Hello all. Frequent reader, first time poster. I have been searching high and low for a MB friendly counselor in Dallas-Ft. Worth (DFW). I have been on as caller with the Harleys a few weeks ago (W was not on the call, just email). I am following Dr. Harleys advice of seeking a 3rd party therapist if my BS from the article "How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage" It stated "if you cannot follow your own program as evidenced by your failure to complete assignments, then I suggest that you find a therapist who can help motivate you to achieve these goals you have set for yourselves." We literally just left the counselors office and I'm not so sure the therapist is on board with strictly following MB principles. The therapist stated that we could bring our tasks into the sessions but she seemed to want to supplement the MB principles with some of her own. She also suggested Al-Anon to wife to deal with pornography issues that I have dealt with in the past (I quit cold turkey months ago). I remember the Harleys stating on a call with another couple that most programs such as Al-Anon draw couples apart as opposed to together. Anyway�like many others I have suggested and promoted the online MB program and coaching by phone to no avail. So face to face it is�
On last week Dr. Harley requested that my wife complete an LBQ and return to him. I forwarded his email message to her and she has yet to do so. Reluctant..to say the least.

A little about us Me:FWH, Married 12 years, 3 children DS age 5, DD age 1, DS 18 which is BW's step son.
3 PA�s with 3 OW�s in 2003, 2 online flings in 2012 � not really EA�s
D-Day 1/25/2013

DNT, try calling around to Baptist churches in your area. They often have counseling centers that use Marriage Builders. My H and I were introduced to MB by a therapist at our local Baptist church.

What are the current issues in your marriage? What is your wife reluctant to do?

Hi MelodyLane! Thanks for your response. I will try that route. I take it that you are not in the same area as we are.
My W is in withdrawal. Understandably so, having recently disclosed the PA�s and almost EA�s. We were on the decline well before my disclosure. But, she will not read SAA with me. We struggled with finally getting through LB. She did so reluctantly and we didn�t get into the chapters on how to begin restoring romantic love. She certainly isn�t interested in getting into HNHN. She says she needs �NOTHING�. She told the counselor today that she doesn�t believe things can get better. You know�classical withdrawn statements. I am beginning to withdraw to protect myself. The relationship is in park and with the emergency brake on and only my W can release the handle in order for us to move forward.

How recently did you tell her about the affairs? And did you cut off contact with the OW? Has your marriage been affair proofed?

Does she want to stay married? Would she come here and speak to us?

The affairs were disclosed on Jan 25 this year. The PA's were one time occurences so there was no emotional investment and no further contact. All contact has been cut off with the online relationships as well. I have affair proofed our relationship as much as SAA recommends that I do as an the offender.

She has stated that she did not want to stay married. Dr. Harley stated on our call that "she isn't going anywhere". I asked her to work toward reconciliation and that we give an effort in completing the MB process. She hasn't given an enthusiastic "yes!" to my request but as recently as today during counseling she indicated that she wants things to change however she doesn't trust me. All understandable. I think she may possibly be open to posting here. I will certainly ask.

Yes; in withdrawal, your wife feels like she doesn't want her needs met, so she basically doesn't perceive them.


There actually may be a whole lot more you can do than you think. Have you read about Plan A?

Exactly what I was thinking. I thought it was rather odd not to own what has been communicated in times past as obvious emotional needs...ie, love language


Yes I have read about Plan A on the website and in SAA. I've been Plan A'ing for 1 month or so now, but haven't been preparing for Plan B. I began considering that yesterday.

Plan B is only for the betrayed spouse, NOT the wayward spouse. Plan B should NEVER be practiced with a BS.

The purpose of Plan B is to protect a BS from an abusive spouse.

Ah! I figured that was the case when I read about Plan B but wasn't sure. So essentially you are saying I can not leave simply because the BS refuses to participate no matter how long...?

So MelodyLane do you have any suggestions on how to frame the request on getting my wife to post here? Should she simply post in this thread?

What specifically have you been doing for Plan A?

DNT,

Welcome to this amazing site. I am a FWW and betrayed my spouse. I, like you found this site and really wanted him to get on the site and see the amazing information and advice I was given.

You can't however force her to get on and I found the more I pushed the more he resisted, at first.

My H never actually started his own forum but he does get on here at least once a week to check in with the stories and advice. Sometimes in our UA time we will discuss people on here.

What I did was just let him know that I was on here. Sometimes I would tell him something that I learned on here or subtly bring something up and when he asked about it I would say, MB.

I also made it a point to get on the site in front of him to spark his interest.

Your wife is very raw right now and its seems as she feels hopeless. The best thing you can do to get her on board with MB, is to SHOW her that you are practicing the main principals on this site.

Of everything I said I did above to get my H involved; I don't think he really bought into any of it, until he actually saw me applying it in our marriage.

Were you on Dr. Harley's radio show? If so, what day?

If you communicated with Dr. Harley, I would definitely follow up with him and let him know your wife wasn't willing to fill out an LBQ.

I would proceed forward with the assumption that your wife's emotional needs are likely to include conversation, affection, family commitment, and invest lots of time in these. Conversation is just about always key for restoring love to a withdrawn wife. As for affection, a withdrawn wife will usually not be open to symbolic expressions of care (i.e., cards, flowers, kisses), but may be open to more concrete expressions of care (examples: communicating when you are coming home from work, helping with the dishes, etc.) Pepperband has a good post somewhere on this site on good concrete expressions of care that a former wayward husband can focus on.

How much time do the two of you spend together alone?

How does your wife respond when you ask her on a date?

Well she won�t allow me to meet any needs other than domestic support and family commitment so I continue to that. I have always been exceptional at doing so this is nothing new. Sometimes I feel as if I should stop but I know that would be an LB. So basically I just avoid all LB�s to satisify what I can in Plan A.
I was on 2/20/2013
If she doesn�t completed this weekend I will certainly let him know. I think it should have been turned around in 24 hrs, but I dare not demand it. 
Have always done this. I am the primary care taker of the home� consider me the sacrifice in the relationship. That�s part of the reason why we are in this mess. She has been the capitulator.
Not much..maybe 4-5 hrs per week. I know we need a min of 15� 20+ sounds better.
She�s mostly reluctant. We went to the symphony a few weeks ago and enjoyed. Lately she�s stated no one has been available to sit with the kids so we haven�t gone out in a while. I need to find more options for baby sitting but she's not comfortable with just anyone of course.

Thank for that fifteenyears. That sounds like sound advice. I do feel as though she is very raw...sometimes I can sense her going in and out of anger and resentment. I won't force her to do anything from here on out if I can help it. She's become familiar with most of the MB principles upon my talking about it and reading aloud. I know she thinks even that behavoir is cohersive, but I was desperate to plant seeds somehow.

Is this your call?

Radio Clip
Segment #2

Hi BrainHurts - it was the first segment on 2/20. I have my own link to it here. DNT_2_20Call

DNT, How are things?

fifteenyears...things aren't terribly bad from my estimation. We all went to church today and had an enjoyable evening chatting making family time afterwards. There still hasn't been any undivided attention. Couldn't find a sitter to go out (movie) this weekend. She says she likes the therapist that we saw on Friday, so I we'll continue to see her with my suggection that we use MB principles.

Well ladies and gentlemen. Today she left with my two babies and left our oldest at the house. I became violently ill last night and my wife took me to the ER. I had stomach flu. She took good care of my and was very attentive. Then on this morning I noticed a large sum of money transfered from our savings to checking. Then I saw a huge check being cashed against the new big balance. I phoned the bank and even contact police to see if someone had forced my wife to withdraw cash. Nope the 911 operator was able to reach her and verified she knew of the transaction. A few minutes later movers show up at my door expecting to meet my wife at 10am. Remember... I should have been home but fell ill so I'm home the next 2 days. Long story short the wife finally comes back to "talk" and goes on to say she can't take it any more. Tired of being controlled, manipulated, and a gamut of other stuff that has occured throughout our relationship and said we need a break! I forsee a financial disaster as it takes both of our incomes to manage our home. I am missing our babies. I cook dinner for them 5-6 days a week. My oldest is very upset! What a mess.

DNT,

I just re-read your entire post and am almost 100% sure that your wife is still having an affair and is extremely foggy. Her unwillingness to truly recover,not letting you meet her needs,and so many other red flags pop out in your post.

I am no vet and no expert on all of the legal stuff but I can tell you that you need to get a lawyer ASAP. I hope you have been documenting EVERYTHING.

Also, I skimmed your post and don't recall seeing anything about a massive exposure. Did you expose? If so, how far and wide?

What you are going through is very similar to NotDoneYet. Have you read his post and some of the advice the vets are giving him? If not you need to ASAP!!

I wish I could help more but all I can say is to hang on there and keep posting, venting, and asking for help on this site.

Hopefully the wise ones will be on here shortly!

fifteenyears, his situation is not even close to Notdoneyet. This guy is a serial cheater who recently confessed all his affairs to his wife. She is entitled to leave the marriage if she so chooses. I am sorry to see she is doing it in such a underhanded way, but she has every right to leave the marriage.


Expose himself?

I feel this is partially correct. MY situation is not similiar to Notdoneyet. I am the betrayer. I had 3 ONS 10 years ago and more recently inapproppriate contact online two OW online which I later determined were not EA's as there were no expression of love for neither. Yes, I dropped a ton of bricks on my wife in disclosing all of this. Not sure if that makes me a serial cheater, but I do realize she has every right to leave the marriage if I were still being unfaithful. That has not been the case. We were working to restore and affair proof our marriage at least so I thought.

No, she has every right to leave the marriage regardless of the current state of your affairs. She was not given the option of making that choice when you had the affairs. Every person who is betrayed gets to decide if they want to stay or go. It sounds to me like she has chosen the latter. I am sorry but that is a job hazard of infidelity.

Fair enough...they say the harvest is always larger than the seed. Definitely the case here. Wish I didn't suck as a husband. Pray for my sanity

Wowza,

I really read your post wrong and I apologize for my earlier advice and connection to NDY. What I can suggest DNT, is for you to continue to clean up your side of the street with or without your wife.

Mel, is right that she has every right to leave. You howevet don't have the right to give up. Keep reading MB and working the program with no expectations. My BH left twice, and had an RA. It was so hard at the time but I knew this was the ripple affect of my actions.

fifteen thanks for the encouragement. I need every bit I can get. Last night was excruciating not seeing my babies. I will do the best I can. We were scheduled for marriage counseling today at 3pm. I'll go regardless. I need to start protecting our assets. I don't know whether to try to work our an emergency loan modification with our lender to keep our home or just let it go. I need to focus and do my best to head off what is sure to be a huge financial setback and an emotional rollercoaster not seeing my wife and children. I really thought we were on the verge of a breakthrough... I really did.

DNT, I have read through your posts and listened to the audio you linked to your radio interview with the Harleys.

Your wife is in withdrawal and is on a roller coaster of emotions from your revealing the truth about your infidelities. She wants to heal and feels her greatest chance to do this is to be separated from you.

Dr.Harley specifically advised you to:

1.) Establish and maintain Extraordinary Precautions for life, which would include having no female friendships, e.g. you wouldn't speak about personal things to any females.

Have you written out a list of EPs and promised to adhere to them? Have you demonstrated your willingness in the time since? Did your wife add any? Does she know all your passwords and where you are (before she left?)

2.) Never do anything again to hurt her.

You said you had not had an angry outburst in the past month before the call. Have you had any since? Have you been making any selfish demands, insisting on your way? Have you made any disrespectful judgments? Have you eliminated ALL independent behavior?

You said your wife feels she is being forced to do things you want to do. If she does not, you get upset and are disrespectful with her.

3.) Fill out the RC inventory together and do ALL RC together and you both have to want that particular activity.

You didn't have much time since the call and the separation, but did you get started on this?

Dr. Harley said your wife has felt like she's been under your thumb for many years and wants to share control rather than being dominated.

It appears that you are pretty good at some things within the marriage but love bust so frequently that your wife's love bank is drained.

My recommendation is to call your wife or, perhaps better, send her a letter respectfully telling her that you understand why she is withdrawn from you and why she felt like she needed to leave. Tell her that there has not been enough time for her to see that your changes (presuming that there have been noticeable changes) are permanent and that you will never again hurt her or demand your own way. Agree with her that you have not taken extraordinary care in your marriage as you should have. Tell her you intend to become a better man and then detail exactly what and how you plan to do that. Then start doing it.

No matter what - do not be with other women or succumb to love busters. Read the book again and take notes on what you need to get to work on.

If your wife is willing, take her out on dates. Make sure they are things that you both want to do, not things that only you want to do.

As to finances, before panicking, take note of all your expenses and see where you can cut back. Sounds like you have, or had, a savings account. See where all your assets are and protect them for the marriage. Don't cut your wife off financially.

Do you know about the POJA?

Now that you have been on the radio program, the Harleys will continue to assist if you ask them. Please continue to get their coaching and help. Be very careful about going to a non-MB or MB-supplemented only counselor.

LongWay - Thank for your taking time listen to my call and get a read on my situation.
I discerned this to be the case.
Dr.Harley specifically advised you to:

I have not written them out. We only made it (my reading aloud) through 3-4 pages of SAA. So I don�t believe my wife would have the needed understanding of the value placed on EP�s that I would agree to. She does and has always have known my passwords. She�s honestly never bothered much to venture into my email or social network activity�even when I insist she do so. She�s a firm believer in independence. I believe she knows my whereabouts most of the time. When I feel she doesn�t I sent her message or call to check-in and ask if she needs anything. We�ve also had family trackers on our phones for some time so she could always utilize that option. (she removed her number from the tracking account after leaving on Tuesday�no surprise there.)
No angry outburst since. Done with those for life. DJ�s? I would say not at all. She may answer differently considering my questioning to go through the MB process. Certainly no name calling nor the like. IB? No
I printed it. She looked it over briefly. She�s not interested. She did however fill out an ENQ for the Dr. Harley and it stated �As our recreational desired are different I prefer not to have companionship. It can be better satisfied by me having more time to enjoy things I like to do�
Did I mention she was a firm believer in independence? I recall Dr. Harley discussion on air about how we think having an independent spouse is such a great thing in terms of martial philosophy�but how that trait comes back to bite you over time. That�s the dilemma we have.
I got started on as much as I could, but she was never interested from the outset regardless of the numerous accounts of success from you guys on the forum or the calls on MB radio. She listened to a few upon my insistence.
I concer

I�ve put all of this in writing and given to her..not in those exact words but very very close. But that was before she left. Perhaps I will do a follow-up all inclusive letter along those lines. She�s not really taking my calls at the moment. We have been texting today about my seeing my children soon.
As I am writing this�the movers have shown up again at our house. She explained what all she is taking. No fight�.no quarrels


don�t know�maybe later
Yes, she�s not interested at this point.

That�s why I�m headed as we speak. 3pm appointment. Wish me luck. The wife is not joining me today.

Sorry for the numerous typos above as I was rushing out the door to get to my solo counseling session which turned out well as a one on one. There will be more. The therapist actually suggested what I determined to be a "friend of good conversation" to discuss our pains 10 � 15 minutes of exchange and listen. Not so sure about discussing the pains part though. As I returned from counseling my wife was still at our home with the movers. I texted her on the way home (I have Siri � so I paid attention to the road ) letting her know the session went well and that I had some things to share that was suggested. Neither did I or nor she think that she would still be there when I returned. As I walked in she said she had just replied to my text and I noticed her staring out into our big bay window into the back yard with tears in her eyes. I asked what was wrong�she said �the house� and stopped�then she said �I�m sorry�.can I call you later�I�m paying these guys by the hour� (i.e.you mean WE are paying these guys with OUR money) I kept the aforementioned thought to myself and said ok. As I looked down at her text it said the following � Ok. Thank you for sharing [about the counseling]. I am getting the last box out of the house. I really appreciate it. I hate the way it looks. It really hurts me. I am sorry. I still love you�.
I must admit I was a little tee�d off about the way the house looked knowing how much work and effort I�ve put into it with my own hands. But I was also glad that she felt some uneasiness about going this route. I sat out front and watched as the moving truck drove off.
One thing I forgot to mention before I went to my session is that I asked if our children were back at school. I went by there earlier to hug and kiss them since I had not seen them since Tuesday morning and they were not there. I sent her text indicating I did so..and what�s up�she replied that they were �we decided to take our first spring break and they very were happy�. Can�t explain the feeling that went over my body but I quickly calmed down. I asked the same question before I left for my session today and she repeated the answer. I asked if they would be back at school on tomorrow and she responded no. I frankly asked �where are they?� She said we�ll talk about it. I am soooo glad I needed to head out the door because I felt my brows burn. Needless to say � I don�t know exactly where my children are located. THAT is a problem! Both the therapist and the attorney I consulted with immediately after seeing they weren�t at daycare indicated that I have every right to know where they are located and to have access to them. They both stated that I should respectively press the issue. I�ll report back on how that turns out.

Have you found out where your children are?

DNT,

Okay, I reread your posts and actually really read them vs. skimming them. So now that I have come to the realization that you are a wayward vs.a battered, your story actually reflects much more closely to my own.

My BH allowed me back only two weeks after my A. He, like your wife tried very hard to get past my A and could not. A month later he unexpected moved out and even though I deserved it, it took me totally by surprise because in my mind I thought we were in recovery. In his mind, he was barely hanging on. This was all pre MB.

Your wife has built a protective wall around her heart. The reason she is cold (in which I originally mistook for fog) is her protecting herself from you.

I noticed you said she is not interested in EP's, POJA, or anything you have to offer MB wise. my suggestion, DO IT ANYWAY WITH NO EXPECTATIONS!!! Even if you do not get her back, show her that you are willing to change and change for good. Not just for her but for you and your children.

