If she doesn't want flowers then I would listen to her and not send them

"do you think the shrubs need mulch underneath? There's a sale at Walmart on mulch. It comes in different colors. It might look good with black mulch"

"do you want me to pick up some gloves too"

Use conversation that she is wiling to do. Build that conversation love bank balance. Build family support love bank balance with the kids.

She never said she didn't want flowers, but I doubt she cares to receive any from me right now. I picked up shears and a new garden hose from Loews. She would want the hose connected, that would give me a few minutes to chat. I normally just pick up the kiddos and take off. I'll offer assistance to help with the yard work and ask about the mulch or anything else she may wants while I'm there. On Fridays we used to do what she calls Triple F (Friday Family Fun). Perhaps I could frame our staying to help as such. I think I can figure out a few things to get her talking without being pushy.

Is there any other way you can investigate for an affair? Can you afford a PI?

I do believe I could afford a PI at this point. However, my first thought about it is...is it worth the investment when everyone she talks to who are close to her have suggested no foul play?...saying she was simply "fed up". I considered getting one of those tracking devices for the vehicle, but I don't think she physically meets with anyone during business hours. As I mentioned earlier...the only way I could see it happening is via another non-work email or text message and which would limit it to only EA if that. There was one occasion where she would mention a guy she kept running into in the parking garage at her job. Those couple of conversations keep coming to mind. I assume he works in the same building. She works in a 15-20 story bank tower housing multiple tenants...so possibilities are endless there. She talks to females a whoooole lot, but I don't think she'd go there.

Interesting that you would mention te conversations with females.
If she is bisexual and having emotional needs met by another woman she can go there.

I wouldn't hire a PI. I don't see anything productive from it.
You are on the divorce train and need to stay in plan A, perhaps for a few years to win her back if you have it in you

He needs to rule out an affair. All the Plan A in the world won't work if she's having an affair.

What is still bothering me is the way she acted about the giving you back the phone. Trust but verify even the most trustworthy person.

I just really feel that is she is done with you by her own choice then so be it. If she however is done with you because she has started something else, then this changes everything.

I don't think you will have closure if you don't know for sure.

Yes fifteenyears... the phone thing still bothers me. I think it contains her meticoulous plans and communication about her leaving. She didn't want me to know who her attorney was early on as if it wouldn't be listed on the decree. If think it's just paranoia, but I will keep my eyes peeled for more evidence.

It turns our my W didn't have the girls night out event on Saturday after all. I suspect because all attendees backed out except for one based on the evite. She rented a movie - I saw the Redbox receipt. I took the shears and waterhose to her on Friday. She was happy about it. I began cutting some of the shrubs. She joined in doing some pulling and picking up. We made small talk while doing so. She is a "talker" so though I can't put too much emphasis on the quantity I felt the quality of conversation was good. When I returned the kiddos on Sunday I spent a while there cleaning the shrubs that were cut. We had some additional family time. We talked about DD1 second birthday party coming in August. She stated she wanted to have it at her place. I agreed it would be nice(in times past I can't see myself agreeing to that). Speaking of August...our 13th wedding anniversary is Aug 19th. Every year we've been married we have taken an anniversay vacation. The thought of not doing anything this year REALLY bugs me out. I'm praying for things to turn to a point where we could at least have dinner.

The upside is that things have continued to be nice and cordial. Several members of our church (she's attended service twice in the last couple months) came to me yesterday extending prayer and encouraging me out of concern for what they "feel" is going on with our family. All stating that things will "work out" in my favor. The title of the message was "All Things Are Possible". So that is where my hope lies. We have our final Conflict Reolution and Co-Parenting class tonight. It's a joint session between the parents where we go over our family comitment plan and agreements. We wrote them out individually last session. I used a few MB principlas in writing my comitment such as no DJ, POJA, and PORH. Will see how that goes.

I have no idea if I have a few years of Plan A in me. As for being bisexual, she is not. HOWEVER, early on in the marriage we "seriously toyed" around with those ideas. The fact we did so became a stronghold for me. I thought and hinted about it often after the fact. We both later resented having gone there. I do know for a FACT, there other women do meet her emotional needs regularly. She's a woman's woman. she is on the leadership board of a distenguised professional womens' orginanization in Dallas. I've met many of the other ladies and their families and they pretty much worships the ground she walks on. She has several other "close" relationships with other women who she talks to, goes to visit, and "ministers" to often. She's always buying gifts and giving of her time and self to them....of course I grew to resent this.

