Exactly. Because Dr. Harley regards infidelity as the worst abuse one spouse can put another through.

That means in previous to any other advice, even "What to do with an alcholic spouse," you need to end your affair, and end all contact for life with your affair partner.

Otherwise, all you are doing is using this board, and Dr. Harley's life work, to enable your affair.

Not. Going. To. Happen.

so what is the MB answer to my question ' When to give up?'

Try reading the article When to call it quits .

Well, one answer would be "not while you are actively participating in an affair."

The_TP,

I think you feel justified in having an affair because your husband is an alcoholic, correct? How would you feel if your husband said he was justified in having his affairs because you (a) didn't give enough sex or (b) nagged, or whatever. I'm sure we all know substance abuse is more serious than those reasons, but it still does not justify it.

Dr. Harley's article about alcoholism probably doesn't specifically address affairs because the rest of his material, including an entire book, make it quite clear that dating while separated is still adultery. I suppose that concept is considered so basic that he didn't feel the need to write extensively on it.

Spouses of alcoholics can be quite vulnerable to affairs if they do not have boundaries. After all, anything is more impressive than a drunk. Spouses of alcoholics who have affairs also make pretty poor choices in affair partners - you want someone who isn't a drunk. Looks like anyone fits the bill! Someone who is apparently willing to date someone who is still married is not a good choice in partner, but the alcoholic's spouse can't see that glaring issue because they are too concerned in finding a non-alcoholic.

Not judgement, just some common sense. My mother did the same as you actually a few years ago, and married the loser. He's a complete loser, but he's not an alcoholic, so good enough I guess.

And yes, you've already given up.

There is "giving up" (having an affair to distract from your marriage) and then there is "protecting yourself" (going into separation and working on yourself and personal boundaries while awaiting divorce). #2 is what is recommended with an alcoholic spouse who refuses rehabilitation... you've chosen option #1, which is your own little marriage program. This program is NOT endorsed by Dr. Harley.

You are cherry-picking what materials you want to follow and ignoring the blatant obvious ones that suggest you are doing some major wrong too.

Incorrect really . I feel justified in separating From H and starting to date because he has been unfaithful to me on multiple occasions, has spent thousands of pounds on lap dancers, has forged my signature to cash an investment. Alcohol on its own I have coped with. I have forgiven previous infidelity and lap dancing thousands going out of my bank account and been made promises in 2011 that it would never happen again. When it all happened again in 2013 I finally gave up hope.

I have not committed adultery in the legal sense, though I have been taken on some pretty amazing dates and delivered safely back home at the end of them.

I could do with complete loser expanding ... What traits should I be watching out for?

How about men who are eager to date a woman who is still married?

Any man with his sense in order isn't going to date a married woman. That is an obvious sign that they do not care for sanctity of marriage and they certainly don't care about any emotional/mental healing that you would need after being abused in your marriage in such a way.

Nobody is saying what your husband did was right - you are absolutely justified in separating and divorcing. The issue is that you've been a victim of crime, and you're doing the same thing now.

And I feel loser is quite appropriate here. Any man who starts dating a married woman does not have respect for her. You are old enough to know this by now.

You came to MB in 2003 and now 2013. 10 years. You might have had a proper separation, divorce, and healing - maybe even remarriage to a good man - by now if you actually read the principles. Your marriage is a train wreck, so I would suggest maybe you should stop trusting where your sense is leading you and start reading Harley's materials. No, just not the ones on alcoholism - you've forgotten the principles of an entire book!!

Really? So if I had just filed for a quickie divorce the same guy stops being a complete loser???

Maybe if you had gotten a divorce and actually studied the MB principles about dating after divorce and how to maintain boundaries in a relationship, you would decide that "he's not right for you"?

Right now, you've just gone through yet another false recovery and you are angry. You aren't thinking about healing after your marriage or finding a good partner, you'd have different standards.

But you've already been given on the "when to call it quits" article, so there you go. There's really nothing MB can do for you if you think it's okay to have an affair because your spouse did. In the end, you might just find happiness, or you'll jump out of the pan and into the fire with another man who has no respect for marriage. That's for you to find out, and your children to watch. Maybe give them at least one decent example of a parent who respects marriage and family.

Separation is not divorce. Divorce is divorce.

Every person locked into an adulterous relationship has a laundry list about their spouse... I'm quite certain your husband did for each of his transgressions.

Thank you ... This is great advice, first time I have read this and has helped me to look at things differently.

You are using excuses to justify your actions. Your A has nothing to do with your WS. Trust me, I was going down the exact same path as you and had the same feelings, its ok because we are separate or whatever.

Well its not, you are wanting your spouse to change and do better but you are not willing to stick around and support him while he's attempting to change. This finally clicked for me, I know I wasn't there for my WW as much she needed and this set the necessary conditions for an affair to happen. I feel cheated and wronged because she chose the A rather than doing anything possible to get me to change the conditions where she was unhappy and I see that as her fault completely. That is exactly what you are doing, you are engaging in an A rather than sticking with your WS and trying to help him fix the problems. If you blame your WS for the A then you should also blame yourself.

Thank you for the reply txstunnedman. It is articlated very well a d useful to see from another angle.

To clarify my question, however, is there a point where you have to give up trying to support and help a spouse and move on or do you really believe I need to keep trying until I die.

My friends and family think I would be crazy to give any more chances as it is like getting back on a hamster wheel of promises made and promises broken.

You are married. You are committing adultery. You know this, or you wouldn't be here. Your choice to look at UK law and disregard your commitment to God and your husband tells me that you are very foggy.

I would suggest you actually divorce your husband before you start dating or even entertaining ideas of the best replacement for your husband. And I don't mean to run out to meet your latest interest while the ink is still wet on the divorce decree. I would suggest you give it a year after the divorce before you start dating, as opposed to hopping from one bed to another.

Thank you for the advice ... I guess I'm wondering the logic behind the timescale... Why a year from divorcee? For various reasons I have no plans to ever remarry so putting money in the hands of lawyers to obtain a piece of paper is not high on my priorities.

Given I have only had sex with one man Ever ( the H) I am not sure where the reference to bed hopping comes from.

You are having an affair now. It will eventually become physical if it hasn't done so already. 'Bed-hopping' is leaving one partner for another one with little time in between, hence my caution to you to let some time go by before you date.

You need this time to determine what you want in your life and to be able to clearly assess any future partners. You are in a marriage now. You should not be assessing future partners until the dust settles on the divorce and you have begun a new life as an unmarried woman. You are not there right now. I gave you a one-year period as a starting point; some people need longer than that to get their lives in order and end things properly with their former spouse.

Uh-huh. We've heard that before. You can't foretell the future any more than the rest of us.