I can't promise you anything and I am not guaranteeing a happy ending. I can tell you when I truly started to show my H that I was changing and continued to change, he took me back.

It was when I finally ended my selfishness and let him go, that he let down his wall and allowed me back in. This did not happen over night and he actually left two additional times after the original time. I had to let him go and just continue to show him that no matter what I was a different person determined to protect our marriage.

From your recent post I can see that your wife still feels something for you and your marriage. However her mindset right now is the the present is too hard to salvage anything in the past. Your job is to show her that you can provide her a better future.

Again, no expectations. Change yourself for you but show your wife along the way that you are going to be a different man.

At this point I have not. I just sent her a text to call me so we can discussed the children. My intention is to communicate what both the therapist and attorney have indicated...as the father I have a right and responsibility to know where my children are located at all times... especially in Texas.

Yes fifteen our situations sound very similiar. I will do as you suggested with no expectations...other than seeing my children. That's non-negotiable. Am I wrong for stating that? Everyone I've consulted with doesn't seem to think so. I want my marriage to be restored. It's best for us and our children but I'll give her what ever time and space that she needs.

Again I state our situation is simliar with one caveat. I hear Dr. Harley mention (I listen often :)) that a reluctant wife is hardest to win over as opposed to a reluctant husband. In our case it's likely even harder with so much pain of my own doing to overcome. But I am hopeful that she will come around. I beleive she loves me. I just can't beleive she's acting like this with our little ones.

But DNT, she may decide it is not best for her. Only SHE can decide that. And that is her right. It is disrespectful for you to tell a grown woman that it is best for her to stay in a marriage where there has been so much abuse. You are not in a position to decide that for her since you are the reason she wants to leave the marriage.

Don't make the situation worse by telling her you know what is best for HER.

Understood... best for our children only. When I state for us I mean as a family unit including the children. But I understand your point..I can't decide for HER. It's only slight deviation isn't it from the question I've seen on here stating "don't you think you would be happiest if you were in love with the father/mother of your children?" Or am I taking that out context? Or perhaps if only "slight" deviation a very important one?

But, you are taking it out of context. Dr Harley says that to wayward spouses on behalf of a betrayed spouse who is willing to take her spouse back. He doesn't say that to the victim of an affair because that is the only person who is qualified to decide if it is in her best interest to continue the marriage.

However, if a BS expresses she doesn't want the marriage, he wishes her well.

I wouldn't bring up what is best for your children since it was your affairs that brought their family down. YOU threw the gasoline on your marriage.

Here is what Dr Harley tells betrayed spouses:

Dr. Willard Harley from his infidelity video

Got it... Melody I know that you are making the crooked places straight for me and I appreciate your being candid. But, if I didn't know any better I'd suspect you of being slightly biased ..but I think I know better

Guess who is the least objective person on this thread?

X2

I don't know if you have used this type of language with your W but I would advise you not to. As the XW of a serial cheater, I can tell you this would bother me. EA, PA, just starting to cross the line, it honestly doesn't matter much (not to me anyway). You also said something about the affairs being "symptoms" of problems in the M to Dr Harley. Again, I would advise you to knock that kind of talk off. That is only going to anger your W even more.

You stepped outside the marriage numerous times over the years and lied to your W about it for 10 years. The lies are the most painful part of betrayal. Just because you have very recently come clean doesn't minimize the damage that has done.

Your W obviously feels tricked into staying in an abusive marriage that it sounds like she was very unhappy in. It did not surprise me at all to hear her emphasize the words "controlling" and "manipulating" regarding you in her email to Dr Harley.

I am sorry that you are frustrated that she hasn't responded better to your efforts to recover the marriage but in my view, just from the way that you sound on this thread, I wouldn't be surprised if you are continuing to use language that contains DJs with her. It may take a very long PLAN A for you to get her to warm up to you.

You said that you are doing Plan A, but it sounds like what is happening is a lot of talk to try to convince her to come back to the marriage. That is DJ. Trying to get her to see things from your POV, trying her to get her to do things you want her to do, trying to straighten her out in any way is a DJ. This the opposite of what you want to be doing.

Since you have limited conversations with her, you should be trying to make the pleasant and be avoiding relationship talk. I have more Plan A advice that was given to me all the way back when I got here in 2007 and my xH was living outside the home that I can share if you would like it.

I agree that your W should tell you where she is staying with the children and also be willing to work out some type of a schedule with you regarding visitation -- but that you have a right to know where the children are "located at all times"?

In separation and D, at least in my state, during the time the child is with the other parent, they are not under an obligation to tell the other where the child is "at all times". I don't think I have ever heard another divored/divorcing person use that language. It sounds controlling. Again, the opposite of what you should be doing.

Some good clips.

Radio Clip
Radio Clip

Tell us what you think.

There is no such thing as "legal" seperation in Texas. If there is a divorce decree in effect then yes I would not have the right to know where they are "at all times" when the child is with the other parent. We have no decree. (she has never once stated she intends to D...only seperate) I don't think I've made that clear in this thrread, but that is also what she stated in her email.

I have not been talking relationship with my W since she left, nor do I intend to. Just very anxious to know where my babies are at this point...so much I feel the need to involve law enforcement to locate them. No friends or family have responded to knowing there where abouts.

H and W relationship is on the back burner at this point.

Thanks SusieQ I will take any help I can get to avoid misteps. I have not been talking relationship nor using any language to catagorize my PA's vs EA's to my wife.

Below is our text exchange regarding our children last night and this morning. I expect to hear very bad things (especially MelodyLane), but fire away:

Me 3/20 9:23pm: I would appreciate your giving me a call to discuss our children as you stated you would.

Me 3/20 10:44pm ok - i respect your right to do what you feel is best for your healing and own well being. I've consulted with Bishop [our church Pastor} tonight, Sheila today, and spent an hour visiting with an attorney after leaving Sloan regarding the whereabouts of C***** (DS 5yr) and V**** (DD 1yr). As the father of the children I have not only a legal right but also a responsibility to know where my biological minor children are located at all times. I didn't want to seemingly force any issue but they all suggest I do so.

Her 3/21 7:45am Our children are safe with me. They are sleeping well. Eating well. They are very happy. As I said yesterday, I am sure we can work something out that is agreeable to both you and in their best interest. I especially do not want our children to grow up with out the love and attention from their father. I just want it all to be positive energy. We can talk about it later today. I can just still hear you calling them distractions and saying the devil is using them and demanding they stay in separate rooms from us with teeth gritted. I just don't want that negative energy around them. I am sure you understand.

Me 3/21 8:08am Thanks for responding. Sheila [the therapist]communicated that it's very important that we not talk relationship in any form (past, present, or future) that has not been strictly defined. Especially by text. So I can't respond to what you imply that I understand. I hope you understand that needing to see my children has nothing to do with our relationship. I look forward to pleasantly and safely discussing an arrangement to see them at some point today. I love you

Her 8:10'ish 3/21 I will contact you later today

I don't think you understood my point.

Help me SusieQ. Perhaps I'm jaded about having not seen my children since Tuesday AM after seeing them daily since the very moment they were born and knowing they are looking for me as they always have every morning and evening when we arrive home. Help me...

Does she have an iphone with a phone finder on it?

If you are refering to Family Tracker she did until Tuesday. She removed her phone from being tracked and also removed her number from our family account. Expecting a large contract cancellation fee as result. Do you mean something different?

I did track her during the time period as the large sums of money were being shifted in our bank accounts. I have very good idea of where she may be residing, but I'm not even entertaining the thought of going there. It's only 2 miles from our house if my suspicions are correct.

Hopefully she will let you see the kids today. I will just tell you she is making a huge mistake by withholding your kids. That infuriates most judges. Texas judges are not very tolerant of such shenanigans.

I would be prepared to insist on a visitation schedule and the ability to call your kids. You do have a right to know where they are.

My point was instead of using language that sounds like you are demanding to be told where your children are "at all times" that you instead approach her about working out a visitation schedule and have her tell you where she is staying with the children. I think you will get further with her that way.

Had my xWH used language with me like that ie "I have a right and responsibility to know where my children are located AT ALL TIMES" to be honest it would have pissed me off.

Thank you Melody. I really, really hope I see them today. I'm almost at wits endAll of this is precisely what the attorneys said on yesterday. I'm documenting all exchanges if God forbid we have to go before a judge.

Susie those weren't my words. I was simply relaying the rights communicated to me by the family lawyer and marital counselor of 40+ years. I really desire to be civil, very gentle, and not make demands but it's very difficult to seperate the issues of our marriage from seeing my babies. That's why I was hesitant to press the issue like most have advised me to do.

Please follow Susie's suggestions about making demands. If you make demands, she might go on the defensive. Hopefully, this works out today! She is making serious mistakes right now.

Where is it you think she's at? With family?

She has an apartment about 2-3 miles from our house. I am almost certain of the exact the property. It's gated with a guard box. My son saw her driving on his way to bible study last night. He states she turned onto the road that takes her to the complex. His 19th birthday was Monday and he is very very upset. He's a Sr in HS with 2 months until graduation. They were very close. He's my biological.

Going to see my babies today!

Good for you!!

Well we did Chuck E Cheese with the kiddos tonight and had an emotional but GREAT time with them. My W brought her SIL along for she calls "accountability". I wouldn't be honest if I said it didn't bother me. Not because my W wanted accountability (not even sure what that means) but it's the fact that I watched my SIL on my web enabled security cameras taking belongings out of my house on Tuesday. I've bailed this SIL in law out of soooo many bad situations that I've lost count. I've come to her rescue when she totaled vehicles, gotten them reposessed, lended her money when she needed it, allowed her take residence in our home a few times, and let her drive the vehicle that I purchased for my son to drive to and from school...etc, etc, etc. But this was about my kiddos...wasn't it?! I didn't get a read on my W. I only said a few words to her. I made the most of playing games and chasing my babies around. The emotional part came as I was putting them in their car seats, my DS (5) started asking if I and his older brother would be at the "old house". Then he asked if we were going to come to the "new house". I said gently 'I don't know. The he said in his sweet little voice "you should...you know you can come by anytime". I nearly lost it at that point. I got them buckled in and darted immediatly to my vehicle. Once I got going I sent a text to my W simply saying "thank you". Then I sent another text saying "sorry for darting off, but I didn't want to get all emotional after C**** (DS)'s line of questioning. She later replied "I understand. Thanks for making it a pleasant evening". I can at least exhale for now having seen my children. She mentioned doing something for our traditional Triple-F (Friday family fun) so my oldest can join us tomorrow. We'll see

That's great!! What at your next steps?

I haven't thought that far Melody. Any suggestions? I didn't mention it above but it felt a little weird as I was somewhat disinterested in interacting with my BW.

Well Friday family fun didn't go as planned. W backed out. May have somthing to do with my mentioning that I attempted use our credit cards for my son's (her SS) tuxedo rental for his Sr. Banquet on Monday and they were declined. I called the bank to learn that my name was removed from the accounts. And here is our text exchange---
Me 3:46: Thought of anything for Triple F? How about Main Event?
Her 4:09: I don't know.
Her 4:32: Not tonight.
Me 4:33 Ok. I would still like to see them. SS (19yr) was expecting to as well. I was thinking DS (5yr) needs a hair cut and I assume he's still starting baseball in the morning. I had planned to continue playing catch so he's confident and not afraid of the ball. He was very doing well. How u feel about him coming over for a while?
Her 4:45: I'm not ready for that yet.
Me 4:45: Ok. I would still like to see them today in some manner.
Her 4:46 Let me think
Me 5:19 Thought you might want to go to WINGS [women's church service) as well
Me 5:55 [affter arriving homr from the rental shop] just tried to use Amex and BoA visa for SS's tuxedo to preserve cash. Why did u cxl my cards babe?
Me 5:57 Nevermind...it's fine
Me 5:57 just want to see my kiddos. come up with something?
Her 5:58 Not tonight. No more messages please. This is causing me to feel stressed
Me 6:05 Sorry - didn't mean to stress you.

Me...angry, hurt about not being able to see me kids, having to tell my oldest, possible love unit withdrawal. This sux!

You need to contact a lawyer and get your visitation and get your finances protected. What is your financial situation? Do you share a bank account? She cannot legally withhold your children from you.

Yes please contact your lawyer.

Yes we share a bank account. She drained our savings to facilitate her move. The remaining cash that was left I have been transfering to a peronal e-trade checking account. It takes both of our incomes to maintain our home, so I've contacted the lender to initiate a possible restructuring of our mortgage. They may be able to offer a lowered payment to due financial hardship through their home retention program. hey are fully aware of the situation and seem to be helpful. However, in order to NOT consider her income they would need either a seperation agreement which doesn't exists in Texas or a divorce decree ---this is not what we intended to do--- we've both concluded so. Of course my only motivation to save the house is the hope that we will reconcile sooner rather than later and our children will be able to enjoy the home they LOVE. We have 3,000 sq.ft. single story that allows them to run free.

I plan to meet with my Pastor today. He knows the details our situation as well but was out of town when this all happened. He is very pratical and will provide great guidence. I will let him know my intentions to contact the lawyer and if he has no objection then that will be my next stop.

DNT,

You are doing great! Remember baby steps and no expectations. The others are right though your wife should not use your kids as leverage or punish you by not allowing you to see them.

Lawyer up and keep your cool.

Thanks fifteen! Well in a somewhat dramatic turn of events my wife brought my kiddos by THE HOUSE to see me! I dance now but today certainly didn't start as music to my ears. My heart was broken earlier because I expected our family to attend church service as we always do. I told a friend of mine that today would be a moment of truth as it relates to my wife's intentions. I told him if you see us sitting together in church then this will be a temporary separation, but if you don't then... all bets are off.

Her mother (MIL) is at her place. She lives 3 hours away and came for my DS�s Sr, banquet on tomorrow night. I mention her because she actually brought my DS (5) over to our house on yesterday so I could give him a haircut. That was �ok�. They were there a very short time. My MIL and I typically have a great relationship but we only talked on the surface yesterday as she�s been avoiding most of my texts and calls when I was acquiring about her having knowledge about what was going on.

Anyway�back to today. I called my W as I left our home for church and received no answer. Called and texted my MIL as well and got nothing. After several texts I drive off the parking and nearly headed home. I made a U turn and went back to church because I still believe God is in control in all of this and I�m not going to miss a blessing. It was the toughest time ever in a worship service but it was exactly what I needed. We are a very visible couple and there are a few in the congregation who know what is going on and they all managed to assure that they were praying for us. I balled on the way home, but decided I wasn�t going to be discouraged.

After making dinner I sent another text to my W asking if she think my MIL could bring my DS and DD by so I can see them. She responded �She us happily still in her PJ�s. Doesn�t plan on leaving all today� (perhaps she was talking about my DD?) I replied �OK. Do you mind? Haven�t seen my daughter since Thurs�. W reply �Eating now. We will figure it out� Me: Great! She sends a few more text about our oldest who went back to church for an Easter program and she said she would come by when he returned. And she did!! I can�t tell the joy I felt seeing my babies come through that door reaching and yelling �Daddy! Daddy!� We had a great time. For a moment, everything felt normal as my babies ran through the house going to their usual spots in every room laughing and pointing at things they recognize. I made small talk with my W. She sat on the sofa and watched a little TV as we all played. I can tell she enjoyed that they were happy. I made it a point to mention that our pastor and 1st lady (Bishop�s wife) came to me and could barely contain herself and said �I�m praying you�I am sooo grieved�sooo grieved�. She is quite close to my W and our spiritual mother. My W just knodded her head at my stating this. She and the kiddos stayed much longer than she said she would and it was great. She put my DD in the car seat and I closed the door. She welcomed my signature kiss on the cheek and we both said our �love you�s� and she left on what I beleive was a good note.

I should mention that my wife stated in her text before coming by that she wanted to take one of our vacuums and another item. I think she may have been so please with her visit that she forgot both. I�m calling today a small victory...and I�m still lawyering up.

That is awesome and you get another chance to have her come back to get the vacuums and fulfill some more of her love units if she will allow you to.

I do think that she still loves you but she does not trust you. She is very guarded because you broke her once and she will never let you do that again.

Her coming to the house today with the kids and spending time together is a very good sign.

Well my son's Sr banquet was somewhat chaotic and sad.So it all began with my wife running around like a chicken with her head cut off because MY W is a board member for the org. My babies were restless, hungry, and very fussy. This just wouldn't happen if they were in our home...at least not the hungry part. My 5 year old is showing effects from the disruption in his attitude. He said "I am ready to come back to my old home". That hurt... Then he informed my that he had a "big boy day" in his NEW class at his NEW school. Whaaat?! I kept my cool throughout and took my daughter out of the banquet hall often as she was crying often. It was great spending time with my DS but spent very little time interacting with my W. My wife then came outside of the room as I was keeping our DD occupied to let me know she called her sister to come take the kiddos to her place. Releif!!! Or so I thought. Several minutes after my SIL left with our babies my wife begins to text and answer calls. It's my SIL who has arrived at my W's place but has LOST THE DOOR KEY!! Now my W has to leave to either go look for the lost key or call maintenance to unlock the door. My W leaves with my SIL and that's the last I see of her for the night. My DS...is noticeable bothered as he expected us all to take family pictures. I was really sad for him. This was night we've waited for - for a long time. I'm sure most people could notice my discontent as I attempted to smile while receiving congrats for my son's recognition.

Fast forward to today's texts

Me 9:20am: G-morning babe. C**** DS(5) mentioned ystrday he had a good day in his new class at his new school. Where are my kiddos now?

Her 11:49am Good morning. I will try to call you later tonight so we can talk.

Me 6:57pm Cooking speghetti if you and the kiddos haven't eaten

Her 6:58 Thank You! We are finishing lasagna salad and garlic
bread

Me 6:58

Me 9:13pm just a reminder to call about the new school

Me 10:14pm still awake?

nothing...

can't wait to see my lawyer at 1pm Thursday. I've already drafted a seperation agreement with a visitation schedule to be filed by the courts. I learned this was enforceable in Texas afterall.

