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I am completely new to any type of online forum, especially one dealing with such personal information. I'm not even really sure what led me here other than I'm at my wits end and wondering if I'm making the correct decision for myself and my children or if I'm about to make the largest mistake of my life. To begin my dilemma, I'm a 37 year old father of two, currently married to a woman I met in high school. We have been together for 20 years and married for 13. When we first started dating, it was the typical, youthful, physical attraction that brought us together. She was and is incredibly beautiful. As our relationship progressed into years of dating, I noticed that the intimacy of us was becoming slightly less than what it had been in the beginning. Chalking it up to finishing college, beginning careers, and pending marriage, I didn't put too much stock into the beginnings of the rut I now look back and see developing. Once we were married, I saw some things that I didn't necessarily like in our Marriage, there were discrepancies that I pointed out very early on that fell on deaf ears. For instance, I was routinely asked about what I had spent money on when there were withdrawals from our mutual account. I'm not talking about a large sum of money, $20 here and there, usually averaging $120/month for work related expenses such as eating lunch. I should point out that I never handled the finances and have not made it a habit of asking my wife what she spends money on. At the time we were first married, we both worked full time jobs. There were also questions of me when I wanted to go places with my friends, married men one and all, and received coldness if I wanted to go somewhere "with the guys." Once our first child was born, my wife worked another year and we decided that with my income and working a second, part-time job, she would be able to stay home with our child. I was working over 120 hours every two weeks but never felt run down or tired. I felt appreciation from my wife that she was able to stay home and give our child what both of us had as children, mom at home. Three years after my first, we welcomed a second child into our family. Around this time, I received a promotion at work which substantially reduced the amount of hours I was working at my part-time job. It was also during this time that the double edged sword appeared in our marriage. I was being told on one hand that we were "broke" and on the other that I was not spending enough time at home with the family. This conversation usually happened every two to three months and ended with my point being that we had no money in savings and obviously we spent what I was making. My wife, although frugal, constantly wanted to change picture frames, end tables, decorations, etc for our home. Beautiful and functional was our house, always decorated for the appropriate seasons. However, I found myself in the same cycles of feeling as if I had to defend if I spent any money and being made to feel as if I was neglecting her and the kids if I wanted to go out with my buddies somewhere along the lines of once every two or three months for a night of chicken wings or a baseball game. We didn't lack for family time, constant vacations to theme parks and cruises were a way of life for us. Even on the cruises, I was typically reminded that "we" needed to "be careful with money because we're broke." Again, looking back, she had no problem dropping $150 on pictures from the cruise line but if I wanted an excursion, we needed to be "frugal." I noticed that weekends and time off were being planned for me and if I stated that I didn't necessarily care to do something, I began hearing "forget it, we just won't go." Rather than endure ice at home or my wife being angry, I'd acquiesce and go along with the program. Ironically, 95% or more of the time, I was perfectly happy to go along with the program. About two years after my youngest was born, my wife began falling asleep on the couch quite often. Initially, this went on 1-2 nights a week with her saying she was too tired to come to bed. I didn't think much of it, she was home taking care of two children and had begun homeschooling our oldest. About 2 1/2 years ago, the opportunity came up for me to purchase our dream home, so we did. We moved in and the additional expense wasn't anything we couldn't handle. What I did notice was that my opinion on even the smallest detail seemed to be overlooked. The one that sticks out most to me was where I wanted to situate an item outside that was 100% mine. I selected an area and she told me she didn't like it there and gave me multiple reasons why i should move it. I explained why I wanted the item where I'd placed it (not like it was a flock of flamingos or anything) and said I wanted it left where it was. A simple request, or so I thought. 9 months later, I came out of the shower to find where she and a family member had moved my stuff from where I put it and placed the item where she originally wanted it. I felt like my opinion didn't matter to her one bit and said as much. She told me I was over reacting and that I should give it some time and she was sure I'd like it where she placed it. Finally, our intimate life, which was never as fulfilling as I'd have liked, went to almost nothing. She was sleeping on the couch 3-4 nights per week, falling asleep by 9:00 on nights I was home, and seeming not to want to spend any alone time with me whatsoever. Many were the nights I'd ask her to have our children sleep at her parents' house so we could have date night. It usually ended up with our youngest coming home with her because the youngest didn't want to stay with the grandparents and me being told that "we can be alone after" our youngest went to sleep. That mostly parlayed into my wife falling asleep on the couch with a "wake me up in the morning" statement. Those evenings made me feel less like I was wanted and more like I was tolerated. Date night usually was only 2 or 3 hours total from dropping the kids off to picking them up and included calls to check on the kids from her. Whenever I'd bring up these issues, I felt as if I was being dismissed. I felt that I didn't have respect or consideration from my wife. She would call me several times a day at work and, if I was busy, would prompt me to call her back as soon as possible. If I asked her to go ahead and tell me what she needed, we'd discuss why I should just call her when I had time. If I was really tied up, I'd send my phone to voicemail and, more often than not, I'd have my cell begin ringing, then the office phone again, then the cell. When I'd answer thinking something surely was going on with the kids, I'd get "it's not that big a deal" or "I really need you to talk." 9 times out of 10, it was nothing that couldn't have waited until I got home or done via text. When I left one job heading to another, my wife began to get irritated if I didn't call her en route from one to the other. She'd call and ask where I was. Sometimes, I'd use the transit to complete the days' business and sometimes for a little down time. Her standard response was "I just wanted to make sure you're safe." Same applied when I'd leave my second job and head home for the night. If I hadn't called by 9:30, she was calling. I felt like my every move was being planned or controlled or dictated or support was being doled out sparingly, as was intimacy. We began to have arguments regularly, with me beginning to stand my ground on a few things. I was met with resistance. She left me for 3 days and went to her parents' house, telling me she wasn't coming home until I called her. I didn't and she came home to me telling her that I didn't think we'd work out anymore. I was barraged with the fact that this wasn't about her, that I had emotional issues, was going through a mid-life crisis, etc. So, I went to counseling on my own. She opted to go counsel with our Pastor. Every day or so I was hit with comments like "can't you see what all I'm doing to make things better?" and the like. In reality, everything she was doing was what I told her I wanted things to be like but when I asked her if she understood why I wanted them that way, her standard reply to me was "things weren't that bad." About 9 months ago, I couldn't take the tension in the house and moved out. I'm still paying all the bills at the house as well as my own living expenses. Surprisingly to me, I'm able to do this, which reinforced my belief that we weren't as "broke" as I was led to believe. I feel foolish for not paying attention to the finances better and take full responsibility for that. I moved out about 9 months ago because I couldn't deal with being told how much she was "doing" without feeling that she understood why I was asking her to be different towards me. We tried marriage counseling and his take was for me to forget the past and give it another shot. I asked over and over for her to explain to me why some of the disparities in our marriage were there and she retreated into saying that she had "answered those questions a thousand times." My kids, both under the age of 10, seem to be doing well to mommy and daddy living apart, but they want reconciliation. Bottom line is that I do love her, wish she would recognize what I want, and be willing to approach her changes as I approached mine in my individual therapy. I'm not perfect by any means, but I swore to myself that I wouldn't live the rest of my life feeling unappreciated and used. I feel as if her lifestyle is what she became accustomed to and any attempt on my part to change the way we were operating as a family fell on deaf ears. So I find myself in the midst of divorce proceedings that she doesn't want. I was 99.99% sure that I was ready but I'm having second thoughts at this point. I'm confused and wish the problem could be fixed. However, I don't know how to get her to really understand what I'm trying to say. When I asked about swapping counselors to a psychologist or psychiatrist instead of a "certified counselor", her response was that I was just searching for someone who would back up my desire for divorce. Any thoughts would be much appreciated. My friends and family are supportive of both of us, but each has their own bias based on their relationships with my wife and I.

