So 20 years of marriage, three kids, and I'm at a place where I have one foot out the door. After years of fighting, verbal abuse (angry outbursts, disrespectful treatment, controlling relationship), I had had enough. There was a time when I stayed because I would "never" divorce. Whatever it was, I could endure, thought maybe God put me here because I was strong enough to help him through his cycles of depression yadda yadda. A friend identified the verbal/emotional abuse and gave me a book to read... couldn't even open it for about two years, and when I did, it was like the book was written about me. I started standing up for myself more which led to more fighting, more detatchment/distance... we would fight, and I would feel exhausted and beat up emotionally. I remember praying and asking God to help me find one thing - ONE thing about him to even like and hold onto. He complained of not enough sex.. I tried to explain that friendship/connection outside the bedroom was important and if that's in place then the sexual desire builds. He had emotional affair which he still tries to downplay - he didn't act on it. And the poor money management on my part was "just as bad". Ummmm....

I was an idiot. He was involved with her, but they were just running partners. There were others around. But he lit up when he talked about her. He knew more about her kids than his own. 12,000 texts back and forth in one month. It was obvious. After I told him I was considering leaving, he was yelling at me about finances and I asked if that was any worse than his involvement with the OW. First humbling moment I remember.... he "supposed" it was "in a way... deception".

So I look back on our marriage and remember a lot of feeling talked down to, walking on eggshells, emotional roller coaster with his moods, and the emotional affair. Several times I asked for counseling, but he refused. I even asked "so if that would save our marriage, you wouldn't go?" He said it was crap.

He now looks back and remembers mostly good times with a few bumps along the way. He doesn't agree that it was emotional/verbal abuse. Downplays the emotional affair. Says I'm holding onto grudges from the past and throwing them in his face (as I was trying to help him see the behavior pattern that led us here).

I am now seeing a counselor. A friend recommended The Love Dare (which I cannot even stomach right now because I'm still figuring out whether I can learn to like him or have any desire to stay). And His Needs Her Needs. It would have been helpful maybe 10 years ago. Even 5 years. But now... I feel like it's too late. And I don't trust the showering of affection and neediness on his part. He is constantly texting and saying he misses me and I can't even respond. I don't feel anything... well, that's not true. I feel trapped. Obligated to want to try but no desire to try. He wants to spend all kinds of time together and be affectionate and talk talk talk about problems... I feel suffocated by it. We are coming from nothing to a smothering amount of it. I know he's trying to fix it and save it.

I never saw myself as someone who would divorce. But I will not live the way it's been... and even with the "changes" that are happening, it still feels like there is no friendship. Just about every topic that comes up, we are on opposite pages. I think a big problem all along has been a difference in values. He is very materialistic and judgmental. I remember one time saying I felt like if I had a different opinion than him, he would get angry... he said he thought I should have the same opinions because we are married. This was some time ago, but explains a lot.

Now the problem is instead of feeling controlled by his anger, I feel controlled by his depression and neediness. He wants affection and reassurance that I can't offer right now, and his patience is not long lasting. I will not pretend anymore.

So I'm open to thoughts.

How old are your children?

Does your H still have anger problems? Has he ever hit you or threatened to hit you? Shoved you?

How long ago did your H's affair end? Was the woman married? Did her husband know about the affair?

Marriage Builders will help you turn your marriage around IF both spouses agree to follow the program and all its concepts completely. One person can start but the other person will have join in to make it work.

Why is your H depressed? Has he been diagnosed by a physician? Has he ever taken anti-depressants? Would he say that he has a fulfilling career?

Please go with your intuition about the Love Dare. That kind of program is likely to cause you to lose even more of your love for him.

Unconditional love and commitment actually tends to result in bad marriages, because there is no real incentive to engage fully in the marriage and meet needs, avoid love busters and follow the Policy of Joint Agreement if the other person will never leave you, no matter what is done to them.

I would first order Love Busters and read it to understand more clearly all the negative things you are doing. Your H is doing them, too, and the book will help you understand how it is you have started to dislike, possibly even hate, your husband by now. Read Love Busters and eliminate all your own LBs, since you are the one who is here at MB.

If your H has angry outbursts, consider readying yourself for a separation until they are eliminated.

Start listening the radio show every day. It's a wonderful education in the principles of Marriage Builders and what it takes to have a great marriage.