Rec'd a text this morning from W at 6:41AM 3/27 - Sorry. Fell aleep with the kids fully dressed.
Me 7:01 Oh wow
Her 7:02 They were clean and snug in their pjs and I thought I would snuggle for a min. Ha!

Had a relatively pleasant conversation with my BW tonight...and she said she wants a D.

So is she filing? Or will you have her served?

I have no idea. She indicated that she has a lawyer. I told her that I was meeting with a lawyer tomorrow to discuss visitation rights and potentially filing a seperation agreement in attempt to save our home through loan modification. That was after she continued to not disclose where my children were attending school. Again...the conversation wasn't continuous at all.

Why would I file?

Depending on what state you're in, sometimes the first to file has leverage. I thought Texas may be one of those states.

I'm not going for leverage. I really, really, really want to save my marriage. Please pray for me/us. I'm in a dark place

Praying for you.
Are you aware of how valuable the dark place can be?
In the dark, can we learn the most valuable lessons of our life.
We learn what is important.
This is Easter week. The darkest of days in Christendom.
The darkest days that provide contrast to what is good & true & important.
Celebrate this Easter by renewing your faith and your hope and accept the Peace of knowing that when you walk in the darkness, you are not alone.


Peace be with you.

DNT,

I am praying for you. My darkest days continue to haunt me but they also remind me of what I could have lost and what I have to work hard everyday to hold onto. There will be a light at the end of the tunnel your just not sure at this point what tunnel you will be coming out of.

Keep working for yourself and your children. My H threatened Divorce several times.

Hi, DNT, I have prayed for you.

Are you a daily listener to the Marriage Builders radio show? HUSBANDS with marriages in CRISIS need to be.

Have you seen a doctor about getting some antidepressants to help enable you to act strategically when your emotions want to pull you all over the map?

I also second that you ask your doctor for some ADs/anti-anxiety meds.

Also, found a radio clip. Hope it helps.
Radio Clip

Thanks everyone for your prayers. It all helps. I am inthe process of changinf primary care docs so I may ask the therapist for recommendations on getting something to take. she's still witholding the children which is the most painful part. We have decided to go the mediation route to establish a visitation schedule. At least that is my motivation.


Thanks BrainHurts this was very helpful. I am a consistent listener of the show.

Pepperband this was sooo needed. I never thought I would need to pray the 23rd Psalms...but it became very real and appropriate for the way I've been feeling.

((( BIG HUGS )))

W attended therapy with me today for the 1st time since our session 3 weeks ago. When the therapist asked what she could help us with today my W said that she thought it would be good to have a 3rd party assist us with understanding where we are...that being headed for D. Crushed me to hear it. I then voiced what I thought would be helpful and that is work toward healing our marriage. I went into how I figured out what my personal issues were and vowed to never put our relationship in a situation like that again...as I now have accountability and a real system in place.(None of what MB recommends - but I think we are way off that track for the forseeable future). My W stated that she "heard" me, but is not willing to allow herself to come back and risk being hurt again. She insisted that we just be the best people we can be apart for our children. Which by the way I still don't know where they attend school/daycare. After our session I asked if I could spen time with them today and mentioned how I saw them Saturday my DS baseball game and on Sunday - she brought them over for dinner and an Easter egg hunt at our house.

I can't beleive how much of a mess I made to be in this situation where she consistently communicates there is no hope whatsoever. I thought today would be different. We are scheduled to meet with a mediator on Monday for a free consulation to possible assist us in dealing with our home and children visitation issues. My faith is being tested beyond beleive. I need to know that something will change somehow and not continue to feel worse. I hope that God does what he promises and restores us. This is a scary place

Ummm. I am requesting to be smacked around a little bit for my thoughts of even considering pulling a FG and entertaining the notion of "moving on" to single life. I am the former serial WH for Pete's sake! FG's plight was almost justified...right? Lash away!

An affair, revenge or otherwise, is NEVER justified. There are reasons for affairs but there is never an excuse for one.

Don't you want to give your marriage your best effort? Don't you think your wife and children deserve to have the best husband and the best father you could be?

Sure it's easy to throw in the towel and "move on" to the single life. Your wife would, at that time, realize she doesn't mean dog poop to you. And how will your "moving on" benefit you?

You will get a few ENs met in the short term, but this will not make you a better man. A better man is going to grow and learn and exercise patience and extraordinary care for the woman he promised once to cherish and protect.

If your wife chooses to never return to you, you would still benefit by learning to become a better man. A really good man has a better chance of attracting a really good woman. And that woman, hopefully, will be your wife.

X2

Thank you LongWay - It's hard to argue with any of this. As someone who has a life long propensity to be compulsive the patience part is very very hard.

I would not do mediation.
Your wife has made her position clear. She wants divorce.
You need a divorce attorney to protect your rights

When you discuss divorce agreements in mediation you cause love bank withdrawals. Let an attorney do that.
When she sees and interacts with you it needs to be 100% plan A.

Thanks for the advice Jedi. I read your story about your divorce and your kids crying their eyes out to my wife before she left. Didn't make a bit of difference apparently. There is one thing the therapist suggested that we both agreed to follow. This is to hold off on any divorce talk or process and "walk our on paths" toward healing and being the best people we can be for our children and make the co-parenting relationship work. My wife also agreed to continue attending counseling sessions with me as long as there is "no motives for my wanting reconciliation". I really don't want to do mediation either but I feel it's the only way wy wife will stop stringing my children along and rashing out visitation time. That is EATING ME ALIVE! At least we could develop a formal schedule for visitation. I also thought it may be a mechanism to move my W and children back into our house and allow me to leave the house. I have somewhere that I could go for almost rent free for a while which means I could still pay the mortage and other expenses. I don't want to lose our home!

Some people call this job of a WS 'patience'. I do not usually ask the WS to be patient.
You don't need to learn patience (in my opinion).
You need to learn discipline.

The difference is subtle at first glance .... but it is really a very different task to ask of yourself.

vs

Patience is so passive. Too passive for you.
Discipline implies learning and/or training and taking deliberate actions. Calculating movements.

Patience is required as you wait to be called next in line.

I'm just asking you to re-frame your task to make it more proactive.

It's often easy for a man to say "I am not a patient person."
But, it is much harder for a man to say (and accept about himself) "I am an undisciplined man."

See?

I have long noted that the life-style cheaters are both lazy and undisciplined.
Patience? I really don't think it is a skill you should be aiming for right now. Aim much higher.

THIS... is....amazing! Dead on accurate. I was never parented to be disciplined, never had many boundaries, or rules to follow, or at least those that I couldn't wiggle my way out of. Yes, I agree, patience is waaay too passive for me. Proactive discipline must be my goal. I fully admit that AM an undisciplined man. Wow, what revelation... I thank God for you Pepperband.

DNT

Think of the world's most successful people. Forbes 500 types. The most admirable and accomplished people.
Are they patiently waiting for good things to happen?
Are they self disciplined and proactive?
Is Oprah Winfrey a patient woman? Maybe she is. But I'll bet you that discipline, ambition, hard work and courage are what earned her success, not waiting patiently.

Patience is a good quality. Patience is no substitute for ambition, drive, courage, and discipline. And all that jazz.

When a major league player patiently waits for the right pitch, he has the skills to smack that ball hard because he was already disciplined and learned the rules.

Be a major league player.
Don't wait to pull the winning lotto numbers.

Go Giants!

At approximately 7pm today a little old lady attempted to serve me divorce papers. I pretended to be my son...so it was a no go. My wife and babies were over for burgers and fries and some family time together...then my doorbell rang. I knew it! Before I even got off the floor as my daughter was having so much fun jumping all over me and as my son sat next to me playing video games....I knew it! My world flipped, to say the least. I'll say more in while but I'll just say for now that my wife and I shared very good laugh as she left our home with the children. It seems that God peaked his head in our situation if only for a moment because he directed me to give her a gift that has always been in her heart to carry out. She was wowed...it was clearly a God thing to both of uss She said she would call later before leaving... she just sent another text as I type this saying "she's going to show and will call me afterward if that is ok". I shall return...

So as I was saying. A lady attempted to serve me divorce papers. I just looked at my W in disbelief - but not really. I knew it was coming as I said before. I just told her how overwhelming it would be to have to go through the process, not only logistically, but having to tell my elderly parents, let go of our home, and the costs of it all. She informed me that she actually filed the day she left 3/19. We talked for a good while and I was calm the whole time. I then gave her something I believe God gave me to create for her. She always said that she would write a book about our marriage one day, but she said that God still had not finished the story. She stated about a year ago while we were out for lunch that she knew that we would have to go through many more challenges for the story to be written. On last week I designed the dust jacket for her book and it is AWESOME! I wish I could take credit for it, but it was all God. I printed a rough draft and purchased a hardcopy journal to be used as a prototype. When I presented it to her after all of my emotions and my feelings turmoil subsided - she was very pleased. I then reminded her of what she said that day at lunch. I reminded her that she said that we would be pushed to the brink...and that I believe we were at the brink so I think it's time you started to write. She said yeah, you are right and nodded in agreement. I explained to her how many of our problems were rooted in how I always wanted her to support my dreams, but now was the time that I needed to support her dreams and how people will be blessed by her work. To make a long description of our evening short - when she called me I asked if she if she really liked the cover again and she gave an enthusiastic yes. Is this our ram in the bush?
Here is a copy of it. I blotted the name and photo out in attempt to remain somewhat anonymous. Shopping For Chandeliers

It wasn't me, I promise.

DNT, you did good. No, that was Fantastic!!!!

Worshiped with my W and children for the 1st time in 3 weeks today. She then brought them by the house for some daddy time. I can tell her heart is still hardened toward me. I still believe she wants to be done. We are still scheduled to meet with a mediator on tomorrow. Not really sure what to expect. How do I ask the question "are you going to have the process server attempt to serve me with divorce papers again"? I honestly afraid to ask any questions as it relates to us. She watched on show on PBS about feminism and talked to me about it for a little while. I enjoyed hearing her talk. Love unit deposits?

On Saturday I hung with some of my good church buddies and we attended a fellowship group. I met a guy who spoke freely about his relationship issues. I felt compelled to talk about my situation and many guys offered their support prayers and even said they were encouraged. It was great! Iron sharpens iron! I told my W about my day with the guys and how I believed it was exactly what I needed, how guys were encouraged, and how they encouraged me to keep the faith and fight for my family. She never responds to that kind of talk and I don't really expect her to do so. I am just curious if it makes any difference. I feel like tomorrow is a critical today. Praying that something good comes about and working on developing discipline.

Yes it makes a difference. You are making LB deposits for sure. Keep the faith and keep makinng deposits..

Imagine the impact you will have on your children's lives as you become more disciplined. You want your kids to be disciplined, don't you? Why? Because that character trait will allow them to lead more productive and successful lives. Self-controlled and not other-controlled. Something good will come. How could it not?

The alternative to discipline is just a gross mess. Chaos.

Well, you have a lot of previous bad behavior to atone for.
Harley has written about becoming irresistible to your spouse.

LINK to discussion His Needs Her Needs.

In the following link, we MBers discussed an article written by Dr Harley's son, Steve Harley.

"When you have hurt your spouse"

It does not matter if you did not intend to hurt your wife.
What matters is you learn how not to hurt your wife.
Good intentions just don't get the job done.

DNT, find out why saying: "I never meant to hurt you." is counterproductive to helping your marriage.

As you become a disciplined man, your mind will understand your life with a deeper understanding.

This link is to another discussion, me rambling on about ~~~> [color:#CC0000]"locus of control"[/color]

The locus of control is all about self management. Self discipline.

This is not to undermine what role God plays. However, we are not God's puppets. He has given us choices to make. What we do with our choices makes up our character.

I like you DNT. I listened to you on the radio. I see so much potential within you.

Time to work your MB muscles.

LINK to BRF discussion.

Read the thread through. You will eventually get to the POJA rules.

Just the start .....


DNT, it's time to be a BUYER.

Pep I thank for all of this. It's exceptional...BUT I have more bad news. I met with the mediators today for our consultation. My W couldn't make it and conference in by phone. She confidently restated her intentions of going though with the divorce. She's done...that's all there is to it. I know her. I hear it in her voice. I see it in her eyes (when I do see them). Wow... I'm still committed to working on me, but I just can't stand to imagine the pain this will cause our children. There is no history of divorce in my family. I have cursed our legacy.

So as I was listening to MB radio today and Dr. Harley was making the statement he beleives "that if a BS wants out of the marriage then I say go for it!" Joyce asks why do you say it so bluntly (not exact words)... Dr. Harley then repsonds and said because infidelty is the worst thing a person will ever experience... AT THAT VERY SECOND...I kid you not - the process server shows up in front of my house to serve the D papers. I took them, told her I was sorry about the evening before, and she prayed for us.

Any ideas what I should be doing in Plan A, having been served D papers. I've not been committing any LB's. We have been discussion the "business" of separating...ie removing names from joint bank accounts, gym memberships, car insurance, etc..etc. It pains me with each discussion or text, but no LB's. Tonight as my kiddos were over, we had dinner... I mentioned that I was thinking about getting a couple of tickets to the symphony. I mentioned how we had such a good nice time last time we went. She agree "it was nice". I then said maybe we can check it out just to get out. She didn't really respond any further, which I am actually happy about. Her rejection has been brutal...but that's been my fault, because I've asking to give us another chance. A no no, right? Is there anything else I should be doing?

Have you given her a list of EP that you are willing to take no matter what she decides? EP, just because you never had them before and EP's that you are willing to stick with until the divorce is final or even further.

Just a thought.

I have not the form of EP's MB style, just a list of promises. I borrowed this from another thread a while back with intentions of giving it to her. How does it look?

Extraordinary Precautions
I will protect my spouse and their feelings above all else.
1. I will not participate in any one-on-one meetings with anyone of the opposite sex.
2. I will not discuss my personal marriage issues with anyone of the opposite sex.
3. I will not attend clubs, strip joints, or any such establishment
4. I agree to use POJA as a basis for all decisions.
5. I will be open and honest with my spouse at all times about the past and present.
6. I will provide my spouse a daily schedule of all appointments and contact information.
7. If I need to make an adjustment to my schedule, I will notify my spouse of the change immediately.
8. I will make my spouse�s phone calls my highest priority by answering them or returning them immediately.
9. I will avoid all chat rooms, porn, member sites, etc.
10. I will trade phones with my spouse at any time they request, NO questions asked.
11. I will leave my phone accessible to my spouse at night/or anytime I�m home.
12. I will commit to at least 15 hours of undivided attention with my spouse to meet each other�s ENs every week (time working together does not count toward those 15 hours .
13. If AP finds a way to make contact, I will immediately end the contact and notify my spouse about it immediately after.
14. I will install a keylogger, GPS, or any other tracking system my spouse may request.
15. Anytime I have the thought, �I don�t want my spouse to know about��.�, I will call my spouse immediately and tell them my thoughts.
16. Provide access to all email accounts.
17. Eliminate all social networking accounts (i.e., Face book, Classmates, My Space, etc.
18. Take a polygraph on demand
19. List out passwords for all business and personal computer logins, and any other passwords my spouse does not have access to.
20. Install software that tracks all internet use, giving my spouse administrative access.
21. Anything else my spouse wants as a boundary.

In my final divorce court, although not stated in writing, the judge said "Both parents have the right to know where the children are at all times and phone numbers to speak to them"

Didn't know if I should have posted in the divorcing forum or here, so I did both. My apologies for double dipping.

Well.. We had a temporary hearing on yesterday. One of the roughest days of my life. My wife managed to get an overzealous attorney and I knew how this was unfold the moment he called me two days before the trial wanting to meet with me at court to "work out an agreement". Yeah right... I quickly retained the attorney that I had been consulting with for over a week. I had begun putting my case (financial and children matters) together for weeks now expecting the worse. The worse happened. I spoke again with my W�s attorney the day before the hearing and agreed to meet with he and my W. I called my W the night before and informed her that I retained a different attorney (our mutual friend), she stated that she understood and that she was fine with that. See, my W has always stated that she wanted a quick, peaceful, easy D. I gently suggested to her that it usually never happens that way. She was certain that would. I offered mediation SEVERAL times and to pay for all of it up until the 11th hour and she never agreed.

We all met shortly before court began and NOTHING was agreeable. They requested that I pay a ridiculous amount of child support after leaving me with the mortgage, pay her attorney�s fees, a minimal visitation schedule, yada yada. Both me and my attorney shook our heads in disbelief that my W was being so disagreeable. It was scary, the pain and hurt is still alive and well and there is nonone to blame but me. HOWEVER, I wasn�t about to be bullied into something wildly unreasonable. To our rejecting their offer, her attorney snarls at us a says �ok, forget it, let�s let the judge decide!�. I simply stated to my attorney��ok, let�s do it�.

As God would have it, we were the last case of 6 on the docket leaving us with an empty court room to hash out all the ugly details. We made our same preliminary motion to continue counseling (we have a session today�today!) to the court that we made in the pretrial meeting�which of course they did not accept. So the hearing moved forward. My W took the stand and reiterated all the details of our relationship that has been outlined in my thread. Then came time for my attorney and our friend to cross examine and she LET, HER, HAVE IT. She pounded her with my text message history of her withdrawing and lack of visitation with the children, her taking large sums of money out of our account, her still attending counseling and yet not being willing to consider reconciliation�you name�she through the kitchen sink at her and the judge was visibly bewildered at times. I�ve never been so nervous for my wife.