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Welcome to MB.

If neither of you want the divorce then why don't you learn MB and make your marriage better?

Have read the basic concepts?


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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BrainHurts...thank you for your interest and input. We went to counseling and did work our way through many of the basic concepts that I have read on this site. The five love languages and also discussing what our Pastor referred to as our respective "love tanks." What I'm having such an issue with is that it took over a year of us talking/arguing, coupled with counseling, for her to admit to me that she actually saw that she treated me differently than I did her. She has said to me numerous times that she felt as if I was "choosing my friends over (her) when ASKING to go out." Again, I'm not talking once a week or even once a month; however, when she would mention to me that she had a girls' day planned, my comment has never been anything but "go have a good time." She doesn't seem to believe me when I told her that being rejected intimately over and over was crushing to my ego and self esteem. Before I wrote off even suggesting alone time with her, I would try to initiate over and over only to get rebuffed. One night a month of intimacy with my wife was standard, two was a great month. Her response to my telling her that my needs were not being met was: "that's the most hurtful thing you've ever said to me." I'm just not sure what to do with that....

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Confused,

It seems that you enjoyed living together before marriage and wanted to continue that renter relationship after being married.
Renter type relationships usually fail.
Dr Harley addresses this in his book Buyers Renters Freeloaders.

The great news is that your wife doesn't want divorce!

