Okay. I'm probably not the typical demographic of poster on this site, because I'm the cheater. I'm the hurter, and I'm the destroyer of my marriage.

If I can give a brief history: my wife and I were married in our early 20s. We've been married 16 years now. We moved from the US to an overseas location (a very, very long way from home) about 4 years ago. We've got two children (the oldest is 3 years, the other a few weeks shy of a year), who were both born here.

After we were married about 8 years, I began having sexual conversations with someone (presumably a female, but who really knows on the Internet). She sent me nude photos. My wife discovered this "relationship" and demanded we see a counsellor and that I see our priest. Our priest gave me Dr. Harley's book and we followed the plans (the counsellor was of no help at all, really), and after several months of rebuilding, we managed to patch things together and make it work. We moved to our overseas location about 4 years after this incident.

Fast forward to 2012. After being overseas and having our first child, I began to feel sorry for myself and that I was essentially a babysitter and chauffeur. But I never told my wife my feelings, which is where I guess the problem started. I began staying up late and gaming, but inevitably found another person with whom I would have sexual conversations. No photos were exchanged this time - only words. But my wife found out again, and she found out the night after we had our second child and we were still in the hospital. I was so involved in this conversation and I was so selfish that I completely let my wife down when she was most vulnerable, and when she needed me most.

That's been nearly a year. We are still living together. We still say "I love you," (well, I do, and for the most part she responds, but there are times she doesn't, and I know why and I can't blame her) we still do things together when we can, and we still live in the same house and sleep in the same bed. But that's the extent of our relationship. I guess we're "staying together for the kids" at the moment. We've had a few heated discussions about consequences, my choices, and our future, and she said she'll never trust me again.

I'm not sure what to do or where to go. I'm a stay at home dad, so I'm caring for both kids while she is at work. Obviously, divorcing in our location and proceeding with the corollary issues isn't as easy for us as it is if we were in the US, or she may have already done it. She's told me she can't "be with [sexually]" someone she can't trust, and it's been over 17 months since we've been intimate. That's not an issue at all - I'd give it up entirely if it meant having her trust again.

The one bit of seemingly helpful advice the counsellor gave me when this happened the first time was that trust can happen again - but it has to be built and earned. I did that the first time, but I don't know if it will happen again. I know that like a wound, affairs and the pain that goes with them can heal, but they will never be erased, and the scars will always remain.

I'm not sure why I'm posting this here. I'm not looking for sympathy, empathy, or attacks, but perhaps seeking out if anyone else has been in a similar situation and what happened. I love my kids with all my heart, and I love my wife too (though she thinks the words ring hollow).

I've been considering a worst case scenario and contemplating a Plan B for myself. I'm basing it on the assumption we move to the US (before or when we expect to) and she files a no-fault divorce and then seeks sole custody of the children. Her parents are both still alive, and her father recently retired (her mother is close to retirement herself). My parents are both dead, and I have very little in the way of family in the US, so from an extended family perspective, a court would likely think she is in a better position to care solely for the kids and that her parents could be there also. But I'm not going to agree to that, and not just to be a [censored]. I know none of this wouldn't have happened had it not been for my conscious, selfish actions, but I can't just willingly give my children away to her and see them on rare occasions.

I don't really have much of a Plan B, and I don't know if I'll need one, but I'm not the kind of person who just lives life as it happens to me. Is there any advice on what I should do? I've written her several letters and told her to her face that I am committed to re-building the relationship, if it (and she) can tolerate my work. I've told her I will not give up until she sues for divorce, and I haven't. But each year on our youngest child's birthday, the painful memory will inevitably return - she's already told me as much.

I just don't know what to do. I'm a selfish S.O.B. at times, but I'm not so selfish just to walk away entirely and let her deal with it all. Though she's intimated at times she would just hire a nanny to care for the kids if I weren't there. She has a very good salary and has an excellent benefits and living expenses program, so money's not an issue for her.

This is rambling, I know, and I'm sorry. Please feel free to offer advice. Please feel free to refrain from flaming. Thank you.

JD

Dr Harley would encourage you to expose your affair to your family and friends and enter Plan A

If I did this on a site like Facebook, would that be acceptable do you think? I think it would reach the most people that need to see it, but at the same time I couldn't do anything like that without making sure my wife was okay with the "public" nature of my exposure. She would feel embarrassed, and even more betrayed if she suddenly got phone calls and emails about this post if I hadn't told her about it first.