I had watery eyes throughout the entire hearing. I brought in the last Christmas 8x10 photo of our family which made it more emotional for me. My attorney later used it on me to invoke emotion as I took the stand and presented in to me again during her questioning�wow. My testimony was the same as been stated in these threads even the admission of the infidelity is now on court record. Oh well, it�s truth but then judge scolded me for it after cross examination. Speaking of which, was pretty weak on her attorneys part. It did as best he could of characterizing me as an abuser by asking how many holes have I punched in the walls several times and could I provide a list of things that I have broken and had to replace. I simply told him 1 hole, and I broke my laptop while watching a football game (my Texas Longhorns were getting hammered by Oklahoma). He made a few more accusations of which were both untrue�stating did I have an affair in Jan 2013, which the answer was NO!. I made it clear, and my attorney re-crossed to make it clear that I disclosed infidelity in Jan 2013, but the occurrences happened in 2003.

So after all of that�the judge declared the following. I would be solely responsible for the mortgage (house for sale). While giving the temporary orders the judge said �I�m going to being very lenient with you sir�. She ordered that I would pay much less in child support than standard. My W would have to reimburse me for the insurance that I already pay that covers her, myself, and our children. She would have return 50% of the funds that was taken out of our account by May 1st. I would not be responsible for her attorney�s fees. Standard visitation with my children starts immediately�as in TODAY!!!! And finally, she ordered that we attend conflict resolution classes. The class is in 12 sessions. So I assume once per week, giving us at minimum 4 weeks to husband/wife interaction.

Though my attorney called it a victory, I don�t. I won�t claim a victory until our marriage and family is restored. But I do believe legal justice was served for now. My W and my attorney hugged and exchanged pleasantries on the way out of court several times.

I want to give my sincere thanks�thanks�thanks to you all of you guys for strongly suggesting I get an attorney. I honestly would not have done so otherwise. You guys literally saved my rear-end!

Let�s see what todays therapy session holds for us�

Therapy went pretty well. My W began by communicating that she was quite bothered that I hired a friend to assassinate her character on the stand. I knew that would be coming considering the outcome. She didn't say much more about it. We then did a communication of hurts and/or issues exercise where we took turns for 15 minutes sharing and listening without responding. For her it was the fact that she needs US to be in agreement that we are headed for divorce. There are no alternatives. When asked to respond, I simply stated I could not agree to divorce but, I understood her position. It was productive overall and something I think we will continue on our own. Our therapist does a good job of navigating the conversation in the direction it should go. After the session, we spent another 20-30 minutes in the lobby talking about the children and their new school. I enjoyed hearing her talk and know that I scored some LB deposits as I listened attentively. As we prepared to leave she leaned toward me for friendly hug and said "I love you"...and looked at me with a reassuring look and said "I really mean that". I echoed what she said. She then says "I think we are going to be ok". I knew she wasn't referring to the marriage but rather as "friends", that she always wanted us to be. I just said "yes, we will be ok". She suspiciously asked "what do you mean by that?" Honestly, I don't think I responded in way that would call my motives into question. But as I walked away I just said I believe in the God of miracles. Smiled, got into my truck, and we parted ways.

Later, I got to pick-up my kiddos from school today. My W met me there and introduced me initially as "my husband". I wondered how long she would keep it up. I then noticed her catching her self and began to say their "dad". Took my kiddos home alone with me for the 1st time in a month and we had a great time. Per court order I drove them back to my W's residence. My oldest went with me. She invited me inside and I sat by as my excited 5yr old played more with his big brother. We made some small talk about getting a realtor to sell our home. Talk a little more about the kiddos and a book that she reads to them. She suggested that I may want to read to them as well...but it was somewhat of an order. The visit felt awkward as one would imagine, seeing all of my furniture there. I made the best of it and left peaceably. I'll pick them up again on tomorrow and they will spend the weekend with me!

Good job.

Did you ever email Dr. H?

Oh yes! I was a caller on 2/20

I remember that. I guess I should have asked, have you sent him another email? Since she filed?

No I haven't since she filed. I wasn't quite sure what could be done or said at this point. I will send another.

Any opinions on tagging my W on Facebook in a picture or two with a messages of admiration or belief in our love as a public display of affection? LB deposit...yes or no?

No. <~~~ my vote (just my opinion)

Why would anyone, that is trying to survive an affair, have a facebook account. Just sayin..

Thanks Pepper. Twice confirmed now.

Distant family updates, tons of family photos there, I am facebook administrator for our church and media director, and my W has full access to all logins (including the church accounts) and history. She "likes" my statuses pretty much everyday. I think I am ok there.

I had a Facebook account and received a lot of support on it from family.
I only have family members as Facebook friends.

She likes your status?

That's a good sign in plan A

She sure does! I have constantly communicated to her my belief that our marriage will be restored. So, I often post a scripture or message that reflects my faith in that. I know she picks up on my posts because they aren't just random scripture/messages, and she often likes them along with several other mutual freinds. A couple of them are aware of our situation.

I am receiving a ton of support from others. Lots of people have been alerted to pray fervently for us thanks to Facebook. I even befriended a soldier currently stationed in Afganistan who is going through a very simliar situaion and we are both enouraging and praying for one another several times thoughout the day. It has been a great medium for me during this tough time.

This is more for lurkers, but Wow is absolutely correct. A WS who has had history of online affairs and is serious about EPs and R should not have a FB account.

hmmm� I will just ask her about it, letting her know I am willing to delete if needed. My guess is she would be more suspicious about my activity if I were not on FB. I also use the "check-in" feature often that notifies her directly about my whereabouts.

ASK your wife BEFORE you tag her photo.
Just saying, avoid independent behaviors.
Assume she would want to know first.

Carry on .....

That would be a good idea. At the very least, you shouldn't have any females on there that aren't family members.

Independent Behavior love-buster <~~~ I think THIS is the most common love buster in many "good" marriages. Also, the love-buster that can lead to secrets & lies & hidden lifestyle choices.

Yep, I need to pick LB's and start reading again.

Thanks for this Pepper, I have been tagging her in recent pics of our children without even 2nd guessing.

You're welcome DNT. Your family is in my prayers.

Just curious what you thought of this since you didn't comment on it or Jedi's comment that he only had female family members giving him support also...

I've been sputtering with the process of removing nonfamily females over the course of a few weeks now. I began by removing those that were active in my feed. With everything going on I have yet to go into my list and remove the less active non-family female friends. I plan to finish the job of clean-up TONIGHT!

I would definitely ask your BW about FB, how she feel and how she feels about it. DO NOT tag her in any more pictures without her consent.

This would also be a good way to communicate with her and deposit LB's while showing her that you are going to check with her on everything you do. It is also good practice for you!!!

Get rid of any females that are not family...this should have been done a long time ago.

My H originally told me he was fine with my FB page so I kept it even though he got rid of his right away. I didn't think anything of it. I got rid of just about everyone except family and very close girl friends. In fact my H put mine on his phone and I honestly felt like he was on it more than I was.

One night however he expressed to me that the fact that I had an FB account really bothered him and made him feel unsafe. I had no clue!!! I also completely got rid of it the next day.

Sometimes you have to hit rock bottom to restart and make things better. Keep doing what you are doing and make sure you read and reread Dr. H's books (I learn something new every time).

I have hope for you no matter what happens I feel you will have a new respect for your wife, family and children.

Absolutely get rid of non family members.
My wife's affair started on Facebook.
I am not a fan of it; the company doesn't have a feature for a joint account.

I use it to post pics of my kids for relatives (especially my parents and siblings) to see.

Been a while since I checked in... I am proud to say that I deleted my Facebook account. I didn't even bother discussing with my BS. I began to read too much into the posts the she "liked" regarding marriage. Many of them communicated things that were a problem in our marriage. She "liked" a couple of posts that resembled hope, but more of the former than latter. I must say that it is very "freeing". We have began attending our court ordered Parallel Parenting and Conflict Resolution classes. Today will be 2 of 12 ordered classes. I must say that it feels like DEATH sitting in a room full of couples that have already divorced and people who have been going through the process for years. The instructor ironically is a very good licensed and marital therapist. I spoke with her over the phone briefly after our first session about seeking counseling in addition to our class. She indicated that we would have an opportunity to address the marriage as part of the regular curriculum, but informed me that I be realistic about the expectations. I understand, but I also have to be realistic about my expectations in God restoring our marriage. Keep me lifted in your prayers that the stone is removed from wife's heart in the midst of all of this.

Please describe your plan A activity daily here

Thanks Jedi - will do! I could really use some guidance.

Guess I will start with yesterday. We had class 3 of 12 of our court ordered Parallel Parenting and Conflict Resolution. Earlier in the morning I emailed a link to a song both she and I like to say I was thinking of her and love her. There was no response. There hasn't been any response to any subtle expressions of love. After class I took a step back by committing a LB. I asked if we could talk later. She responded "what about?" as if she wasn't interested in anything I have to say unless it's of critical matter...such giving my 5 yr old a hair cut for his kindergarten graduation on Thurs. Mind you my oldest, whom she left hanging graduates from HS on Saturday. Lots of family will be in town and learning of "new" relationship status. Any who I felt her defensiveness was unwarranted. We'd had a good week with pleasant exchanges and so forth. I mentioned that we still should talk and we must have a sense of relationship, because after all that is what is being taught to us in the class. She dug in deeper and stated she didn't need anther "class from me". I took a deep breather, shook my head, looked into her eye and said "this is just wrong". Something is not right about not even wanting to discuss the many upcoming things and business to consider. Our house is under contract to be sold (praise God for that miracle!) In "talking" about my displeasure with my needing to have a critical matter in order for us to talk, I caught myself becoming agitated. I know she was agitated as well. I implied that I felt that she was avoiding me. She stated in so many words that she was and that's her choice. I agreed! At that point I simply calmed myself...said ok, hopefully later we can talk and got in my truck and left in whatever peace there was to retain. Earlier this morning I sent a text saying that I was sorry for our exchange on last night... I told her I sensed she'd had a long day and stressful day and that I was sorry if I added to the stress. I end with saying "let me know if I can do anything to help, love you". As usual no response.

I will check back in later as I may get around to giving my DS a haircut. If so, I will either go to her place or she'll come to my place. BTW - we live virtually 3 blocks from one another...and I like that

Question: How do I receive email notifications that someone has posted in this thread?

Oh I suppose I can mention the things that I have done in the past few days. I delivered some bedroom furniture to her that matches part of set we owned. She was happy about that. I also took our deep freezer to her place and cleaned her garage to place it nicely. She liked that as well. I ordered one of our favorite movies on DVD from Amazon and she was happy when she got it. She was anxious to watch it but did not have a functional DVD player. I gave her one of the extra Blu-ray players that was moved from our house. she was happy about that because it also allowed her to exercise on Saturday morning. I could tell her countenance was different having exercised. She was more lively and very cordial and open toward me. She even put her fingers in my hair to see if I had a couple of gray hairs. That made my month!!! The DVD business was Fri and Sat. The furniture stuff happened on Sunday. Then Monday happened!

Well now Tuesday happened. My wife and I and actually got into a "debate" about my beleiving in reconciliation for us. At the end of our 10 minute sharing exercise which I felt was pretty good...she continued to talk as I was trying to end the conversation...as I knew the more we talk the higher likely the conversation would go south...and boy did it! Near what I thought was the end of our phone call my says "Can I ask a favor?" I hesitated for a while and replied with a reluctant "Okaay". I knew where this was going. She starts by saying it bothers me when I hear you mention something that insuates that we will reconcile and I would like for you....

I cut her off (baaad! I know... still a habit that must be broken) I gone on to say for the next 15-20 minutes how I beleive what I beleive and nothing is going to change that. I then pull out my gamet of scripture by memory that supports any and everything I beleive and how I can not NOT do what I know God is calling me to do. I know... bad idea all around. I realized it after the fact that I was not listening and trying to force my beleifs on her. It didn't end well. She reminded me of all the wrong I done a couple of times when I attempted to talk about reestablishing the sanctity of our marriage. She finally said ouy days are numbered and that she just doesn't want to be with me. Hurt like hell I tell ya. I immediatly called a good friend of mine fr encoragement, but he confirmed what I knew happened and that was take a few steps backward. I even mentioned to her that perhaps someone or something else has her attention. She didn't confirm either was other than saying "I wish, perhaps someone decent would come along, but I have too much baggage". Ouuuch. Heeelp. SOS... What happened here?!

Anyone... I am thinking of sending this email after last night's ordeal:

Thanks again for being a container for me, I will continue to be there for you. Yes� I will discontinue expressions of what I believe if it bothers you and drives you further away. I do not want to do that.

Talk to you later

Ok? Need rewording? Not said at all?

WOw, DNT, you are really stepping in it here!! You are so focused on what you want that you are driving right over her and making huge lovebusters. She has a right to her feelings about reconciliation and she has a right to be respected whether you agree or not.

A big part of her fear, no doubt, is that you don't respect her feelings. You cheated on her and you have the nerve to lecture her and quote scripture?? Are you kidding me, dude?? You weren't flinging around scripture when you were having affairs. That is exactly how I would feel if you told me what you said to her.

Your marriage cannot afford such lovebusters at this time. You are on life support.

When she asks you to stop talking about reconciliation what would be so hard about saying "ok, I will stop that." Would that be so hard? Showing respect for her feelings is of utmost importance right now.

The time to play the scripture card was when you were committing adultery. Somehow I doubt you were quoting scripture when you were taking your pants off with hoes. So your use of it now is very hypocritical.

If you believe in reconciliation, you should stop taking such anti-reconciliation steps like having these kinds of discussions. They are MAJOR love bank withdrawals.

By the way, my parents used to lecture us about what they believed God wanted them to do. By that, they meant that God wanted them to spew their disrespect to us (under the guise of "warning" and "helping" us), and we were apparently obligated to listen. This kind of religion (that creates an obligation in someone else) is NASTY DISRESPECTFUL, and frankly, I'd say when you start throwing your faith around like this, you are applying God's name in vain.

Jesus the Son of God gave betrayed spouses the right NOT to reconcile. God would not give you a conflicting message that takes away the rights His Son expressed for your wife. So please don't lie about what God says and does. Talk about major pain for your wife!

I knew I blew it. I won't go down that road again. As for me quoting scripture 10 years ago "while taking off my pants", I didn't want to have anything to do with scripture during that period of my life. But.. point taken. Still hypocritical.

Do I still relay this message or not? "I will discontinue expressions of what I believe if it bothers you and drives you further away. I do not want to do that." Adding - You have a right to feel the way you do. I have to do a better job of respecting your feelings and I am sorry for not doing so last night.

No, just drop it entirely. It will make love bank withdrawals to remind her of the unpleasant experience.

Have you read Dr. Harley's article about the friends and enemies of good conversation? This is what you need to focus on.

Thanks Markos. I read it some time ago. Pulling it up again right now.

Family dinner two nights in a row. No LB's. When I call her she answers the phone with exuberance! She has been freely sharing pics and info related to our children. My oldest graduates from HS today (Saturday). We have lots of family in town so it's a little odd not being in our home and some learning that we have separate residences. But with the peaceful interactions that have occurred the last couple of days I'm not worried about what extended family thinks. Hope this positive momentum can be sustained.

With all that said... I have suspicion that someone else has her attention. She never denied it when I brought it up during my recent rant. She has been very secretive about her whereabouts since separating. She keeps a very tight lock on her phone when I am around and I always notice her vigorously texting when I walk away and then she slips the phone back into her "secure" place quickly. Before I exited FB I noticed her liking posts that eluded to "guarding your heart", "single moms introducing new relationships to children", and the like. Oh, and she changed her FB password shortly after seperation... What gives?

She probably is having an affair.
It's very possible.
All you can do is Plan A; if you become aware of an affair expos� it but otherwise you need to focus on plan A

Can you afford a PI to find out if she's seeing someone?

Do you have access to check her phone records?

DNT,

I have got a lot to say to you. So much I don't even know where to begin. I will start by saying I know EXACTLY where you are right now. For a long time I did the same thing you are doing. I also understand why you are doing it.

You know in your heart that you have changed are continuing to change and know how to be the husband you should have been years ago in your marriage. You are trying to force this feeling on your wife.

The thing is, that even though you know you have changed, she is not convinced (and possibly never will be). You however are so sure of everything now that you are trying to force this onto your wife. I did the same exact thing with my H. I however would cry and beg and throw a bit of temper tantrum to try to get him to understand that I was a changed person.

The problem with this is that we can control our actions but we can't control the actions of our spouses. Especially since our original actions, broke them. It took me a long time to figure this out.

I wanted my H home so bad that i begged him to come home and he reluctantly did. From February to May of last year he was at home but he had already checked out. I was so happy that he was here that I ignored that he was dying inside and still had his wall up so high.

It was mothers day last year when he was finally honest with me and told me he was miserable that he had not forgiven me and did not think that we were going to workout. Again, I cried I asked him if he did not see a change in me. He said he did but was convinced it was only a matter of time before I hurt him again.

Something clicked in me that day. I can't even explain it but it was almost like I had clarity on the situation. That it was no longer in my hands and that it might be best if I let my H go rather than to force him to be miserable with me.

This again was in May. I told him if he wanted to go he could and I understood. He however stayed the entire summer and seemed to get better. He actually started reading on MB (never posted) we talked ALOT about people on here, situations, POJO (kind-of a running inside joke between us).

In September however he once again said he was dying inside and everything was a trigger to him. This time I was ready mentally to officially let him go. Because I had figured out back in May that it was not my decision it was his. That forcing him to stay for me or the kids was not fair and it was what I wanted. If he did not want to stay and could not live with my actions then he should leave.

I told him this in almost the same manner that I am telling you now. We both cried, it was so hard (one of the hardest things I did in my life) but it was the right thing to do.

He left....and an hour later he came back and was ready to tear down the wall and rebuild our life together. It has been different ever since.