Let me ask you: Would you like to have a loving, romantic relationship with the mother of your children?

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Confused13,

Most marriage counseling is usually very unhelpful to marriages and can even be destructive. Did you know that about 84% of all MC fails? It doesn't result in a better marriage and many end up divorced in spite of it.

Five Love Languages is often used in Christian MC, but it's not effective or clear-cut like Marriage Builders.

MB starts with the foundation of the Policy of Joint Agreement and the Policy of Radical Honesty. You two don't seem to have ever considered each other's feelings in making decisions. The POJA: Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse.

Another very important policy of MB is to spend a minimum of 15 hours together without children or friends, doing things that are enjoyable to the both of you. The fifteen hours isn't some arbitrary number of hours. Dr. Harley has completed much research on all aspects of marriage and found that 15 hours is about what it takes to maintain the romantic love in marriage.

Learning to meet each other's needs and avoiding all love busters is essential to falling, and staying, in love. While every person is individual, Dr. Harley found that most women have similar emotional needs: Intimate Conversation, Affection, Family Commitment, Financial Support, and Honesty and Openness.

Men have a different set of ENS: Sexual Fulfillment, Recreational Companionship, Physical Attractiveness, Domestic Support, and Admiration.

If you meet your wife's top two ENs, she will likely be in love with you again. This in turn will help her to feel bonded to you and she will enjoy meeting your needs for RC and SF.

Move back home and start reading up on all the basic concepts here. You will need to institute ALL of them, not just some of them. You can start priming the pump and employing the MB principles on your own to get started.



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Here's a good article about building a great marriage >> How to Create Your Own Plan to Resolve Conflicts and Restore Love to Your Marriage


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Originally Posted by Confused13
BrainHurts...thank you for your interest and input. We went to counseling and did work our way through many of the basic concepts that I have read on this site. The five love languages and also discussing what our Pastor referred to as our respective "love tanks."

Originally Posted by Confused13
What I'm having such an issue with is that it took over a year of us talking/arguing, coupled with counseling, for her to admit to me that she actually saw that she treated me differently than I did her.

I treat my H differently from the way he treats me, too. That would be normal in a marriage where each person is meeting the needs of the other, since the spouse's needs are usually different from the other's needs.

Originally Posted by Confused13
She has said to me numerous times that she felt as if I was "choosing my friends over (her) when ASKING to go out." Again, I'm not talking once a week or even once a month; however, when she would mention to me that she had a girls' day planned, my comment has never been anything but "go have a good time."

Your wife didn't want you going out without her, even if it was only occasionally and with other married men. In MB, this would result in going to the default position, which is doing nothing. This would mean you would have to stay home until she is enthusiastic about it or until you both found a solution that would make you both happy.

Most women need the 15 hours of UA time more than their husbands do in order to maintain their romantic love. Men can get by with far less. This may be why you didn't mind when she goes out without you but she doesn't like it when you go out without her.

Originally Posted by Confused13
She doesn't seem to believe me when I told her that being rejected intimately over and over was crushing to my ego and self esteem. Before I wrote off even suggesting alone time with her, I would try to initiate over and over only to get rebuffed. One night a month of intimacy with my wife was standard, two was a great month. Her response to my telling her that my needs were not being met was: "that's the most hurtful thing you've ever said to me." I'm just not sure what to do with that....

Most men have a craving for sex that must only be met by their wives. However, for a woman to want to make love with her H, she needs to feel bonded to him.

In order for a woman to feel bonded with her H, they need to spend time together enjoying intimate conversation. He should be showing his care for her by being affectionate in ways that she likes. Dr. Harley recommends that couples first spend three hours together on a date, and the husband must be conversing intimately with his wife, BEFORE making love. Also, she should fully enjoy each sexual experience.

The first thing you need to do, since you're here and she's not, is to figure out what LBs you are doing and eliminate them. Start spending time with your wife without the children, on dates that you would both enjoy.


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LongWay...thank you for your posts. Some of your statements are very much on the mark. I understand what you're saying with respect to men and women having different needs. My point is that I feel as if I was paying attention to my wife's needs, those of financial support,conversation, complimenting her every day on something (be it how nice the house looked, thanking her for dinner, or doing the laundry), and not hiding where I was or who I was with anytime she asked. I feel as though I had to justify my spending, my desires to go places, my whereabouts....and those were restrictions I did not expect nor place on my wife. As for the mutual acceptance of my going somewhere, I was given a sigh and a myriad of reasons why I should turn down the offer to go hang out somewhere, even at a friend's home. I would even be questioned if I took longer at a store than she believed I should be gone from home. I have never been unfaithful to my wife and feel as if there was either an issue of trust or one of control that manifested itself with respect to finances and being able to go off with the guys a few times a year. I feel as if I could go or spend money, but I was going to have to deal with her irritation at my actions. I'm a little unclear on how it would work if one spouse doesn't have an issue with the other having time to cultivate and nurture friendships but the other doesn't want their spouse to spend or go and do without it being a family event.