We had our one on one session with the therapist last night. It was tense, awkward, refreshing, frustrating, and hopeful all at the same time. The therapist went to bat for me again in so many words, without trying to appear biased. She essentially told us my W that none of the issues that either of us brought to the table was were unresolvable. She simply had to choose to be committed and do the hard work. She said should you choose to reconcile it would take intense counseling and an allowance for mistakes. There are no perfect people or marriages. It's matter of how "YOU" show up to the party and deal with the issues. But you have to be committed. She said any communication of "hope" to me is unfair to me. That was refreshing...

The frustrating part... My W could not wrap her head around the notion of different "personalities" having a healthy thriving marriage. She has bought into this idea that our Jung INTP/ESFJ personality assesments (issued by the therapist) is final justification for our relationship being unsalvageable. Really? The therapist gave the �no..no honey� response and said. The personality type is only about your core� it�s the LEARNED BEHAVIOR�S that leds to relationships going bad. Neither of you have mental disabilities. You are very intelligent� you just need to learn a new set of skills and it can certainly work.

My wife continued to shake her head in doubt and actually said �I�m having trouble with that�. We discussed other things. I brought up our inability to converse using the �child-parent teacher conference� example from a while back. The therapist provided great clarity for us both on that issue. She says we both went into defense mode based on trigger words and our own interpretation of what both felt was being communicated. Made perfect sense as she explained it. The lady only has 35 years experience and has been married 44 years.

My hope is that my W is reflecting and considering the therapist�s statement that our issues are totally salvageable. She also plainly stated to my W that �the ball is your court�. I am becoming more and more content with where my W is mentally and emotionally. She really has a bent that people can not change....especially me. I feel as though I�ve said all I can say. I�ll just continue to show up for the fight and gently meet as many EN as I can.

Those personality assessments are usually pretty useless as far as helping a marriage!

Yup introduce your counselor to the MB concepts.

DNT, your situation is very complicated and seeing a traditional counselor is not a good idea. Counselors typically just cause couples to lovebust each other. Why don't you write to Dr Harley and get advice on how to Plan A your W through the D process. Drop the counselor.

I agree and I would have loved to drop the counselor. It was COURT ORDERED! It's called "Parallel Parenting and Conflict Resolution" and it's a 12 week course. It's tailor-made for divorced and divorcing couples. Last night was week 10 of 12. It's a group session of 5-6 couples. The information is actually very good and I like the therapist. But it's not MB by a long shot. I will write Dr. Harley. I sent an email (likely in an emotional dump) a couple months ago with no response. I will try again.

DNT
There were some technical difficulties a few months ago which resulted in some emails not getting through to the Harley's. Perhaps yours was one of those.

Have you read this?
Parallel Parenting in Plan B

Hit notify and let the MODS know when you email Dr. Harley again so they can make sure he receives your email.

Thank BrainHurts... Joyce responded and said it will be addressed on Friday most likely.

I've seen the parenting post before. I couldn't make it through reading it back then and it's not much better now as I think how my decisions, issues, will rob us both of precious moments that our children will miss as a intact family unit. I tried to read through it, but emotions begin to overwhelm me and I have to stop. It's going to take a while to wrap my brain around it all should this train continue in the direction it's headed. *eyes welling up now*

Oh the memories! Very recent memories. Just my experience here DNT, but I heard that kind of dung from my WS the entire time he was in the Fog after D-Day. My suggestion, just smile and do what I didn't do and say, "OK, well I hope you are wrong just this once." She is spewing big time Fogbabble here, so do not give it any credibility whatsoever.



In my experience, there is absolutely nothing you can say to help her, but your actions and attitude can move mountains once the AP is out of the picture or even if there is just a temporary break from the AP or from the Fog. However, you have to commit to the long haul as the Fog slows everything in the BS's life down to a miserably slow, snails pace. And as to that mountain moving, well, it is millimeter by millimeter, we are not talking football fields here.

Yes, it was.