Now I know that every story is different and I do hope yours has a happy ending. The point of my story is not the ending but my realization as to what was best for my H rather than what I really wanted. Again, I know it is frustrating because you are finally working on yourself and MB is the best way to do that. You have had your moment of clarity but you have to allow your wife to find hers...and she might never get there...you have to accept that.


Now as far as the other situation goes...the possible affair. This also took place with my H. In his mind it was justified because we were separated (although we were not when he started the affair). I did start snooping and looked at his phone records. This is how I figured it out. I could not get access to his text but the phone numbers, minutes he talked to people, etc...were all there for me to see.

When I had enough evidence, I called him out on it. He told me that he never even would have considered having an affair if I did not have one first. He also justified it by saying that we were done, he moved out and he was doing nothing wrong. My defense was that if he was doing nothing wrong then why was he keeping it a secret?

I exposed it to everyone that did not already know (his parents and brothers knew and a couple of close friends). I also told him that we were still married whether he moved out or not. That if he wanted to be with someone else that was fine but not until the divorce papers were filled.

BTW, just to give you a timeline and show you that if your wife is having an affair then she will not want to get back with you.

November 18 2011 - My affair is exposed. H kicks me out for two weeks but ask me to come home the beginning of December.

December - H wants to work on marriage. Sign up with marriage counselor. Buy SSA. He reads it first then I read it.

December 12 - H goes out to bar with buddy, meets OW. Gives her is card (sold insurance at the time). Trying to sell her insurance only. She calls him on Monday...the affair has begun!!

The rest of December - H is distant but I am so blinded by the fact that we are "working things out" that I don't really notice. We go on a family trip the day after Christmas (I ride down with my sister). H insists on coming down the next day because of work. I am a little concerned but excited because he is being extremely affectionate (little did I know that he was plotting to stay the evening with her...bleahh)


January 1, 2012 - The night we get back home, H sits me down and tells me we are done, that he is leaving and he was just pretending to be happy for the kids for Christmas. He leaves the next day, I am devastated, broken hearted, ashamed, angry, etc... but not suspicious of an affair. I did ask him point blank about someone else and he did the same thing your wife did. He did not tell me directly that there was no one else but he did say that he was talking to someone and nothing had happened (lie).

January 8th - I find MB (miracle) and post my story hoping for sympathy. Instead i got "attacked" or at least that his how I felt at the time. I now know that it was the greatest attack of my life!!!

January 10th (H's Birthday and the day I decided to give him my letter of EP's) Something is off. He leaves our daughters 5th grade concert to "go out to dinner" with his dad and brother. This is very out of character for him. The next day I listen to his voicemail on his phone and find out he went to a concert (still did not know it was with OW).

January 14th - My 15 year old son suspects something is not right. Talks to me about my H guarding his phone, turning it off at night and yelling at him when he tried to look something up on it. He encourages me to check the phone records. This is when I found out he was talking ALOT to another women (called her number(s) and figured it out).


What goes around comes around, came around and smacked me right in the face. And even though I had already had two affairs of my own, being smacked with my own reality really hurt!!!

We really don't bring it up anymore but H did want to blame his A solely on me at the time. He has since changed his tune. DNT, we might have not survived this if I had not found MB. I really hope your wife is NOT having an affair but I would not be surprised if she was. Either way, you will survive this. And even if you are the reason she turned to someone else, you can't be used as an excuse and justification for her choice and behavior.

Keep your eyes open, keep posting on here for advice no matter which direction life takes you. That is what we are here for.

sorry I wrote you a book.

fifteen (almost sixteen)

Nice post fifteenyears.

I may be in a position to hire a PI once our house is sold. I received a cash offer and should have a contract in place soon. I don�t have access to her records. She switched to a different carrier. But� Dang it! Dang it! Kicking myself at the moment... We had my son's graduation dinner today at our church family center. I sat next to my wife and she left the table to mingle and talk to others throughout the room for while...she left her cell phone right there on the table and I just kept glancing at it, but never bothered to pick it up and examine. Perhaps I may get another opportunity later, but not like today's.

Wow fifteenyears... just wow. I am hoping my story takes a similar track as yours. I think I am reaching my "letting go" point. I appreciate you taking the time to share and I find our situations have many parallels. You are right, I see the light and many errors in my ways and have figured out how to begin to be a MUCH better husband, father, and most importantly...a friend to her. But, you are right. I am trying to force the issue and MAKE her see the light. Another thing I don't think I've mentioned is that for the first time I have taken a serious stand to address my bouts with viewing pornography. It has been a battle for me since I was 12 years old. I have discovered this to be a primary issue of marital issues over the years - particularly a trigger for my infidelity. The control, guilt, shame, and the like were all byproducts of my never being able (or willing) to be free from my addiction. I finally defeated that demon in November of last year. I now have several accountability (my wife gets an internet report), prayer partners, internet filters, and a real desire to never want play in that fire again. It used to be my "safe place", but no longer.

I will definitely keep an eye out. I think many of the signs of an EA have been there since before she left. On of our very close friends has said she "doubts very seriously that she is even thinking of someone else, being in so much pain". I know better having listened to Dr. Harley state she is fertile for an affair. I know MB will be the best place I garner advice and wisdom to see me through all of this. But I understand that I must allow my BW to make that decision on her own. But I believe prayer works and I plan to war like nobody's business in my prayer time. There many others in our circle who are praying the same thing.

I do wish you the best no matter what path your marriage goes in. I can tell you when you do truly "let go" you do feel better and feel a sense of relief almost. Hard to describe but I know that in September if Mr. 15 would have left, I would have been able to deal with it. I would have known and felt that I did all I could do rather than feeling defeated.

Good job with the porn. I know that that is a hard demon to conquer. My father was and still is addicted to porn. He thinks no one knows but my entire family has been affected by it one way or another. My mom has always taken a blind eye to it and unfortunately my sister was accidentally exposed to it at a very young age.

After no communication on Sunday. �The W and kiddos spent most of Memorial day at my place. I BBQ'd and the W and I spent about 30/45 minutes talking over dinner. Mostly about family, church, friends, etc. Things went pretty will for the most part. We laughed and shared opinions without any LB's or enemies of good conversation. Then she brought up my dad and how he "seemed ok". This has been a contentious topic because my W has wanted me and/or my mother to inform him about our separation. My W took it upon herself to inform my mother...she and particularly my dad have not been in the best health condition. My mother was a bit rattled when she learned what happened and her immediate response was "they is no way I am going to tell your dad". I simply said that I know she wouldn't. I communicated this to my W a while back in a conversation about family boundaries. Well this weekend it became apparent to him what the situation is. But, THAT's the way it should be as it relates to him. He needs to SEE that everything is ok with me, because he knows that if I am ok then everything else will be ok. Despite my shortcomings as a husband, my dad knows that I have always taken care of things with him and the family.

This is what I attempted to communicate to my W, but she didn't receive my message as intended. I simply stated that every relationship is different and my dad and I need not talk about our marital relationship. At the end of the day, he just wants to know that we are "ok". She continued to pound me into being someone who doesn't communicate and I should not do that with my DS (her SS)...if he wants to talk, then we should talk...and on and on. It became a confusing back and forth about whose point was what...and who brought up my son...and yada yada. She accused me (the logical one) of "being all over the place" and we both agreed that we should stop talking. I ended it by restating that believe my dad was ok because he SAW that I was ok.

I HATE that our conversations take these turns. I knew at some point she would bring up my dad and I knew where it would go. We were able to change the subject a bit but I could tell she was a little �spent� after that part of our discussion and she began to hint to the kiddos that it was time to go. I fixed her a to-go plate. She was happy about the food and thanked me for making dinner. She is extremely intelligent and the sweetest person in the world� I know and everyone else knows it. But, I can tell when she is calculatingly cold! I can hear it in her �thank you�s��I heard it today.

She called me a few moments ago to remind me of a conversation she had with a mother one of my son�s friends at the graduation dinner regarding college vs. Air Force. It was pleasant, but more matter-of-fact than anything else. I suppose the fact we more freely interacting is progress, but there always seems to be a hiccup somehow. How do I escape the continuous topics and discussions? Is this just part of the process?

And now another intense conversation has now ensued. My W sends me a text asking if she could talk and I just listen only. I responded yes. I knew this wouldn't be good. As she calls she begins to mention the conversation we had earlier about my dad. Somehow she ties that conversation and a conversation I had with her mother together. A few weeks ago I disclosed to her mom (and have intentions to do the same with her dad) about my indiscretions. I also told my MIL about some of my own personal struggles that I have resolved... particularly anger/addictions. Well my wife did not appreciate any of that. Was I wrong? She says that her mom didn't want or needed to know anything about why we were separated. My intent was to be honest and apologize for letting my in-laws down. But tonight my W goes on a long rant about how crazy I am and begins to chastise me about a number of other things. I sat idle and took it. She then asked me if I really thought I was "right" in talking with her mother. I told her I was confessing my sins in hope of forgiveness and letting them know I intended to be a better father and husband to their daughter if given the chance. I apologized to my W for the hurt I caused both her and her mom. I then addressed her repeatedly calling me crazy. I wasn't disrespectful, but I did ask some probing questions that she could not answer. I ended the conversation by stating that I didn't believe she meant to condemn me but I understand that she is hurting and that I also believe there is a spiritual element to our butting heads. She was very silent during most of what I had to say...and our good night was actually pleasant. I feel as thought I am dodging fiery darts from her. That was rough!

DNT,

From my own personal experience there is a very fine line when involving in-laws in your marriage. Yes, I know that the affair should be exposed to them but that is where it should end. While they should know what is going on, getting them too involved in you and your wife's business can be dangerous and hurtful to your marriage (no matter what state it is in). Both my H and I know this from pulling our own parents into our struggle and it backfired on both sides.

Make sure again your intentions are going? Were you really telling you MIL to confess your sins? Or were you hoping for an ally in talking your wife back into your arms? I am not saying it was one over the other (maybe even a little of both).

Just make sure your actions are not just reactions to your current situation (a lot easier said than done...believe me I know).

It is good that you listened intently to your what your wife had to say. I know it is hard (it especially was for me because I am usually the talker) but try to do it and make it a habit.

XVY

After thinking back on it, it was certainly a little bit of both. She sees throught it as well and chalks it up as another manipulation attempt by me.

This is very hard, but I am learning to recognize when I become anxious and react out of fear.

The hardest part of this was listening to someone who sounds nothing like the wife I know. It just indicates how deep the pain reaches for her.

I now have some understanding of what it feels like to walk on eggshells. At this present moment I have no desire to have a converstation or any communication with my wife for fear of where it could go. But I suppose not communicating wouldn't exactly help things move along, now would it?

Getting tested in the area of discipline often lately. I feel as though I pass most of the time. However, when find myself failing there is not as much damage as there could be in times past. I'm thankful for that as I can't afford to push my W any further away. It really helps to have good male friends that I can call or text to reassure me that I remain focused.

On today my DS (5 yrs) told me something that hurt me to the bone. He said I really wish that we could all be in our old house because it was fun...but mommy took us away. I tearing up now as I type this. I sooo wanted to pick-up the phone at that moments (and moments since) and let my W know what he said and how we need to make it right! But I didn't...I sucked up my tears, hugged my son a little tighter and went on about enjoying the few hours remaining during my visitation schedule with our babies.

I took my DS and DD back to my W's place. She seemed somewhat upbeat. She asked how I was doing....felt sincere. She gave me back disc 1 of 5 of The Bible Series that I loaned her. I went back around the corner to get the other discs for her and gave her our "nicer" waste basket from our old home. She appreciated that. My DS was very clingy and I lingered around for a moment then I heard her say "Okaay" ...as in my time is up. I took the hint and made my way out the door.

Closing on house Thursday. We have to bring a good amount of cash to closing. I don't beleive my W has $ other than borrowing. I mentioned that I would send her half the $ needed to close and she could wire or bring cashier's check. Again I don't think she has $ because sent me a text saying we need to talk about the closing..and she thought we were receiving a break on the agent's commission. The agent acutally told me this and has since went back on his word. No biggie in my opinion...just want to cut losses and get it sold (UNLESS GOD WORKS A MIRACLE THAT WE SHOULD RETURN...I'M FOR THAT!) Question is...do I scrape up the money (credit cards, unsecured loans, fork over some of my extra safety cash (still not enough to cover)...does my assuming she will come up with 1/2 the funds cause LB withdrawals? I wanted to lease out the house. She said no. Could have easily been a source of income. What to do?

Well... the closing went as planned. My W brought have the money to cover closing costs. Before went went to the meeting room to sign docs, she showed me a greeting card her dad sent her saying thank you for all her support and encouragement. It was awesome. She was quite emotional in a good way. As we were completing the signature process I happened to glance at her left hand...and low and behold...SHE WAS WEARING HER 10 YEAR ANNIVERSARY BAND!!...on her RING FINGER! I spoke to my attorney the day before to update on the home sale. She advised that she has recently spoken with my W's attorney and there has been no contact whatsoever. Both my W's attorney and mine agreed they wanted to remain neutral and make no contact to allow us to potentially work things out. It's almost as if they are both rooting for us. Strange...but welcomed. I am certainly sensing her heart softening a bit. She sends texts often with pics of the kiddos at school and at home. She's more open to my coming and going to and from her place to run errands outside the normal scope of child visitation. No negative converation since I last reported a week or two ago. I've peeked at her FB account through my church's member page and noticed she is "liking" a WHOLE lot of PRO-marriage posts. *deep sigh* ...there seems to be life. Staying the course!

Hey that's good news! Seems as though your plan A is getting through to her. Maybe you might want to gift her Surviving an Affair now?

A very wise woman (Pepperband) gave me the advice below about 17 pages into my original post. Today after reading your last post I felt compelled to look back at the advice and share it with you. It is about patience vs. perseverance.

I know you talk a lot about learning to be patient (I did as well). Pep, gave me this advice exactly when I needed it and I think now is the time that you need it.

"Patience is the ability to tolerate delay. It seems pretty passive. Waiting."

"How about looking at your perseverance instead of patience?
Perseverance is the continuation on a course of action even in the face of difficulty. Determination of follow through. When you give yourself something to work on, I think working on an action is better than working on waiting."


I hope it helps you as much as it helped me

Thanks BetrayedP - Actually, I am somewhat hesitant about bringing up any MB materials. She knows about them all. We began to read SA together before the separation. She'd checked out by that point. I just don't want to do anything to hurt momentum. I think she would receive it as "here we go again, he's trying to manipulate me into doing things his way". I think there needs to be a little more progress until I introduce SA. Perhaps it's a bit of paranoia on my part.

Yes, Pepperband had injected enough wisdom in this thread to last quite a while. She actually told me a few pages back instead of practicing patience to be use this time to learn discipline(aka...grow up, stop whining, and acting like a spoiled, lazy little boy). She insisted that patience is waaay to passive for me. I think perseverance is moreso what I have been doing the last couple of weeks. Quite honestly, I have been close to mute as it relates to my W. It seems this has worked more effectively than any word I have spoken to date. Therefore, I almost prefer to continue to say nothing and allow her all the space and time she needs. I've been keeping myself busy fellowshipping with a couple new male friends and my old circle of buddies. I continue to work out, decorating my new place has been cool. And of course, I love spending time with our babies. Things have been pleasant and peaceful for me. It feels as though we both needed this separation to work on ourselves, reboot, and re-approach life. I have some other personal goals in mind as well that will require POJA. It involves prolonged travel for work. I know this is a NO-NO in the MB world. But, it may be something we enthusiastically agree to pursue because the additional pay will allow me to pay for a Master's degree that she has yet to complete. Stay tuned!

Setback today. After parent teacher conference this morning (wearing no ring) I tried to escape what felt was an akward meeting. I didn't say much of anything during. My W ask me what I thought about it and simply replied that I need to think and pray on it. She then insisted that I at least tell her my initial thoughts. I began to explain how I felt like our DS was acting out in response to our seperation. I said I felt we need to be on the same page about the details of our discpline and messages he is receiving and make sure we have a safe enviroment for him. She interjected that there is no "we" or "us" so I don't know what you mean. This seemed to come out of nowhere. I dropped my jaws and with a confused "huh"? she then goes on about how I need to understand where we are headed and same old rants that I've heard time and again. She asks the age old question "Don't you understand we are going through a divorce?" I replied sorry, I am not going through a divorce. She asks so what are you doing? I calmly and stated..."well, I am beleiving God for the restoration of our family". That sent her into a tailspin, saying this is about our son and I am in a totally different place and then she gets into her car, stating that she didn't want to talk (THAT WAS MY WHOLE POINT OF SAYING I WILL THINK ON IT AND PRAY...TO AVOID TALKING!!) I sent her a text saying such. At that moment I was tempted to take off my ring but couldn't bring myself to do it. I reached out to a couple of brothers for pryaer. They repsonded and a couple actually called to pray with me...(one I didn't text...he just called unpromtped). Though I feel it was a test of my faith (de ja vu..as I type this) it was very unnerving considering what I thought was progress. Not sure what is to come next.

Dear freinds I am releasing her. Because I love her I disclosed my transgressions. And now, I love her enough that I must give her what she is asking for. However, I do so with the attitude of hope. Pray that God keeps me in peace as I go through the process.

To investigate or not? That is the question. My oldest son lost his phone and on today I asked my wife if I could have back the IPhone she no longer uses. This phone was originally my phone and she received another Iphone when she transfered her line to a different carrier. (clue #1) Her reponse was at first silence...then no... no... I can't do that. Natually I ask "why is that?" She said "I have things on there...no... I can't". I go through some logical solutions such as syncing the phone, clearing it, and transfering the info to her new IPhone. She simply responds...well I don't know. I haven't synced it yet. I say ok, if you need help with syncing let me know... it would be very helpful as I don't want to pay $ for a new phone from ATT, on top the $250 cancellation fee I already paid... yada, yada... Obviously her need to conceal some form of "information" raises my suspicion to a new level. I am starting to piece some behaviors together from months ago thay may indicate her heart being elsewhere. I have been told she is also avoiding talking to very good friends of ours who are "reaching out" to see how we are doing. These are wives of couples we have loved and respected.