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Jedi.....I would love for my children not to become children of divorce. My dilemma is that my wife will say "I have a controlling personality, that's who I am" or "I know 'x' wasn't fair to you but I wanted it this way" or "I wanted you home with me." Those statements have left me feeling that she wasn't thinking of my needs and that as long as she huffed or iced me out, she knew I'd knuckle under. When I stopped being that guy and began standing up for something I wanted or did not want to do, I was told that I'm "mean and hateful" and that"she doesn't know who (I) am anymore." All I've wanted is to be shown respect without having to demand it or cajole her.

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I agree that it is not in the best Interest of your kids to divorce.

The Relationship you describe is not MB modeled.

Would you be willing to try the Marriage Builders system for 3 months and put the divorce on hold during this time?

If not for your own needs just for the kids this time?

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Jedi....for my children's sake, I'd do anything. I understand that you aren't a counselor, but I'll ask the question regardless: how am I to get the point across that the way things were for me in our marriage were really "that bad" for me? According to her, "everyone" doesn't know why I am doing this, behaving as if she were "terrible." I have not uttered that word, I merely pointed out the discrepancies in our relationship and said I wasn't going to remain in that place. She believes that she has "done everything" to resolve the issues between us and that I am the one who is unreceptive to her "changes." I am expected to acknowledge that she has been hurt, which I have admitted to behaving in a hurtful way, yet when I ask to discuss ways she was complicit, she steers things back to her emotional pain. Typically this is done by "I know I did things to hurt you, but...." We have yet to have a conversation that solely deals with my emotional pain and tables hers for conversation at a later time. I've even suggested that we spend one session together discussing her pain first and mine another day. She had no issue with her session, but when the time came for her to be open and receptive to what I was feeling, I received explanations immediately for everything I said was bothering me and an awful lot of twisting my feelings back to how they affected her emotionally. I don't know how to overcome that obstacle and the counselor was of no help in that area. Any suggestions on this or direction on where I could find something on this site that addresses it? Thank you for taking the time to read my situation and replying to me.

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C13,
MB is for you and your wife. Marriages have been saved literally from the depths of hell with this program.

It will take time and a retooling of your understanding of relationships, marriage, parenting, etc. but it's ALL here.

Start with fervently pouring over the basic concepts here. Listen to the radio show every day. Pick up His Needs Her Needs asap and read. When possible encourage your wife to take this journey with you, but you may have to simply lead by example for now - any attempts to cajole her with this material will be viewed as further "contolling."

Most of all focus on Lovebusters -- identify the ones you tend to engage in and concentrate on eliminating them from your life, in relationships all around you with your kids, parents, wife, coworkers, etc.

After a period of time (months -- you will need quite the resolve, because she is going to stay in her current state of withdrawal) she will stop viewing you as a threat, and she might open her lovebank back up to you.

You'll find that Dr. Harley does not advocate dwelling on history. Better to just agree that you both were unhappy and start building today a marriage that neither of you ever thought possible. We tend to color our view of the past by our current mood anyway, so it's not even usually an accurate representation of the state of affairs. Let it go and move on to better, more gratifying and satisfying pastures.
\
And you're sure there's no current infedelity?

opt


Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01)
Divorce from WW final 9/16/10.
Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10)
Mine: S(16), D(11)
NatureGirls: S(23), D(21)
Another EA Story
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I will check out the areas you mentioned and see what comes of it. As it relates to infidelity, I have never been unfaithful to my wife. With some of the disconnect I felt from her, it made me wonder but I don't believe she's capable or rather has the desire to stray.

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Originally Posted by Confused13
I will check out the areas you mentioned and see what comes of it. As it relates to infidelity, I have never been unfaithful to my wife. With some of the disconnect I felt from her, it made me wonder but I don't believe she's capable or rather has the desire to stray.

Great! read a lot and try to absorb the information. Once you start getting the hang of the ideas (and eliminating old paradigms) you will see how beneficial this program, the concepts, and behaviors can be in your life and all your relationships (obviously, especially your marriage).

We always have to ask about infidelity, because as you'll read here, Dr. Harley states taht as humans we are all wired for infidelity and all are subseptible in the right circumstances (while NONE of us are subseptible if we can stay away from those circumstances).