Also, have you read the Basic Concepts of MB?

Well, he's working on the angry outbursts... it's only been a few weeks since he found out I was thinking of leaving so he's working on being more patient and keeping his temper in control. What concerns me is that if someone has abusive tendencies/behavior, a book might help, but I think the issues are deeper than that and he needs to be talking to a counselor and working on the root of the problem, not just the symptoms. He keeps to himself (which is what he tends to do when he's in the depression cycle), he could spend all day and night in bed watching tv and sleeping. He complains all the time that he feels alone, but my view is that he chooses to be alone. There's me, his children... he doesn't really have friends and his family has fallen apart. He says he needs me to be his rock... but I feel like I've been a rock for so long and now I need to learn to be my own rock in some ways. I have a lot of anger to deal with over the affair, the neglect, the anger, constant criticism, talking down to me... I just downloaded LB and will start reading it, but a big part of me is wondering whether my love has been busted so many times and in so many ways that it can't be recovered. He wronged me... but somehow I'm the bad guy because I am not able to be close and show affection. Last night I went upstairs to talk to him and then i felt trapped, like I didn't have a choice of going back downstairs to do a few things before I went to bed because he would take it personally and be all depressed.... so I stayed in the room, and I had to fight an anxiety attack the whole time.

I am preparing myself for separation so that I have a plan of what to do if he starts having outbursts again. He has never hit me or pushed me, but he has made fists... has broken things... I just cannot live on eggshells any longer. I stayed together "for the kids" for a long time, and then one day recently it occurred to me that I wasn't doing them any favors by setting the example of staying in an unhealthy situation. He was abusive toward our daughter when she was 3 on one occasion (called it spanking, but it was very much out of anger, unwarranted, and much too violent). I was weak and did the "I'll talk to him after and not in front of our kids and our dinner guest (gulp!), but if it happened today I would protect my child. I will always be ridden with guilt over that evening.

Like I said, right now I feel like it's still the "fix it" stage... so how much is for show and to win me back, and how much is going to be real change. I don't trust anything... I don't want to get comfortable again and be disappointed again like the other 500 times. But I will start with LB.

One question - you mentioned Love Dare being more likely to cause me to lose more love (although not sure that could happen). Why do you say this?

To answer the questions... children are between 10-14. The affair ended two years ago... most likely built up over the course of two years and they were spending a LOTTTT of time together. I doubt her husband knew, but I really don't know. I've been tempted to try to find out something, but I'm not sure I want to go down that road. Thoughts? I feel like I don't have the whole truth.

Thank you for your advice and encouragement.

I must add we are reading His Needs Her Needs... there are some things in that book that are very helpful, but some I don't necessarily agree with (or even strongly disagree with), so I'm hoping Love Busters will be more helpful.

I've always said that HNHN was really just half of a program. If there are Love Busters, they need to be eliminated first.

But if there's been a prior affair, then Surviving an Affair is really the book for you.

And by the way, the Divorcing/Divorced section of the forum won't really get you the help you need if you would like to turn things around. Click "notify" and ask the moderators to move your post to the "surviving an affair" section of the board. There is a lot more traffic there.

Oh my, yes! Dr. Harley does not endorse women going through the approach of the Love Dare book.

And the reason he does not endorse this is because when a woman meets her husband's emotional needs without reciprocation or any expectation of reciprocation, it not only causes her to lose her love for her husband, it can also be very hard on her physical health. Many women end up very depressed, or with nervous breakdowns, or with various physical ailments from doing this.

The way Dr. Harley addresses Angry Outbursts (AO) is that a person who has them needs to learn how to relax. There is a specific technique described. Relaxation actually helps to form new neuropathways in the brain and releases the adrenalin safely. After some practice, the brain can do this more easily. Love Busters describes this in more detail. Also, take a look at the articles in the article section. He should also learn to eliminate any stressors that tend to trigger his anger.

You two never really recovered from your H's affair. Markos suggested Surviving an Affair, and I agree that's a great place to start. Your H has never given you Just Compensation for his affair.

Just compensation means:

No contact ever again with affair partner.

Extraordinary precautions to prevent another affair from ever happening again. An integrated, transparent lifestyle.

