A common theme these days in real life and on these forums. Spouses involved with affairs that began in co-ed Ministries or Worship Teams. I thought this was important enough to have its own thread.

What an incredibly dangerous arena for married couples.
- Significant time spent apart from your spouse
- Often in different cities on ministry trips
- Often a cherished activity shared with others outside the marriage.
- Ample opportunity for "deeper" conversations and interaction
- A sense of security as you are doing "God's Work"
- A charismatic group of people who are easy to follow

A perfect storm of dangers that can quickly overwhelm a spouse with weak boundaries or a marriage in a tough spot.

In my own life I have seen this happen in the worship ministry at our church. A vocalist exposed having an affair with the worship leader. Personally I have had to end 2 friendships with women in the ministry after noticing they were knocking on my boundaries.

I have resigned from the worship ministry because its just too dangerous. My wife means infinitely more to me than any ministry. After our relationship with God the most important thing in our life is our spouse. I plan to keep it that way.

If God is really calling a spouse to ministry, then He's calling both spouses. Maybe one will sing and one will run the sound system, or one will preach and one will play the piano, but they will each have a role that complements and supports the other. One that doesn't leave room for anyone else to come between them.

If the spouses aren't both willing, IMO it's much more likely that God's leading would be in a direction that protects the sacredness of M.

I commend you for doing the right thing!

God couldn't have been more clear what He is looking for when He said that church leaders must be a "one-woman man." They are dedicated to their wife. They do not shove their wives aside and participate in church activities over their wives' objections to the detriment of their families. They are the kind of people who know how to benefit from the wisdom of their spouse and who recognize that restraining themselves from activities their spouse is not enthusiastic about is a BENEFIT because it results in them focusing on the most profitable activities out of the myriads that are available.

When a spouse claims God spoke to them and called them, and the spouse doesn't agree,

the spouse is a false prophet, plain and simple.

In the Old Testament the penalty for false prophecy as stoning. Ignoring the claim of direct divine contact and negotiating respectfully as mere mortals who love and respect each other and can't beat each other over the head with a direct pipeline to God seems much tamer by comparison.

I am going to disagree with this. I LOVE music and my husband isn't musical. I think Joyce does music stuff WITHOUT Dr. Harley. ( Now, like my husband he comes and listens and supports her in it.) So IF both spouses are in agreement, I think it is fine.

That said, I have always had boundries: I never met alone with the music minister or any other opposite sex member of the music team. I don't discuss personal stuff with them. ( I've done that long before I ever heard of this from this ministry. It just seemed smart.)

So if both spouses agree and boundries are in place, I don't see a problem.

Strictly speaking it would fall under Dr. Harley's guidelines for separate recreational activities. (Although a lot of people would balk at calling it recreational. And many want it in a special category that's not subject to POJA.)

Criteria:
* Only if you are each other's favorite recreational companions
* Not with a member of the opposite sex
* Only if your spouse is enthusiastic

The big problem we see, that we need to respond to, is people who claim God "called" them to violate the policy of joint agreement.

If your spouse is not enthusiastic about what you are doing, claiming God told you to do it doesn't give you license to do it any more than claiming the Devil made you do it.

Markos,

I agree with that!! But to say that God calls both spouses to the ministry team or neither isn't reasonable either if the spouse is supportive and has NO musical ability.

Most of us are in marriages where there has already been infidelity. We need a higher standard, because boundaries have been crossed before. That makes us different than the Harleys. We need to be more careful.

tw, your thread in 101 seems to epitomise the problem of a husband putting his ministry before his wife. You have posted there for some time about how lonely you feel in your marriage. There has not been an affair in your marriage, but I'm sorry to say it is still an example of your H neglecting his marriage. Also, I seem to remember discussion on how your own singing activities did not give you enough time to be with him when he was not working the long and irregular hours he works.

I'm really not sure what your point is in coming to this thread to disagree with its central message.

Here's the definitive word from God to those who would neglect their loved ones and excuse themselves by saying that they need to give their time/money/resources to God:

Mark 7:
9 And he continued, "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! 10 For Moses said, 'Honor your father and mother,' and, 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.' 11 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is Corban (that is, devoted to God)- 12 then you no longer let them do anything for their father or mother. 13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."

Matthew 15:
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.' 5 But you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is 'devoted to God,' 6 they are not to 'honor their father or mother' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition."

The message is clear: don't neglect your loved ones and say "God comes first." Putting God first MEANS putting your family first. Starting with your spouse, of course (Genesis 2:24)

Whether the other spouse is supportive or has musical ability is beside the point. The point is that spouses should spend their most enjoyable moments together. That helps to keep their lovebanks full, and prevents others from making deposits. Couples can POJA activities that are harmful to their marriages, so just because a spouse supports the other's behavior, doesn't mean that behavior is good for the marriage. Moreover, even though the Harleys have never experienced marital infidelity, they take the same "extraordinary precautions" they recommend to couples who are trying to recover from affairs.

I tried to make clear that both spouses might not have the same gifts. I sing very well. AJ sings to me only when no one is around, and there's a good reason for that. We still find ways to minister together. He has many gifts that I don't have, and I have many that he doesn't.

That makes us MORE valuable in ministry, not less.

You don't need to have musical ability to be in the worship ministry. I volunteered in the video and broadcast areas.

I saw such dangerous activities almost every weekend. Close personal conversations between opposite sexes, flirting, inappropriate lunches or dinners, etc.

I think this thread speaks truth! My wifes mother left her husband of 20 years for an older man who was part of the worship team. They practiced a lot together .. While ignoring their spouses and met each others needs.

Horrible!

If your going to be part of the church be part of the church together in the same ministry.

MNG

Does Joyce Harley do her singing practice in an co-ed environment when her H is not in the room?

Do you?

Every tiny separation we create in our minds between "OK" and "Not OK" is another step closer to the slippery-slope.

Being "for the church" or "for the congregation" or "glorifying God" is a small token between action and reward/consequence.

It seriously has no difference between "it's just texting" or "it's just Facebook" or "we are just coworkers."

The little tokens of separation are false boundaries, each one a boundary crossing in itself. Each token is another inch closer to the edge.

This is consistent with most behaviors, not just marriage-related behaviors.

You want a safe marriage? Build high walls, not big excuses.

There are two approaches to "the line"

One approach is stay as far away from that line as possible. The other is "how close can I get?"

I suspect those who take the how close can I get approach find themselves on the other side of that line far more often than those who actively try to stay as far as possible from the line.

You can say the same thing about love bank balances. People in great marriages strive to keep their LBs overflowing, whereas others try to get by with occasional lovebusters.