Do I have a right to investigate? Is it worth the effort? She is deadset on D...we have a meeting about mediation with a counselor on Monday. Any suggestions?

She's still your wife and so why wouldn't you have the right? If you don't investigate would you always "wonder"?

Thanks brainhurts. I guess you are right. I am the original wayward, so I thought my motives would be in question. But I suppose 2 wrongs don't make a right in any case. Well, investigating I go...

With my suspicions that her potential EA (PA doubted) is occurring during business hours should I begin with her boss? I am sure she is aware of our separation. I have contact information for her I have her boss' mobile phone and email. She is a very close friend (sorority sister) who , confidant, and mentor to her. She and her husband often attended outings with us. I don't believe her boss would be aiding her in any indiscretions. I could potentially ask if she offer any advice or be on alert for the sake of our family. I just do not know how the message should be communicated.

Before any exposure, you need to get proof of the affair. Can you do this?

I agree, DNT. You need to get evidence first.

I'm not in any position to expose as I have no proof. I am looking for proof at this stage of the game. I believe the proof would be found in the phone texts and work emails. Perhaps she has another personal email established as well. I still have access to her personal hotmail account. She left her iPad when she moved out and the email account is still active. On Thursday she sent an email to herself of a "headshot" only pic. She's "LIKING" a lot of singles posts on FB. She changed her password on FB. I could actually change it using the lost password feature since I still have access the hotmail account. Of course that would alarm and alert her that someone is tampering with her account (ME!!) and that I am snooping.

She has been iron clad secretive for several months now. It's going to be quite a challenge.

It just occurred to me... she could also be reading this forum. I bought a copy of SA that was delivered on Tueday. She called me around the time I know she goes to the mailbox. She did the same thing when I ordered one of our favorite movies when it arrived. She knows I believe in the MB program and she could be tipped off if she hasn't already been

I am confused. On June 13, 2013 you posted the following, "Dear freinds I am releasing her. Because I love her I disclosed my transgressions. And now, I love her enough that I must give her what she is asking for. However, I do so with the attitude of hope. Pray that God keeps me in peace as I go through the process."

As I am a BS also at the point of "letting go," I do not see why you would even want to investigate your W, let alone hire a PI at this time. What would be the point? You are not in reconciliation, you are in the process of a D. I fully empathize with you that you would prefer to be in an R than a D, but your posts indicate that your wife currently wants a divorce. Are you in Plan B or Plan A at this time? It looks like you are following that destructive path of being a little in both. Although truth be told, I have been in and out of both for the past 14 months and I know it is basically no strategy. Anyway, since you are definitely separated from your W and therefore have successfully completed what I find to be the most difficult part of Plan B, please consider having no contact whatsoever with your W, except STRICTLY as it pertains to the children, unless and until she comes back and requests that you two work things out. IMHO, that is what it means to let go, so no need for PIs or investigations.
Best of luck!

This is pretty much where I am. I didn't pursue investigating much further. We have attended mediation to work out a parenting plan and we have pre-trial court in the AM, which I expect to finalize the financial stuff. I was in Plan A as I was reading into the mixed messages reflected on her "pro-marriage" FB activity. It was just that...mixed messages. Into Plan B I go.

Why would you go into Plan B?

To minimize the initial pain of the divorce. Should I not?

I do not think that would be Dr Harley's advice to you at all if you would still like to win your W back.

Susie is right - Dr. Harley usually suggests that a man pull out all the stops to get his marriage back. If it's going to be painful, he often recommends antidepressants.

Dr. Harley specifically told me to Plan A until divorce then Plan B. Plan A marathon is usually recommended for men because women have too many health risks from the stress of it.

Well...wow! Ok. I really appreciate the feedback. I certainly would like to win her back. We are scheduled for trial in September to my dismay...we spent hours and a few hundred dollars last week mediating a child visitation plan and her attorney decided to undo what we agreed to on the day of court Monday. He's a slimeball and the judge was NOT happy with either of them. This guy is blatantly taking advantage of her. I was intending to have a discussion with her within the next 24-48 hours to offer mediation in order settle as amicably as possible. I was going to suggest we terminate our attorneys and move forward outside of a nasty court battle. That's what she last asked for and I wanted to honor her wishes.

So is this a discussion that should occur in hopes of executing Plan A? Or do I just ride this thing out until September and go full on Plan A in hopes she changes her mind and heart?

DNT,

Been catching up on your page. First of all I would put the statement above on hold until the D papers are signed. Until you and your wife are Divorced IMPO I think you should keep fighting for her.

Your affair was bad and if she wants to divorce you because of it then she has the right. She does not have the right to push for divorce to justify her own affair. I am not saying this is the case but with the clues that you have already uncovered it may be the true motivation behind her push for divorce.

Even if you guys are separated, if she is involved with someone else, it is not right, especially for your children. I encourage you to investigate and continue to the bitter end to fight for your wife even if she does not want you to. Once you are divorced then you can repeat the statement below and continue to work on you.

Something else that bothered me. In your post about the parent teacher conference you stated that your wife said there is no "we" or "us" when it comes to your children. Whether you guys are together or not, there should always be a "we" when raising your children.

Very often a wife will stay with a husband through all kinds of neglect and abuse and even affairs, and will only leave when she has somewhere else to go, i.e., an affair of her own.

The tide seems to have turned a bit. My W has traveled out of town to attend funerals of very close friends and relatives 3 of the last 4 weekends so I have spent quite a bit of time with our children. As she returned from the last funeral on Sunday our DS (5) was really struggling with allergies and I actually had to call paramedics out for a breathing treatment. I did not have his nebulizer due to the shuffle of our moving out of the home. It was a scary, fun (he says), emotional, bonding experience for he and I. Not that we weren't already close but he really became attached after this experience. My W returned a couple hours later from her trip and come directly to my place to render another breathing treatment. I believe she noticed his behavior toward me as well. Long story short...she spent most the evening at my place with our kiddos. We talked about the funeral, her family, God moving in their lives. I told her about a super men's conference that I attended that same weekend. I attended with the husband of very good friends ours while his wife kept our kiddos. She was very open to my sharing and moved by some the stories, messages, and testimonies that I experienced there. We had family dinner together for the first time in months...which was great! (I'm a pretty good cook:)After she left we talked a little more over the phone about the children. She called back a 3rd time and we did Factime on our Iphones before the kids went to bed.

The following day(Monday) she texts me to let me know the time of our DS doctor's appointment. I replied "see you there" to which she said "ok". The appointment was peaceful and our DS was bouncing off the walls as I knew he was happy we were both there as a family. He was still very clingy to me and I could sense her noticing again. It was raining and I sprinted to my car to get the umbrella and walked them both out. I told DS that I had to "get mommy in the car first". He (and W) said..."yes, ladies first". She gave a "grateful" thank you as she had throughout the weekend for taking care of things and them. Our Monday court-ordered conflict resolution class was peaceful and productive. Members in the class and most importantly the therapist have repeatedly expressed the positive changes they�ve seen in me. It�s almost as if they are fighting the battle for me. After class my W texted and had our DS to call me to tell me he was feeling better. Beyond that she�s been sending more and more pics of them and being more open to communication in general. Nothing about �us� understandably.

On yesterday she calls around 7pm to say that our DS was �asking for me�. He wanted to come to daddy�s place. I said ok. We live only 2 blocks apart so I jump in my truck to go pick him up. He was so anxious to go with me. As we begin to leave our DD (2 ys, next month) began to be upset and began reaching for me as well. My W couldn�t refuse�and both my DS and DD came along and spent an hour or so at my place. My DS was very upset that he had to go back and was crying and clingy as I left from mommy�s place. She texted again this morning with pics of them sleeping all over her bed and a funny captions �the sacrifice of mommy� and �where was I supposed to sleep &#61514;�
Beginning of the turn around?

Doing this! I am of the belief that she may have not fully engaged in an EA and certainly not a PA, but I think she was/is completely open to doing so. Perhaps more of the fantasy phase than anything substantive. Just my gut and considering the opinions of those she talks to.

She was REALLY angry this day...with everyone involved, from the school administrator, teacher, and I assume about my not openly "defending" her position. I am 100% convinced that my W suffers from Histrionic and Avoidant Personality Disorder. She avoids conflict at ALL cost and when she feels attacked she flees the situation immediately if she feels there is an "out". Hence my disclosure of infidelity gave her an "out". Should we reconcile, this HPD and APD is an issue that will require intense therapy of both parties.

Oh boy I hope you have never mentioned this diagnosis to your W. This kind of thinking is going to lead you to have DJs with her so I would put this out of your mind. It is possible that your past angry outbursts have led your W to, at least in part, behave this way.

If she ever does decide to R, perhaps write to Dr Harley about your concerns but do NOT ever mention anything about this to her and demand she get intensive therapy.

Susie Q - Nope!... not going to ever mention it to her, and yes, I will not deal with her with MY diagnosis in mind. The fact that I must still love and respect her choices and decisions has nothing to do with what I THINK she suffers with. I have also strongly considered that my behavior caused her to act as such. It sure didn't help.

So my wife is hosting a Girls Night Out (Post-birthday) shindig at a Jazz Restaurant where I took her for her last birthday outing. She doesn't know that I know of it. I saw the even Evite on her email. I'm thinking of having flowers delivered there....ANONOUMSLY. Figure she will either immediately inquire of me and tell me thanks. (she always does) OR she will pretend in front of her invites that they are from me and remain silent...rending another big clue of impropriety. Thoughts?

Do it. Add a poem as well.

I don't have a peace about it. Just want to send a text saying "I love you". But she doesn't want that either. Sad...

Huh? I am confused by this? Did you send the flowers? Are you still investigating a possible A?

Haven't done either. I should right? I think I'm just in a funk. Last night she purchased a book called "From Ex-Wife to Exceptional Life: A Woman's Journey through Divorce". Threw me into a tailspin. I prayed about it and have come to understand it's just part of the test and enemies' attempt to make me give up. She just called me asking if I have tools to trim brush at her place. I offered to help. She says "she thinks she can handle it, just needs the shears". I have a meeting with a counselor in 30 minutes. It's a gentlemen we saw before everything hit the fan. I need some encouragement and perhaps some antidepressants after all.

Just keep trying to meet emotional needs.
She's in withdrawal. She doesn't want flowers or poems.
She wants a trimmer. So talk about it. "I have one but old Charlie at the store said its best to trim in the evening. And the blade needs sharpened. I can stop by te shop and get it sharpened this evening if you like"

Use the opportunity for conversation.

It will get worse before it gets better

"I got a coupon for a cheap oil change in the mail. Do you want it?"

"i saw a flyer for an ice cream party at a local church. I was wondering if you thought the kids might like to go"

"I just found out that LowesHome Improvement Store has a free craft club for kids. It's every other weekend. The kids get a free apron and get to build crafts. Do you think the kids would like that?"

I know how you feel. Just remember, no matter how this ends up turning out, none of your progress will be in vain. You have become a stronger man because of this and will continue to be a better person with or without your wife by your side.

I still wouldn't give up on meeting her ENs and investigating her actions until the D...just my opinion.

Thanks all. I really needed the guidance. The therapy session was all over the place and I was mostly frustrated until the very end. The final words from the counselor was "treat her like a princess". So, THAT's what I'm going to do till the bitter end. On my way to go purchase trimmers and putting the garden hose that she's been asking about for weeks in my truck to deliver this evening. She stated that she'd plan to cut the brush after I picked the kiddos up for weekend visitation. Perhaps I can at least mention it would be fun if "we all" helped mommy cut the brush together. I know our DS5 would LOVE it!!

As for the flowers, I was going to use it as an indirect way to investigate by sending them anonymously. Am I misguided here?

If she doesn't want flowers then I would listen to her and not send them

"do you think the shrubs need mulch underneath? There's a sale at Walmart on mulch. It comes in different colors. It might look good with black mulch"

"do you want me to pick up some gloves too"

Use conversation that she is wiling to do. Build that conversation love bank balance. Build family support love bank balance with the kids.

She never said she didn't want flowers, but I doubt she cares to receive any from me right now. I picked up shears and a new garden hose from Loews. She would want the hose connected, that would give me a few minutes to chat. I normally just pick up the kiddos and take off. I'll offer assistance to help with the yard work and ask about the mulch or anything else she may wants while I'm there. On Fridays we used to do what she calls Triple F (Friday Family Fun). Perhaps I could frame our staying to help as such. I think I can figure out a few things to get her talking without being pushy.

Is there any other way you can investigate for an affair? Can you afford a PI?

I do believe I could afford a PI at this point. However, my first thought about it is...is it worth the investment when everyone she talks to who are close to her have suggested no foul play?...saying she was simply "fed up". I considered getting one of those tracking devices for the vehicle, but I don't think she physically meets with anyone during business hours. As I mentioned earlier...the only way I could see it happening is via another non-work email or text message and which would limit it to only EA if that. There was one occasion where she would mention a guy she kept running into in the parking garage at her job. Those couple of conversations keep coming to mind. I assume he works in the same building. She works in a 15-20 story bank tower housing multiple tenants...so possibilities are endless there. She talks to females a whoooole lot, but I don't think she'd go there.

Interesting that you would mention te conversations with females.
If she is bisexual and having emotional needs met by another woman she can go there.

I wouldn't hire a PI. I don't see anything productive from it.
You are on the divorce train and need to stay in plan A, perhaps for a few years to win her back if you have it in you

He needs to rule out an affair. All the Plan A in the world won't work if she's having an affair.

What is still bothering me is the way she acted about the giving you back the phone. Trust but verify even the most trustworthy person.

I just really feel that is she is done with you by her own choice then so be it. If she however is done with you because she has started something else, then this changes everything.

I don't think you will have closure if you don't know for sure.

Yes fifteenyears... the phone thing still bothers me. I think it contains her meticoulous plans and communication about her leaving. She didn't want me to know who her attorney was early on as if it wouldn't be listed on the decree. If think it's just paranoia, but I will keep my eyes peeled for more evidence.

It turns our my W didn't have the girls night out event on Saturday after all. I suspect because all attendees backed out except for one based on the evite. She rented a movie - I saw the Redbox receipt. I took the shears and waterhose to her on Friday. She was happy about it. I began cutting some of the shrubs. She joined in doing some pulling and picking up. We made small talk while doing so. She is a "talker" so though I can't put too much emphasis on the quantity I felt the quality of conversation was good. When I returned the kiddos on Sunday I spent a while there cleaning the shrubs that were cut. We had some additional family time. We talked about DD1 second birthday party coming in August. She stated she wanted to have it at her place. I agreed it would be nice(in times past I can't see myself agreeing to that). Speaking of August...our 13th wedding anniversary is Aug 19th. Every year we've been married we have taken an anniversay vacation. The thought of not doing anything this year REALLY bugs me out. I'm praying for things to turn to a point where we could at least have dinner.

The upside is that things have continued to be nice and cordial. Several members of our church (she's attended service twice in the last couple months) came to me yesterday extending prayer and encouraging me out of concern for what they "feel" is going on with our family. All stating that things will "work out" in my favor. The title of the message was "All Things Are Possible". So that is where my hope lies. We have our final Conflict Reolution and Co-Parenting class tonight. It's a joint session between the parents where we go over our family comitment plan and agreements. We wrote them out individually last session. I used a few MB principlas in writing my comitment such as no DJ, POJA, and PORH. Will see how that goes.

I have no idea if I have a few years of Plan A in me. As for being bisexual, she is not. HOWEVER, early on in the marriage we "seriously toyed" around with those ideas. The fact we did so became a stronghold for me. I thought and hinted about it often after the fact. We both later resented having gone there. I do know for a FACT, there other women do meet her emotional needs regularly. She's a woman's woman. she is on the leadership board of a distenguised professional womens' orginanization in Dallas. I've met many of the other ladies and their families and they pretty much worships the ground she walks on. She has several other "close" relationships with other women who she talks to, goes to visit, and "ministers" to often. She's always buying gifts and giving of her time and self to them....of course I grew to resent this.

We had our one on one session with the therapist last night. It was tense, awkward, refreshing, frustrating, and hopeful all at the same time. The therapist went to bat for me again in so many words, without trying to appear biased. She essentially told us my W that none of the issues that either of us brought to the table was were unresolvable. She simply had to choose to be committed and do the hard work. She said should you choose to reconcile it would take intense counseling and an allowance for mistakes. There are no perfect people or marriages. It's matter of how "YOU" show up to the party and deal with the issues. But you have to be committed. She said any communication of "hope" to me is unfair to me. That was refreshing...

The frustrating part... My W could not wrap her head around the notion of different "personalities" having a healthy thriving marriage. She has bought into this idea that our Jung INTP/ESFJ personality assesments (issued by the therapist) is final justification for our relationship being unsalvageable. Really? The therapist gave the �no..no honey� response and said. The personality type is only about your core� it�s the LEARNED BEHAVIOR�S that leds to relationships going bad. Neither of you have mental disabilities. You are very intelligent� you just need to learn a new set of skills and it can certainly work.

My wife continued to shake her head in doubt and actually said �I�m having trouble with that�. We discussed other things. I brought up our inability to converse using the �child-parent teacher conference� example from a while back. The therapist provided great clarity for us both on that issue. She says we both went into defense mode based on trigger words and our own interpretation of what both felt was being communicated. Made perfect sense as she explained it. The lady only has 35 years experience and has been married 44 years.