Restore the marital relationship to one that is BETTER than it was before the affair. It can't go back to just more of the same. He has the ability to pay you back, so to speak, by doing what it takes on his part to create a romantic, passionate, fulfilling marriage. He needs to learn to meet your emotional needs (and you will meet his, too.) He needs to eliminate ALL his love busters. (and you do, too.)You both need to learn all about the Policy of Joint Agreement and abide by it for the rest of your life together.

Without all three parts, your marriage will continue to limp along.

Edited to add: You need to know the whole truth of your H's affair. The affair should be exposed, and the husband of the OW should know of his wife's adultery as well.

Here are some good reads.
Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Read the three parts to this.
When to Call it Quits #1

I posted here because I feel like I'm just threads away from divorcing. I feel like I am deadlocked and don't even want to try... I tried for so long and there was never any reciprocation of effort. I took so much emotional cruelty. Right now he is constantly saying and texting that he misses me, he wants to spend time with me... I want to run away from it. I feel distant and cold, and I read these things in the books and cringe honestly. His solution (as suggested in HNHN) is to spend all of our free time together (which is very limited because we run a business. At this point, I endure this time... I have no desire for it. I'm relieved when I can get away. This marriage was over long ago and I have lost hope. I feel like we don't share the same interests, the same sense of humor, the same values, and I made the mistake of overlooking these things a long time ago. Now they are painful.

I am definitely liking Love Busters more than the other two. HNHN, in my opinion, is very one-sided. For instance, focusing on the woman's physical appearance without addressing the same issues to the man... doing your hair, dressing the way he likes, losing weight, even wearing pajamas he likes (even if it's the most uncomfortable thing in the world for you)... first, some of the things I disagree with (like looking through old photos and asking yourself if you could lose a little weight. That seems shallow to me, and especially if they're looking through the pictures together, this could be hurtful). Also, does it say the man shouldn't wear his dress socks and ratty boxers with his gut hanging out? Does it say the man should dress to please the wife's taste (or should I just change my own style to please him while he's able to wear unattractive clothing)? I know there's some good stuff in this book, but to be honest, reading these things has me very guarded about the rest of the book because it seems shallow. Granted, I haven't read the entire book so maybe it addresses that and I haven't gotten there yet.....

I feel like I'm too far gone.

As far as eliminating triggers of his anger... he's working on that at home, but I still see it there under the surface, bubbling. A lot of anger is triggered with his job insecurity. And financial troubles are a big trigger... but living beyond our means for too long caught up with us, and we are trying to recover from that now. On trips, traveling is a mess because if I can't read the map quickly enough he gets angry. If I don't want to sit around the hotel room while he watches tv, he gets annoyed (seems to be a theme with times when it's something I want to do/suggest)... or on the other hand, if I take a rare opportunity to read a book for enjoyment, he is angry about the time I spend reading and makes snide remarks to our daughter. Granted, he is reading HNHN and TLD... so these things could be improved. But I am very concerned about the fact that he isn't seeing the abuse, seeing the affair for what it really was... like when you have a disease and you treat the symptoms but not the disease itself -- I think he needs counseling to really recover from his abusive behaviors.

He has had no contact with the OW... well actually, I just looked and they are still friends on facebook. He stopped recreational activity that he did with her and has said if he resumes it, he will be careful to only do it with male friends.

I honestly have no interest in shared facebook, shared email, all of that. Nothing to hide, just think we need to each be our own people and not police each other. I'm probably saying too much that differs from the book... I am speaking only for myself and my own opinions.

The thing is... I feel so detatched and hopeless but I don't know how to be sure one way or another. His clinginess is pushing me away because I feel smothered. But if he backs off, he does so with depression and attitude. He wants to fix it and it's not happening on his timeline so he's frustrated.

Open to any thoughts. If this group would rather have me post elsewhere, i will message the moderator and request this.

Thank you

You are in a state of withdrawal. This is our way of protecting ourselves from hurt.


The idea is to meet each other's top needs. Most men consider PA a top need but evidently you do too. PA is not a shallow need! If it is important for you that he dress well and be slim and trim then you should make that clear to him.


Easy solution; POJA the map reading, POJA the TV time and POJA the reading time.



Ah, now we come to the crux of the matter. Move this to Surviving an Affair. The affair has not ended. Nothing else is going to work until you take the appropriate steps. The MB path to recovery from an affair is very specific and can act as a wake up for both sides to change. It sounds as if your Wayward Husband is willing to try to save the marriage.

