want. What I do know is that if she would CHOOSE to make a decision to break EP then it would crush me AGAIN. It would have been done with full knowledge of how much it would hurt me. I refuse to remain married to her (especially after what happened) if she doesn't fulfill her side of the deal. In the final analysis, this would completely drain her LB account with me.

I do not have any desire to control/manipulate my W. None. Quite the opposite. What I do have a desire is to NOT go through the most painful experience of my life again.


How about you RNR? Where do you stand?

What my coach in the online program told me to do was to complain, and then let go and let it be Prisca's decision whether to address my complaints or not.

That was extremely hard for me.

And it took a long time for Prisca to address several of my complaints. And it was extremely painful during that time.

But it worked.

Most all of this in my mind comes down a great deal to respect.


RNR - Does mrs. cen respect you? Are you respectable?


If no, why?

If yes, why?

Knowing what you know now, if you were to go back in time, would you do it the exact same way? Are there things that you could have done differently to avoid some of the extreme pain?


ETA:What were the nature of your complaints? having a complaint about putting the toilet seat down is quite different than breaking EP's.

Is that something Mrs_cen would be open to?

I get the impression she doesn't whole-heartedly agree with everything that's recommended by Dr Harley. She�s putting her twist on how she thinks the M should operate go forward. She sounds a little close minded based on your information.

If she's not fully on board with the entire set of concepts, and never will be, you will have a tough time working it out. MB is an all inclusive. You either jump in with both feet and use all the principles or you'll simply experience more harm.

The behaviors you both exhibited in the past have gotten you where you are today. And unless you both clean house your M will continue to flounder.


I would like to see us backtrack a little on this comment about Plan B. I think it�s important RNR that you understand what Plan B means and how it is a very valid prerequisite, fits in nicely, with a plan to end the M.

It appears you continue to experience LBs from her. At some point these may become too much to bear and you�ll do well to hear of some options. You can make a more logical decision and not react to the situation.

Oh, man, knowing what I know now, I would have been much more respectful in my complaints. I would have stuck to the worksheets. I would have been much more patient, and much more willing to let go and not freak out when Prisca did not appear to immediately accept my complaints and be willing to address them. She was pretty nasty at times (at one point even letting my worksheet fall to the ground when I tried to hand it to her).

The biggest complaint was disrespect. Independent behavior was also a big thing. EPs tended to be a problem very early on, but if you review our history, you find that we were here for a year before the emotional affair even happened, so in that respect we don't exactly fit the normal timeline.

I get the impression that when she is thinking rationally and unemotionally, mrs_cen very much wants to see most or all of the Marriage Builders recommendations put into practice. But because she is impulsive, she often is thinking only emotionally and only about the moment instead of the effects her actions are going to have on her husband.

Marriage Builders is a training program to fix that!

Oh, and regarding RNR's and mrs_cen's posts, one of the things we have noticed is that both of them are prone to not report everything that the other would report. Most people are like that to some extent, but for this couple it really pays to remember that you are usually not hearing all of the story.