My hope is that my W is reflecting and considering the therapist�s statement that our issues are totally salvageable. She also plainly stated to my W that �the ball is your court�. I am becoming more and more content with where my W is mentally and emotionally. She really has a bent that people can not change....especially me. I feel as though I�ve said all I can say. I�ll just continue to show up for the fight and gently meet as many EN as I can.

Those personality assessments are usually pretty useless as far as helping a marriage!

Yup introduce your counselor to the MB concepts.

DNT, your situation is very complicated and seeing a traditional counselor is not a good idea. Counselors typically just cause couples to lovebust each other. Why don't you write to Dr Harley and get advice on how to Plan A your W through the D process. Drop the counselor.

I agree and I would have loved to drop the counselor. It was COURT ORDERED! It's called "Parallel Parenting and Conflict Resolution" and it's a 12 week course. It's tailor-made for divorced and divorcing couples. Last night was week 10 of 12. It's a group session of 5-6 couples. The information is actually very good and I like the therapist. But it's not MB by a long shot. I will write Dr. Harley. I sent an email (likely in an emotional dump) a couple months ago with no response. I will try again.

DNT
There were some technical difficulties a few months ago which resulted in some emails not getting through to the Harley's. Perhaps yours was one of those.

Have you read this?
Parallel Parenting in Plan B

Hit notify and let the MODS know when you email Dr. Harley again so they can make sure he receives your email.

Thank BrainHurts... Joyce responded and said it will be addressed on Friday most likely.

I've seen the parenting post before. I couldn't make it through reading it back then and it's not much better now as I think how my decisions, issues, will rob us both of precious moments that our children will miss as a intact family unit. I tried to read through it, but emotions begin to overwhelm me and I have to stop. It's going to take a while to wrap my brain around it all should this train continue in the direction it's headed. *eyes welling up now*

Oh the memories! Very recent memories. Just my experience here DNT, but I heard that kind of dung from my WS the entire time he was in the Fog after D-Day. My suggestion, just smile and do what I didn't do and say, "OK, well I hope you are wrong just this once." She is spewing big time Fogbabble here, so do not give it any credibility whatsoever.



In my experience, there is absolutely nothing you can say to help her, but your actions and attitude can move mountains once the AP is out of the picture or even if there is just a temporary break from the AP or from the Fog. However, you have to commit to the long haul as the Fog slows everything in the BS's life down to a miserably slow, snails pace. And as to that mountain moving, well, it is millimeter by millimeter, we are not talking football fields here.

Yes, it was.

Yes - I heard it on the replay. It was very good advice. I forget the fact that her love bank is closed to ME. Who has it been opened to is the million dollar question. Dr. Harley�s feedback motivates me to investigate further�someway, somehow. I think any evidence that may exist is contact on her iphone (s). When ever we are in the same location it is face down. Don't know how I will ever get my hands on it.

Last night and today have been victories. She came over last night to bring the kiddos bag and stuck around for a while playing with our DS5. He asked her if she would stay for a "sleepover". She's been much more "flexible" in visitation with the children and our going to and from each other's place. On today we had family dinner together at Chick-a-fila. As the children played we talked about work and a church conference that she is attending in the morning. It was nice. She was tired having coming straight from work. She's was fairly working late for a Friday...says she has a lot on her plate. I believe her somewhat as she has a new boss as of Jan this year. I�m suspect, but at least we were able to spend time as a family.

As we were preparing to leave the restaurant a waiter noticed the name of our church on the T-shirt my DS5 had on. She says she has attended a few times and knows our Pastors and made small talk about the church she belongs to. She returned a few minutes later asking us to pray for her. She begins to explain that she hasn�t seen her 3 children for 7 years. Her husband took them and moved away. She talked often about how she has changed and given her life to Christ�but her husband doesn�t believe it and isn�t willing to give her another chance. She�s in quite a bit a pain and she just needed prayer for strength, peace, and comfort.

I couldn�t believe what I was hearing�my wife never said much of anything as she spoke. I noticed the waiter was waiting for a response and began to encourage her to hang in there. I spoke of how God sees her heart and knows that she has been changed. I asked if she would like prayer right then..she immediately said yes and the 3 of us grabbed hands and I prayed for her marriage and children. My W hugged her and whispered some words to her. Simply put� I know this was no accidental meeting and very much divine intervention.

I've realized that my W is struggling financially and I feel pretty bombed out it. She actually makes a bit more than I, but I knew she had over-extended herself with our children's expenses, her new residence, and everything that came along with that. Before our session last night she asked if I could pay for the childcare she hires for Monday classes. Of course I said yes and did so. I saw her "like" some postings on FB regarding financial struggle today and I put two and two together. I still feel the bitterness even after several months of separation. Our therapist made a statement to our group that "feelings" may return as we begin to spend more time together as families. She then starts to mention that sex may become a desire...I mean you all would be two consenting adults. To the surprise of most of the class (not mine) she lets out a huge sarcastic chuckle. It was very telling as I glanced at the expressions in the room. Earlier this morning I was feeling very much in the pits and I sent my W at text saying "I love you with the air I breathe". There was no response. I didn't want one. I just compelled to let her know... I'm still here

Radio Clip of DNT's Call
Segment #2
Segment #3
Segment #4

Edit: BN nevermind my previous post. Thanks for posting. Things have been interesting lately. I have not been able to figure much of anything in terms of investigating. She's just hurt...not much more to it. I haven't made any withdrawals IMO...I can sense her trying to be nice for the sake of the children, but nothing much more. I went and vistied with her parents over the weekend. It's a 3 hour drive away. They were inviting and happy to see the grandkids. My FIL expressed his sadness about our going through the D. He seemed emphathetic expresed how great parents we werer and said he would keep us in prayer. I was happy about that.

Is there a 5th segment? I think that's where the email questions would be addressed?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=5110

(It's not often I beat BrainHurts to a radio show link!)

Email questions are answered in any segment, whenever they finish up with a caller. Calls usually go about 2-3 segments; sometimes more, sometimes less.

Well...going with VDR in car. Wish me luck.

I've also realized that I am in Plan C... not sure how to get out with limited contact to effectively Plan A

What is a VDR? Do you mean a VAR? Have you been able to get any more information?

Yes...VAR. I've got nothing else so I suppose I'm not technically in Plan C (which isn't really a plan) if I have no proof.

Exactly.

How often are you able to see her? She hasn't filed yet has she?

Oh yes...we are way down the D highway. She filed in March. We are a Sept 3rd trial away from being final. I see her about 3 times a week. For the last 12 weeks I saw her every Monday for court-ordered parallel parenting classes. Tomorrow (Saturday) will be our final class where we discuss our future agreement to be "great parents"!!

I'm sorry you have to go through these stupid classes

The classes are officially over now. Today we met alongside a couple who were actually trying to work it out. Felt better about that, but we still had to go through with a 'closure" declarations. It was a bunch of rehashing bad memories and things will leave and take from the classes. We talked a lot about change. That part was good because it was focused on changing behaviors and habits. One of the things my W wrote in her co-parenting promise is "be willing to have discussion about family involvement and how to do that consistently now and after new relationships form."

Not sure what to make of that... it was written 2 weeks ago.

You may be able to win her back through a lengthy plan A because she is basically inviting you into we life through "co parenting"

It was actually a parallel parenting class but the messages was overtly geared toward co-parenting. I suppose you are right, it is a reluctant invite but we both committed to do so. I gave a letter to her offering that we drop our attorneys and mediate a settlement to end any further financial and emotional costs. She has not responded. So at this point, I am under the impression she's not willing to cut ties with her attorney and is moving forward with the Sept 3 trial. I spoke with the therapist after today's session and she said it makes no sense to go to trial and to do what ever I have to do to "shut it down".

I smell smoke..

On yesterday I sent a surprise greeting card and some earbuds to her salon as a gift to be given by her stylist. I knew she had an appointment. She acknowledged that she received them with a thank you and a note about the kiddos. We sent several texts back and forth about them with emotioncons. She called and shared a funny story on Thursday about our DS. Seemingly all good stuff� yes?

Well as of this morning I placed the VAR in the car. I had to help her with getting a tire changed which allowed me to make the drop. My wife asked if I could keep our DD today since there was no school today (verified) and I was off work. So, she was with us at the tire shop and my W had to keep an eye on her. It was a pleasant experience and my W seemed to be in good spirits. Moments ago I noticed an interesting email came across her wire. It's an Edible Arrangements order of Chocolate Dipped strawberries. The message says "Just Because". It's to be addressed and delivered today to a married gentlemen (per Facebook...family pic of the wife and two children is the profile pic) and he is of uncommon cultural background. Certainly not of one that would indicate indiscretion, BUT I listened to enough MB radio to know anything is possible. The residence is not very far from both our places. The order was placed about an hour after our leaving the tire shop. Just a few moments after seeing the order I received an email asking if I would pick-up our DS from school. Makes sense because both DS and DD spent the night last night. My W has been overall very open and friendly lately. She seemed to be in a rush off last night after bringing the kiddos to my place. I had a quick moment to glance at her iphone but did not, while she tucked the kiddos into bed.

So what gives? She always gives �Thank you� gifts� but this was a �Just Because��but to a very weird recipient. But maybe�just maybe� she�s gotten comfortable, brave, closer to D being final, and here is the break I�ve always thought was there. At this moment I don�t believe she is at work. I saw another email about delivering a �meal� as part of her women�s association outreach efforts.

Who is this OM? You need to find out if indeed they are having an affair. His BW needs to know.

When can you check the VAR? I think I've asked already. Can you afford a PI?

I'm pretty sure it's her boss. Could be false alarm. He joined the company very recently...as in Jan...around the time she shut down intimately...and prior to that she also made an issue with my contacting her doing business hours...she was having "productivity challenges. She spoke of her boss on a few occasions but nothing that raised flags. But I will keep digging. I texted to see if she wanted to have family dinner tonight and she replied "oh thanks!....have plans". I will get the VAR on Sunday. She will come over for our DD birthday party prep...to use my printer. I told her I would fix her taillight on her car.

I could afford a PI, but this would be an office affair if at all (I doubt it) which I don't believe a PI could uncover much.

A Good PI would. I would ask the PI before you hire him. Then you'll know you have a good PI. If she is indeed having an affair with her boss that explains why she isn't even willing to work on your marriage. His BW needs to know.

I've identified his W. I still need solid proof of affair. I've contact 3 PI's and they all suggest it will be nearly impossible to uncover anything contained at work and mobile records without access. I will retrieve the VAR tomorrow and see what's there. I had the kiddos this weekend so she was free to roam. I've had lots of confirming thoughts as it relates to this potential relationship with her new boss.
It was shortly after he joined the company in January that she started saying that my communication with her during business hours was a disruption with her work productivity�and that is when she suddenly shut down and decided she no longer wanted to be intimate.

She�s communicated much admiration, him being very supportive and great leadership when compared to the former boss.

Though there was initial concern with the cultural difference, she quickly dismissed him as nothing like one would expect. He is very Americanized�

She talked in-depth about his recommending healing oils to treat our children for allergies and other ailments. She diligently read a several hundred page book about all the different healing remedies. She's ordered much of it and the stuff isn�t cheap. She has been searching all around for those she can�t find online.

A couple weeks ago she was ecstatic as she credits him with selecting her to be the first auditor in bank history to speak before the audit committee.

Atypical long hours of work� Often times picking kids up at the last minute

Unusual allegiance to work, she has been way more dedicated than usual and seemingly refuses to miss days even when there are child needs.

Starting to add up eh?

Definitely adding up. If she isn't having an affair then hmmmm

Let us know what you hear on the VAR. Next time you have a look at her phone, take it.

Yes it's very possible that she is having or trying
To start an affair

Something smells fishy to me too. Remember, trust but verify!!! We all know that affairs can get even the most spiritual person if they are not protecting themself.

Got the VAR. There was 6 hours worth. Many calls...didn't hear anything related to OM. I hear several conversations with MIL and girlfriends where she bad mouths me pretty intensely. She claims I'm "crazy" in several conversations. She has no intentions of wanting to settle out of court. She wants $ under the guise of child support. I support my children very well...everyone knows that. She spoke of the gift I gave to stylist. She ridiculed the greeting card, to their ooohs and aaahs she said "you all are having the reaction he wanted me to have"...then telling all the other women to who she read it "glad you were impressed, because I wasn't". It's very hard to listen to the heart and thoughts of a women I love so dearly, become so cold. Today is our 13th Anniversary. I'm a MESS!

Sorry DNT.

I'm sorry, DNT.

One of the big problems of love bank deposits to someone where you have a negative love bank balance is that they often react negatively. So, you might have moved from a balance of 200 in the hole to 100 in the hole and the reaction still be negative because her feeling is still "hate" or "dislike." BUT, it's still a deposit.

I'm sorry, DNT. I know how painful this must be for toy now. Hang in there!!!

Should I buy time? My attorney says we could buy time if she refers another attorney to the case. Honestly, I am not sure it's worth it. I'd almost rather go through with it all and attempt win her back on the other side of the process. As it's been stated, co-parenting may facilitate the possibility.

In addition to my question above. Any other suggestions on investigating the possible EA? All I have is the "Just Because" Edible Arrangement bouquet and chocolate covered strawberries that were delivered to the bosses HOME address. A couple of confidants have stated "I think you have all you need" when combined with other clues. I don't think I have enough. Am I right? The gift could be explained away. I need proof of communication. Which I doubt I'd ever get without access to the work laptop or STEALING her iPhone.

BTW...our communication is improving and we are seeing each other more often. Today is our DD 2nd birthday. We'll see each other quite a bit this weekend for her parties.

The gift to the boss appears to be a false alarm. While having dinner at her place with the she and the kiddos she volunteers that her director had been soliciting prayer. It turns out he's been very sick and out of the office for over two weeks. She mentioned her and people from the office had been sending gifts to lift his spirits as he is order on home rest. Apparently his kidneys are in danger of failing. Anywho... thought I would give that update of good news. September 12 court date is quickly approaching and I have decided to terminate counsel and request more time. Hopefully it is granted and delayed as long as possible. We've been interacting on MUCH better terms, but no mention of changing course. Pray for me!

How is she reacting to you? Letting you make LB$?

I've steered away from LB's. She's been reacting less guarded and talking to me freely. She's been positive. I can feel the anger dissipating. All of the conversations I heard on the VAR she actually had with me (save the insults)...that was weird but refreshing.

BH what exactly what you trying to discern from your question? I'm curious..

I'm wondering if she isn't having an affair and if she seems to be opening her LB to you, that is a good sign.

I think she is. She just called me JUST to share a "funny story" about DS5. We laughed and hung up the phone. On yesterday when I took the kids back we all sat on the floor and had "family time" with the kiddos. Everything is focused on them. I guess that's the way it should be given the circumstances. It's nice but frustrating. 10 days and counting till the next court appearance. Wish she would just drop it all.

Can you stall or extend it out?

I have yet to hear back from my attorney who said it's likely the judge will grant a continuance for a later date if I switch counsel....which my attorney says she is willing to do. I usually get a prompt response. Errr!

So here we are...after she sent me an email at 9:45am today to consider attending my Friday counseling session with me.

From: W
To: boss, 2 female coworkers, W of �family� friends, my MIL
Sent: Wednesday, September 4, 2013 2:18 PM
Subject: It's Prayer Time!

Hello Ladies,

First, I just want to tell you how grateful I am to have your support. It means more than you know. Believe it or not, it has been almost 6 months since this journey began. The one-hour divorce trial will be next Thursday, September 12 at 11am. I need your prayers.

Please pray specifically that:
1. The Lord's perfect Will will be done. Matthew 6:9-13
2. I will have favor with Judge ____ _____. Leviticus 26:9
3. The judge will order me to pay, at minimum, standard child support, to have standard visitation/possession, to pay/provide standard insurance and pay 1/2 of IRS debt. Psalm 37
4. My attorney will be prepared and say all the right words at the right time to work in my favor. 1 Corinthians 1:30, Psalm 37:30-31
5. I will be prepared and say all the right words at the right time to work in my favor. 1 Corinthians 1:30, Psalm 37:30-31
6. H will say all the right words at the right time to work in my favor. Psalm 37:32-33, Deut. 33:29
7. H�s attorney will say all the right words at the right time to work in my favor. Psalm 37:32-33, Deut 33.29
8. H will have good mental health from this day forward and be accepting of all that occurs with no desire to harm himself or others. Psalm 147:3
9. H will seek the Lord, truly, and be an excellent example for DS5 and DD2 now and for the rest of his days. John 16:13
10. Our co-parenting relationship will thrive so that we can truly be the parents God has created us to be. Psalm 16:7
11. Our finances will overflow so that no one has to suffer any financial hardship that could trickle down to the children. Leviticus 26:10
12. We will move on to live happy and healthy lives with thriving relationships that are pleasant, peaceful, and positively beneficial to our children with no threat of harm or danger. Philippians 4:19

I believe the Lord has and will continue to cover me and our children. I know that whatever the outcome, He has us. I have comfort in that. Leviticus 26:3-5, 13

Thank you again for your prayers and words of encouragement during this time. If I know nothing else, I know that we serve a God who is faithful and has been here with me and my littles EVERY step of the way. Thank you, Lord!

Sincerely,

W

We had a divorce trial today. Nothing left to do other than signing the papers. It feels surreal...but I have learned so much about myself as well as others. I can't fathom reconciliation at this point. She is vehement done. Not looking forward to this emotional roller coaster. Thanks for all the prayers and encouragement from everyone.

So sorry DNT.

That's so much fog it's unbelieveable...

There are just no words.

karmarose I never confirmed an affair on her part, so I'm not sure it's fog. Could very likely be "just fed up". I gave her enough grief to do so.

I feel for you DNT and wish you the best no matter how things turn out.

How are things?