He is definitely interested in saving the marriage. The problem now is that for him, it was almost two years ago and he's past it... for me, it was just discovered and is very raw (on top of facing the emotional/verbal abusive behavior of our entire marriage). I definitely am in a state of withdrawal, and he is frustrated and criticizing the fact that I am withdrawn and unable to show affection/emotion.

I did ask him to remove her from his fb friends list, which he did. I'm not sure revealing it to her husband at this point would make a difference... to my knowledge, he does not have contact with OW and is very ashamed. He even admitted that he always took pride in feeling that he was above doing something like that. It's been very humbling for him. But my recovery will not be overnight, and I do need to spend some time with the affair recovery forum because maybe that will help me also be able to move forward from the abusiveness... after all, the emotional affair was emotional abuse in itself.

Thank you for your feedback. I actually have requested that the moderator remove this topic from the forum... I would like to refer my husband to this forum, but I would rather that he didn't see this posting thread.

What spyware do you have in place?

You referred your WH to the MB forums or here to your thread specifically?

I'm not sure why you're asking about spyware?

I haven't referred him at all yet... I would like to because it might help him reach out for help. He is very reluctant to talk to people/support group or go to counseling. He is reading HNHN and is open to reading Love Busters. But I thought this forum would be helpful if he should choose to look for support. If he were to read this thread in particular, I think it could be hurtful... I'm saying these things to him for the most part, but I was much less sensitive about how I said things on here vs. how I say to him. Maybe I'm wrong to ask for the thread to be removed?

I'm asking because how do you know the affair is over for sure and how do you know there isn't something else going on, like porn?

If you read the board rules that they usually won't delete threads. Dr. Harley is very huge on openness and honesty.

I don't think you wrote anything insensitive. It looks like to me you're trying to find help for your marriage.

You will find MB very helpful. Dr. Harley guarantees that if both spouses are willing to follow the program that they will have a recovered marriage with romantic love that lasts a lifetime.

Well, I am basically trusting his word about it. He swears nothing physical happened and it was only emotional... there has been a little bit of blame placed on me (if I had met his needs he wouldn't have even been tempted), and there has been downplay about the seriousness of it ("it's not like I thought 'I want to have sex with this woman'... to which I responded, "You said you had sexual thoughts about her - what's the difference?"). But today he was more humble and open about it. I said I had thought about contacting her but didn't think that would accomplish anything. He swears they have no contact and he has learned from the fact that he allowed himself to be in a situation he shouldn't have (running with her alone, texting, etc.) It makes me sick to think I took photos of them running together... I washed his running clothes and our budget took a huge hit with the fuel he spent driving 45 min one way to run with her every early morning. (And then I was criticized for not being able to manage our money...)

Porn did come up as well. He travels with his job and the sexual need wasn't being filled, so he filled it that way.

I feel like my heart is just starting to be open to the idea that maybe... maybe I can take a baby step closer. But then once I do, he comes on so strong (like grabbing my rear end and making sexual references), and I shut down again. Right now I don't need "sex". And I don't feel safe getting closer if I know sex is expected so quickly after I take a baby step. I'm not sure whether that makes sense.

I'm trying to find help, but I'll admit reluctantly. I was ready to leave. Now I feel like I'm still "standing in the doorway", waiting to see whether I should come back in...

You should have spyware in place.
GPS on his car, key logger on his phone and computer

You should trust NOTHING that he is saying. NOTHING.

Wow. I guess I found myself wondering if I had the whole story... but at this point, he literally does nothing besides go to work, come home at lunch, come home at the end of the day (or go to our business). He isn't doing anything recreational at all (hasn't since their connection was broken off). In fact, he said he thinks she is doing the same thing with the guy she runs with now.

Spyware, gps tracking, policing his computer and phone... where I am with it right now is if he is willing to cheat again, then I'm totally done. Like I said, I'm still standing at the door at this point... if he's willing to sacrifice everything twice then I don't want to be part of this anymore. Just where I am now.

Your warnings did make me snap to attention though... I know I was too trusting two years ago when I found the phone records and let him say it was all running encouragement (BS).

I would just rather be alone than be with someone I have to police and cannot trust.

Married couples should share passwords and be accountable to each other in any case. Extraordinary Precautions (EP) will keep you honest. The temptation to do ill is impossible to act on if one operates like this.

We are all capable of having affairs. EP prevents them if done right.