Basic Concepts, listen to the radio show, and get His Needs Her Needs.
focus on LoveBusters in basic concepts. Your wife will never be in love with you if you are engaging in lovebusters - they drain the love bank.

opt


Me: 43 y.o. BFWH, D-day 11/11/09 (NC since 9/01)
Divorce from WW final 9/16/10.
Current Status: MB-based Marriage to Nature Girl 12/8/12 (first date on 12/11/10)
Mine: S(16), D(11)
NatureGirls: S(23), D(21)
Another EA Story
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C13,
I would also suggest you edit your first post. Try to break it up into paragraphs as people will want to rereference it if they are inclined to make any suggestions.

I just read some of the responses again also. You have some very very good suggestions here already. Enough to keep you busy for some time. JK is right -- you need to understand the Renter's Mentlity and the curse of living together before marriage. If you understand the issue, you will have a better chance to overcome it. So, I also suggest "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders" and the article on this site about the Curse of Living Together Before Marriage (this is not just Dr. Harley -- the stats are dismal and 80% of domestic abuse happens in these households).

Try to introduce the concept to your wife that you have been doing things your way for many years and neither of you feel as happy as you would like to. Therefore, perhaps it's time to get out an instruction manual and try things a different way. MB has been proven over and over to save marriages. It actually works because it is based on behavioral modifications, and behavior is what makes us fall in love (not looks, or promises, or words, or mystical connections).

If you continue with "counseling" (not recommended), please get a very clear picture of whether or not your counselor actually has a PLAN to help you save your marriage. Or is it more of a "take your insurance money for 16 weeks and then help you comee to an amicable divorce.......'for the kids' benefit'?" mad

Oh, practically all this program is free, you can get the books used, you can listen to the show for free, you can write doctor harley for free, even be on the show if you chose. We all volunteer our time for folks like you because we were once in your shoes.

Good luck, One-Three. smile


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I don't know how to overcome that obstacle and the counselor was of no help in that area. Any suggestions on this or direction on where I could find something on this site that addresses it?

"Honey, I totally agree our marriage has not been what we would have both hoped. Let's leave it in the past and start over with a real plan that's been proven to help people like us. I think I have found us some help. Would you be willing to learn about it with me and try the concepts for certain period of time, say 3 months?"

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Confused,

I suggest you click "notify" and get your post moved over to the Marriage Builders 101 section of the forum. Most of the people actively providing help don't look into this section as often; you will get better help there.


If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!

Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8.
Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010

If your wife is not on board with MB, some of my posts to other men might help you.
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I'll likely respond more to some of the additional posts that you all have been so gracious to leave for my benefit. One major point of clarification that I overlooked.....we DID NOT reside together prior to marriage.

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Originally Posted by Confused13
Again, I'm not talking once a week or even once a month; however, when she would mention to me that she had a girls' day planned, my comment has never been anything but "go have a good time." She doesn't seem to believe me when I told her that being rejected intimately over and over was crushing to my ego and self esteem. Before I wrote off even suggesting alone time with her, I would try to initiate over and over only to get rebuffed. One night a month of intimacy with my wife was standard, two was a great month. Her response to my telling her that my needs were not being met was: "that's the most hurtful thing you've ever said to me." I'm just not sure what to do with that.....

confused, you are very much in the right place and we can help you turn this around. I didn't read your initial post [too long and no paragraphs] but I have gleaned the source of the problem from reading your subsequent posts. What has happened is that you and your wife have created an incompatible marriage by coming to win/lose solutions. Both you and your wife have engaged in sacrifice, which is a disaster in marriage.

When she told you what bothered her, her wishes were dismissed and ignored as "unreasonable," which caused her to fall out of love. When a woman falls out of love, she loses all desire to have sex with her husband. A complaint in marriage is simply a warning that you are losing love bank deposits in your account in her love bank. It is like getting an over draft notice from the back. You might not like getting the notice, but the alternative is worse. For that reason, a complaint is an irritation in a bad marriage and an opportunity for improvement in a good marriage.

Some key problems I see are incompatibility that was caused by your independent behavior. If you would, check out these articles and come back and lets talk:

Following the Policy of Joint Agreement When You're VERY Incompatible

Independent Behavior


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by Confused13
I'll likely respond more to some of the additional posts that you all have been so gracious to leave for my benefit. One major point of clarification that I overlooked.....we DID NOT reside together prior to marriage.
Okay C13. Good to hear you didn't make the mistake of living together before you got married. Sorry I jumped to that conclusion.
As Melody mentioned, your first post does pose some difficulty in interpreting as it is not broken up, so you may still consider an editing session.

opt

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