Further, I thought exposure/admission was one of the ways "pre"-Plan A to ensure the affair ends. It's been over for nearly a year, and I haven't had contact with that person or anyone else. If my wife wants it, if she sees it as a way to own up to what I've done (neither of us has told anyone else, so far as I know), I'll do it, but is this in the right stage?

Exposure is a good way to keep the wayward acountable even if the affair is over. Friends and family, like it was said.

Who was your OW? Is she married?

I don't think she was. She was a single pastry chef living in the US, so she said.

Do you have any idea of the OWs real identity? Without it, she is like a shapeless, formless boogiewoman. She hovers over the marriage and your W must feel she can't compete with a self invented fairytale. Have you given your W the entire truth of her identity and the full storyline of the A? Has she seen all the messages you exchanged? Has she seen your bank statements and phone records for that period?

How much honesty have you volunteered? Dr Harley (and most BWs like me) feel it is impossible to move on without the full truth. the amount of 'I wonder if' you do is torture.

First make sure the past truth is out, and exposed. Work with your W to expose. (It is not to end affairs, it is to make you an upright, honest and accountable man who does not hide weasley actions)

Then make the future truth safe. You should present your wife with extraordinary precautions to make another A impossible.

She should have access to all and any passwords. Indeed she should be able to see all and any part of your life.

I do hope you are not still going online, in places where she cannot view what is going on. That will be horrible for her.

Do not mourn the death of blind trust. Blind trust is what created this mess. Dr Harley says it is not a lack of trust, but a lack of protection that damages marriages.

When you make your life an open book, your W will be able to SEE and she will then have an informed trust of you.

You should be meeting her needs like crazy too.

So:

1) Full truth of past and complete exposure to your loved ones with your BW. This should also involve exposure of OW. Also offer a polygraph to make sure your BW can believe you.
2) Put current and future protections in place - research EPs.
3) Rebuild romantic love by meeting her ENs.

1) Full truth of past and complete exposure to your loved ones with your BW. This should also involve exposure of OW. Also offer a polygraph to make sure your BW can believe you.
2) Put current and future protections in place - research EPs.
3) Rebuild romantic love by meeting her ENs.

Ig just saved me a whole lotta two-finger typing.

Dude, you have the GPS route to a possible recovery in those three steps. Get started.

Don't worry, you are not the only wayward spouse (WS) posting on this forum. There are both WSs and FWS's (former WSs) posting here. Some of the advise offered will even be coming to you from FWSs, so read and then act upon the guidance you are given and you will have the best possible chance of saving your marriage.

Good luck!

Writing letters is nice and promising things is nice -- but your wife needs to see some real change. And she needs to see it long term.

It sounds as though she has completely disengaged from you.
You need to draw her back.

Plan A and Plan B are not for you. Those are strategies to stop an affair and protect a betrayed spouse.

You need to focus your time and energy on the other concepts here. You need to provide "just compensation" and "extraordinary precautions" -- those will be life changes that you implement to provide your wife with some relief and a way to feel safe again.

You also need to implement some new policies in your marriage.
First of all, you need to meet your wifes emotional needs to the best of your ability. Do you know what they are?? You need to spend 20 hours a week DATING your wife. You need to implement "radical honesty" and the "policy of joint agreement"

Your marriage could benefit from the online coaching center. It would be the best investment you ever made.

Yes. It can be done but will take ages.



Yes. Plan A is to compete with an AP and draw back a wayward. Plan B is to prevent ongoing pain to the betrayed spouse from an unremorseful wayward spouse.

The plan for a WS is 'Just Compensation'. Everything you took, you pay back. And you accept the consequences. That's it.

First, thank you for your reply and offered advice.

I don't have any idea of her identity other than she is a pastry chef. Of course, that could be a lie itself. I have given my wife the truth and the full extent and storyline of the affair - it didn't last but a few weeks before she discovered it. She hasn't seen all the messages we exchanged, but that's only because it was done on my phone, and the program by default didn't archive messages. After the affair was discovered, I uninstalled the program and haven't used it since. Because the other person and I were in two different countries, and because the affair was relatively short, there were no purchases or calls made. My wife and I share two joint bank accounts, one in our home country and one in our host country, and she has full access to both. She has full access to phone records as well.