Hi BrainHurts! I haven't been on here in ages and all of a sudden I had the notion to check this thread and noticed you posted this AM. Providence!:)

Well things are good! I've grown leaps and bounds. I'm at peace. I feel that my ex and I have arrived at a place of peace and contentment. I want to reconcile more than ever, but I have no desire to PUSH. I'll just continue to love her, love our children, and make love bank deposits as opportunities allow. There has been several incidents and minor emergencies that where she has needing me to come through and I did so with no expectations. She�s been consistently inviting. I�ve spent time a couple of evenings at her place watching our favorite show, making small talk, with no �signals� that time is up and for me to go. She�s freely come to and from my place. Again, things are good considering�

Most recently her dad has been diagnosed with cancer which required immediate attention, radiation, and so forth. Her parents are currently staying with her and our kiddos. We�ve talked a lot about all of it and I ensured I am available to be whatever she needs. I�m praying he beats it, but there are no guarantees. I love my in-laws and my father-in-law told me during our last conversation that he really �hated� what was going on between us.

The icy weather has us all locked inside this weekend, so I managed to 4-wheel-drive my truck over to spend time with her, kiddos, and in-laws yesterday and planned to do so again today. Continue to pray I stay the course and she allows her heart to consider reconciliation. I am reading a book called �I Do Again� � How We Found a Second Chance at Our Marriage and You Can Too by Cheryl & Scruggs. The reason I mention it is the author Cheryl spoke at her professional women�s group several months back. She told her marriage story and answered questions from the group. I thought this would have been a turning point for HER. What I realized is that it was for ME�to get the book and fully understand the post-divorce and process of reconciliation of couple that PEFECTLY mirrors us. It�s been amazing, I�m halfway through and will finish today.

Are you maintainingno boundaries around women?

Jedi I intended to come back and address the "other women" topic. Well...for the most part I've maintained according to normal standards. I've casually been out a few times (lonely?). But nothing that suggests "moving on" or beginnings of any type of relationship. There was one in particular from whom I had to distance myself and discontinue communication. Not quite MB protocol...I know. My heart is still with my x-W.

I'm kind of confused are you married or divorced? If your married you did a bad thing going on these dates. If divorced your free to date. Glad to hear your doing better tho.

Hi TranquilDark...we divorced.

For the most part??

Damn, I'm actually happy for your EX to be rid of you because it would seem you're completely incapable of learning from your mistakes and choices.

Your heart is with your ex-wife, huh? Just where the hell were the rest of your body parts during this epiphany?

You do beat all.

I'm not sure what you are alluding to Viper. We are divorced. I'm free to date and I did so and in doing so I haven't crossed any lines. Perhaps a friendly hug good-bye. I suppose my stating "for the most part" leaves the door open for loose interpretation. No boundaries have been crossed.

DNT,

If you want to win her back you shouldn't be dating

Thanks Jedi - duly noted!

What viper is alluding to is this. You say your heart is with your ex wife yet your going on dates. Your actions speak louder than your small words. If your lonely have a bro night, join an intramural sport league, go run till you puke. Just don't make lame statements like that and go on the hunt.

Add: your not an idiot but you knew better and you caved. Boundaries have been crossed. Why hug some other woman when you love another. Need to be logical here man.

Well...I should elaborate a bit. For a brief moment all signs suggested I should move on. I tried and I quickly realized I wasn't ready. So I backed off trying to date. I once heard that logic never undresses in front of pain. There's been a bit of pain involved for us all and I'm dealing and learning as I go.

If he's divorced, shouldn't he adopt a renter's mentality?

I don't understand the logic of behaving like a buyer at this point.

It might be bad strategy if he wants her back, but the criticism above seems to hinge on some sense of moral wrongdoing. Which it clearly can't be�since the marriage is over.

Funny you should mention that kerala. I recently ordered a few copies of Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders. I had one delivered to my ex. Before we split, I recall reading the online summary and it was eye opening how it characterized us in the beginning. When I go to her place I always see it sitting on top of her stack of books, so I assume she's been reading. I never considered "adopting" a renters mentality, but it makes sense I suppose. I'm curious to hear what the "experts" say.

Dr. Harley says when dating you should be in a Freeloaders mind and then move to renters.

On Thursday night after taking my kids back to my XW's place we spent time watching our favorite show for the 3rd week in row. We spent a little time talking about her dad's diagnosis amongst other things. It occurred to me that it�s been years and years since I called her by first name. It has always been baby or babe. As I gather myself to leave I said "Hi" to my XW. I said it in a tone as if I was greeting her for the first time. Of course she seemed a little weirded out by it...but I repeated it...and said "my name is FIRST NAME". She gave a suspicious smile and responded �Hi�. I then asked her name�and she appropriately responded by saying her first name and it had a firm but nice ring to it. I did this to indirectly suggest that I was meeting her for the first time� which in actuality there is some truth to it. I�m in a much different place. She�s always been thrilled with �initial courtship� and I thought this may be a nonthreatening approach to asking her out at some point. I sent her a text on Saturday AM of �Good morning �First name��she responds� �good morning �My first name�. Later on, I took some things she needed to her place for her and the kiddos�including a new air mattress so she could sleep comfortably. She has expressed gratitude throughout. I also spent an evening putting up the Christmas tree, singing, and dancing with the kiddos. During which I could tell she missed this yearly experience. Her face showed it. The kiddos were bubbling over with joy as we had a blast.
I�m hoping this first name calling sticks as if to say we are meeting again�and for the 1st time�and on a journey to a better and new place.

Good job,
Just remember to AVOID the love busters, especially the differences you had about child discipline last summer and focus on Love Bank Deposits

Invited XW to lunch today after parent teacher conference. She excepted! We intended to discuss DS. Lunch was nice and peaceful. I couldn't stop looking at her. She's beautiful. We spent most of the time discussing her mom and dad and the kiddos in general. She talked and I listened. Interjected here and there. Offered a suggestion on how to reduce her mom's financial burden. She was appreciative of that. It was good. We parted ways in the parking and wished one another a great rest of the day.

I am iching sooo bad to send her a link to song that says what I want to say. It's an artist we both like. Don't know how she'll take it, but I reallly want to send it. But I don't want to appear to be pushing the envelope. *sigh*

Good your making strides. Your right about the song though I would wait on that send it to her after a couple of more dates. Or listen to it together and look into her eyes as it plays. Don't do too much space your actions so you don't look needy. I could be wrong though.

I agree with TQ, although I was nearly castrated by women on the Divorce thread for being completely out of touch with dating so I'll confine my advice to : Make love bank deposits, Avoid Love Bank Withdrawls

On Friday night my XW accepted my invitation to taker her, our kiddos, and her parents out to see Christmas lights. This is our yearly tradition and I thought it would be great if her dad could get out and enjoy after enduring his first week of radiation treatments. I rented a mini-van with plenty of room and windows. We had a great time! Singing, laughing, and looking at the lights. They were very thankful. I was grateful. As I arrived back to my place with the kiddos, my XW sends another text saying "thank you thank you thank you". I replied "welcome welcome and I'm glad her dad was able to enjoy with us all". She responded "Me too, he's still up walking around!" I said "awesome". That's a big deal because her dad has not had much energy or motivation to do much of anything.

On another note... as soon as I came through the door to pick them up for our night out...DS runs up to me and says "daddy daddy daddy...look! (as he points to mommy)...that's your wife!" I really didn't know where that came from or how to respond. My gut says he and someone had been discussing it. I simply shook my head in agreement responded "ok...yes".

Lastly on Thursday night I noticed an old greeting card displayed on the kitchen table. I was caught off guard because it said "For the love of my life, my wife". It was a card I gave my XW last year for her birthday. Perhaps this has something to do with DS's comment as I entered to door Friday.

XW will be coming to my place to print labels to mail out Christmas cards today. More love bank deposits...no LBW's to come.

Great news!
Keep going.
Remember it may take a few years but youre off to a great start.

JK- I can�t quite wrap my brain around the idea of �a few years�, but there has been much that has already occurred that I never thought I could wrap my brain around. So�one hour, day, month, year at a time.
In other news� I spent a significant amount of time at my XW place on Christmas Eve and Day with the kiddos and X-in laws. On xmas eve we cooked together, made treats, talked, laughed, watched a late movie. My ex and I made quite a bit of small talk here and there. On Christmas morning she texted me as promised to let me know when the kiddos awake to open gifts. She even held them at bay so I wouldn�t miss a minute. It was a great day we share more laughs and smiles. She even teared-up as our DS taught me how to play chess. I bought my XW a very nice watch to match her hand-bag, a greeting card with a message our �friendship� signed, Love, XH. AND� I bought her the album containing the song that I wanted her to hear. And that�s where things got sketchy. She stated that it was �weird� receiving things like that from me. In the same breathe she mentioned that she was aware that I was attempting to date. She insisted that it didn�t bother her�asked if I thought they would make great mothers? All to suggest that she was happy for me and I should continue on�.BUT I could sense a snarl in her tone�. *sigh* I attempted to explain that I thought dating is what I wanted to do�but quickly learned it wasn�t what I wanted to do, or should be doing. Told her my heart was elsewhere. To no surprise, she wasn�t buying it. We then had a long and somewhat tenuous revisit of how she felt about us and I respectfully stated how I felt. However in doing so, we discussed and I believe we gained some clarity of �how we got here�. I mentioned that I was in a place where I could be very transparent� as she asked �how so?�� I was able to summarized my realization of dealing with my own depression, insecurities, sexual addiction, and overall being emotionally unavailable to receive or give love. We looked one another in the eye as we talked and thought these are things I�ve mentioned before�I felt she �heard me�. She nodded in agreement at several points as we talked. Though I caught myself cutting her off a couple times (after she cut me off)�I took time to hear her as well. I told her about the book I read � she thought it was �stalker-ish� that I would know about it, but I was able to at least make a reference to their story. Ironically, the kiddos volume became unbearable for us to continue� and we left some things on the table. I spent the rest of the night cleaning her kitchen and putting away food. With her mom taking care of her dad and her being noticeably fatigued�I felt this was a must. Before I left�I heard the first song from album that I purchased her blasting loudly from her laptop. &#61514; It just so happened to be the same song that I was humming aloud as I cleaned the kitchen. I don�t think she intended for that to happen�but it gave me a big smile on the inside. I took out her trash. Grabbed some things to take to my place�we both said goodnight� she delightfully shouted Merry Christmas as I walked out the door.

A couple more notable things she said about herself:
1. God said he would send His best.. but I told God I didn't want it...cause I'm just not interested in dealing with anyone.
2. When I think back on it... I could've dealt with the infidelity if you would have just "treated me good".

Thought?

Translation:

"I don't want to be faithful to anyone. And I want to sow my wild oats. A lot."

Karma what part are you translating?

This bit:


I'm sorry, I saw that and that leapt out at me, I was a bit quick to the draw.

I dont get the same impression, but I have a man's perspective.
I think if she was going to run around with men she would be using you as a babysitter so she could go out, which she apparently isn't doing

She's allowing you to make love bank deposits.
I think you are able to meet her needs, and your biggest obstacle was your affairs and a solid summer of love busters.
So since you've changed, you should be able to fill up that love bank quickly

But notice how she said that she's aware you are trying to date.
Harley encourages men trying to win their ex wives back not to date other women.
It messes up the mission
That's like going to a dance and dancing and grabbing [censored] with other women and expecting the girl you went with to come home.
Unfortunately, because of your infidelity your dating probably is a trigger for her so I suggest you stop it.

No she isn't doing that. She has other options for baby-sitting however. I'm somewhat convinced that she means exactly what she says...a mutual friend that I recently talked to confirmed the same thought. I have suspicion that she may have entertained it with someone vaguely but it didn't work out. At this point she has way too much on her plate to think about seeing someone.

I can sense her gradually paying more attention to me. She communicates regularly via text or calls out of the blue with updates on her dad, the kiddos. etc. As for dating I think what Harley and others have said is absolutely true based on how she inquired of me. She asked about one particular person name. Ask if had a picture...I looked her up on FB and showed her. She glanced and quickly diverted her eyes. She stated pretty much what you said in your analogy... she felt as if she is now "one of many" on my plate and that the only difference now is I have the "legal" right to pursue them all. Wow...

I suppose she is allowing me to make deposits and yes I can make them. I just have to remind myself there should be no expectations.

She will definitely be leary to keep allowing you to make LB deposits if you're dating others. If you really want to get back with her, then you need to not be dating OW.

On 12/30 XW attended my new church with me and my oldest before he left for the Army on 12/31. We both attended his swearing-in and send off. Good bitter sweet experience...things got a little rough at one point. I kept going down stairs and a couple blocks away to feed the parking meter where she parked. We were downtown Dallas and it was freezing. I mentioned that it would be best that I pay and move it to public parking, so we wouldn�t miss DS-19�s send off. Stated For some reason she took offense and said she would do it herself. and I XW turned NYE outings, but we had a great New Years day. I spent most of the day at her place. We then took the kids out to a winter exhibit later that evening. We ALL RODE TOGETHER in my vehicle! Felt good to spend time together as a seemingly intact family.

I after I returned to my place I received a call from her saying her dad was taken to ER. He was diagnosed with an internal ulcer that can�t be treated with surgery. There is essentially nothing that can be done. It�s a matter of days/hours for him. I had been seeing after our children since Jan 2 so she could be with her mom and dad at the hospital.

On last night I took them back to her place�and things became tense. I could sense her being stand-offish. I mentioned that I began to talk about heaven with DS-6 as it relates to the possibility of God wanting grandpa to be with him. She gave �a look� and smirk as if to say�yeah whatever�I�m not taking that discussion serious. She then adds I�ve already had that conversation with him a while back in relation to her grandmother who passed last year. I responded...I understand but it�s a little different now that he�s older, it�s his grandpa, and it�s happening �as we speak�. At that point I switched gears and asked� �why is so hard to take me serious�I thought we were attempting to move past the old experience?� (she said this on a number of occasions). The conversation then became a rehash of everything that happened during the marriage. She then gave a rebuke of my attempting to reach out and �do things� with her. She says it�s all �game� and I�m just trying to fulfill my �thrill of chase�. I respond gently�no it�s not a game, and I�m doing so because I love you. She says� �well, that�s changing nothing over here!�. She begins to urge me to move on�to which I say that�s not desire to move on�and not what He promised us. I then inform her that I am meeting with the couple who authored the book I was reading on tomorrow�Tues 1/6. She goes off on a tangent say �seek out all the resources in the world, our situation is different and no-one will be able to understand justify what I went through!� �to that I agreed. Things eventually cool off. She then asks me if I had considered counselling for personality similarities that I mentioned our DS-6 had and I shared during our last parent teacher conference � she explains perhaps that was be a better use of time and resources � so that I may better parent to him. (Instead of my meeting with the counsel couple�). I simply answer no I haven�t considered that, but thanks for the recommendation. Our children began to get rowdy and I prepare to leave. As I leave I state that if we really wanted to aid our children in their issues, perhaps the best solution is give up our right to be right and work on us to model and loving healthy relationship before them. No response� I kiss and hug the kiddos and wished them all a goodnight.

Yes...love busters noted. :|

Oh... and she made statements about her "moving forward" and her possibly modeling a great marriage before our children.

It appears that she may be entering the conflict stage, which is a good improvement over the withdrawal stage.
It seems she may be going back and forth.

Are you you familiar with the 3 stages of intimacy described by Harley?

Yes! Jedi_Knight. I am familiar with the 3 stages and I was hoping that was the case. Conflict stage! It certainly feels as though there was a back and forth shift. Never thought I'd be happy to be entering "conflict".

Insinuating with someone else not named me...btw

Yes I understand.
Control what you can: try to make love bank deposits with NO expectations.
NO complaints

XW father passed on yesterday. Please say a prayer or two for our family.

Sorry to hear that. How's your Plan A going?

This is sad news to hear. Praying for you all.

Thank you all for your prayers. Plan A is going fairly ok. I've been spending quite a bit of time at her place. She talks to me as much as she can stomach. It's mostly surface level information. I'm catering to her every need, groceries, snacks, meds, dinner, cooking, cleaning her kitchen, putting DD down for nap, taking care of MIL. MIL Bday was Fri and I bought flowers, cards, and baloons to make the place a little more festive. MIL was very grateful. I enjoyed it. XW usually sends a text of "thank you"...or says so as I leave.

Hello all. It's been just over a year when life as I knew began to change. It's a humbling, refreshing, and sobering feeling reading back through my saga of posts. I can see myself being delusional, selfish, liberated, confused, encouraged, frightened to death, joyous, broken, hopeful, resentful, relieved, and a myriad of other emotions throughout the pages. Though I'm still not in a place where I imagined or desire to be; I am grateful for the journey and very appreciative of those who came on board to help me reason through a very trying season. Continue to reach out to the hurting and to those that do the hurting as I believe EVERY marriage has the potential to be restored. Blessings!

Are you still trying to date your XW?

Hi BH - No, I am not at this point. After 10-12 "No, thank you" responses the stings began to bleed.

What are your plans DNT?

What type of contact do you have with your ex wife?

Hi Jedi - Everything is calm and cordial. My plans are to pray and stand back as far as possible. I deal with her only as it relates to the children according to schedule...until I'm lead to do so differently. I'm ok with this for now. There are other factors that have come into play (were always in play) that I don't beleive could be addressed through the forum.

Are you living a good moral life?

Yes... I am. That has been the most rewarding part of the journey. My walk and growth in Christ has been amazing. In that respect, going through it all was seemingly a nessecary evil. So much in fact, this experience has led my into a very specific area of ministry in which I've been serving. I'm now writing my first book(never thought of being an author) that deals with our story and the topic. I actually have forged relationships with a couple of commercially successful authors who are guiding along the way. XW is aware of it. It's no secrete among our fairly large "social network". I live out loud, so the transformation has been on display for a while now. I've essentially forced myself into public accountability, and I have private accountability as well.