I have offered full disclosure, to the extent I can. Like I said, since there was no record of the chats/affairs, there's not much I can offer to show her at this point, especially since the affair occurred almost a year ago. I will work towards exposure, but the only obstacle I can see to exposure is that she will seem weak in the eyes of her friends and family for not having dealt more harshly with me in the immediate time after discovery. Because my wife is a proud and powerful person in her personal and professional life, she may want this kept between the two of us, but this weekend I will talk with her about exposure.





I've offered her this much, but she doesn't seem interested at the moment.



I like to game, and I use the gaming computer in our home office to do this, but never when she's home. If I'm in there when she's home, the door is wide open.



I'm working on meeting her needs. She hasn't given me many, or won't give me many, because I think she feels they can be better met by her, or that I can't meet them anymore. I'm doing my best to be sweet, considerate, thoughtful, and loving.



I will be working towards all this. Thank you.

Thank you for your advice, Lexxxy. She has pretty much withdrawn from me. We kiss nightly, just a peck on the lips. We hug throughout the day, hold hands still, but that's the jist of our physicality. I'm working on being romantic, dating her as a boyfriend again, and meeting her needs, but I am having a hard time discerning what they are. But the trick to that is that she isn't going to be very forthcoming with what they are, and I think as long as she's still in the current mindset (which is, "our only options at the moment are immediate divorce or staying together for the children in our current form of relationship"), she won't tell me what they are. I'm listening closely to things she's told me about her day, picking up on them, and acting on them. I won't go into detail about what that entails, but they are good, and she's reacting positively to them.

Regarding "just compensation" and "extraordinary precautions," I'm not sure what those are exactly. Having a legal background, I know I can't provide her with what I think the definition of just compensation is. But in the letter I referenced, I've promised to be in bed with her every night, regardless of whether it means I'm up with a crying baby 5 minutes after our lights go out (for only 30 minutes or 3 hours, both of which have happened). I've met that promise. I also promised to spend at least 1 hour with her each night doing a personal activity, such as talking about our day, cooking and eating dinner, watching our favourite show, reading, or doing a puzzle. I've met that activity, and we usually spend 2-4 hours together each evening in a variety of those activities. But I feel like we aren't making much progress with that bit.

I'll further research the policy of "radical honesty" and "policy of joint agreement," whatever those mean. Thank you again.

1 hour a day is not really meeting the mark, and tv watching doesn't count. I believe Harley calls for (20? I think the mark's been changed lately) more than the usual time per week for healthy couples (that number is about 15 I think), so at LEAST 20-25.

Puzzles and dinner together with no one else are great. This time has to be for the two of you, focused on each other with no one else (IE kids), so find things that you both like.

POJA is best summed up as only doing things you both are enthusiastic about doing.

I know one hour a day sounds paltry, but considering our schedule:

She doesn't get home (the kids and I pick her up from work) until 5:30. If we rush, we can have the kids fed by 6:15. On a good night, we have them bathed and in bed by 7. If we don't order take out, we can have a decent meal cooked and on the table by 7:30 and eaten by 8. She doesn't stay up much later than 9 during the week, so when I say our time is limited, I'm not bending the truth in my favour. I can't force her to stay up.

Is there something I'm missing here?

How much UA do you get on the weekend?

Policy of Joint Agreement
Policy of Radical Honesty

Also here.
Extraordinary Precautions

Will your BW post here?

Can't We Just Forgive and Forget

Tell us what you think?
Radio Clip
Segment #2
Segment #3

Are you gaming online? Yikes. this basically means you are getting your RC need met by strangers. RC would be one of your highest needs, and I would only let this need be met by your spouse or male friends.

Otherwise your boundaries will basically be the same as an alcoholic who hangs out in a bar with strippers. I would imagine your wife tells herself you are still up to your old tricks when she's out and this won't help her withdrawal.

Can you disable online gaming? In such a way that she knows it is now impossible for you to do?

I would also install a key logger which tracks your every movement online. Then give her access to it. Preferably do this with your phone too.

It doesn't matter if she is interested in accessing it. The point is she will know the offer means you aren't hiding anything.