Bottom Line Up Front:

Are there circumstances where it is ok to allow the WS to communicate sporadically with the OM? Dr. Harley's concepts appear tried and true, but it seems by following the no contact rule, my WS will always have a space in her heart for the OM. I want him out. I think allowing her to see him in the light of day will help her to see the man he really is and be over him because of it.

The Whole Deal:

Well, I read Dr. Harley's, Surviving an Affair, and as much of the articles and posts her on MB as I could. I didn't just want to post my story right away even though I really wanted to vent.

Twice now my wife (of 15 years) has cheated on me, the first time when I was deployed, and just recently when I had to move to an new duty station 2 months before my family (while the kids finished the school year).

Both experiences were the most painful in my life. I have tried to find words to describe the pain, but fail every time. It was the most horrible, gut wrenching, and inconsolable pain I've ever felt.

I'll move right past the first affair. The only take away is that afterward, there was a lot of fighting, apologies, and promises to do better. However we didn't really explore and repair what actually caused the affair. We certainly didn't read any books or draft up any Joint Agreements or such. BIG Mistake...That's why we are in the same mess again.

The second affair was harder for both of us. She actually "fell in love" with the OM, an anesthesiologist at the hospital she worked at. It was mostly an EA, but there was one night where she did sleep with him. During the later stages of the EA (post PA), she had already moved with the family to our new home. She was obviously VERY unhappy about our marriage but claimed that she wanted to work on it. As background, my last duty station was a sea duty, I was away half the time, and when I was home, I worked 70 hour weeks (so I think I can respect her being miserable, I was too). However, she really wasn't working on anything. She was completely stonewalling me on pretty much everything. She agreed to go to counseling with me and for a bit, things started to feel like they were working. We even went on a family vacation where we shared some of the best intimate time we ever had. Then BAM!, one day she just shuts down again and tells me about this man who she had feelings for at the previous location. Her words were, "I feel very deeply for him". Then comes the trickle truth...four days later, I knew everything. It made so much sense now why she was stonewalling...she had already fallen in love with another man and didn't want to give me the chance.

I was pretty sure I wouldn't be able to get past this one. The first time, she hadn't fallen in love, this time she did. After all the sacrifices we made for each other, how could she just spit in my face by doing this again?

She agreed to stop communicating with the OM and focus on fixing us. We both read Surviving an Affair and various other articles. With so much to work on, we focused first on radical honesty and UA, which is infinitely easier in my new duty.

The problem is that she is still holding on to the OM emotionally and she still has reservations about our future together...like there are still some walls up.

I know I went off the reservation a bit two days ago when I was traveling to my previous duty station. I wanted to meet the OM, and potentially forgive him (He was an older, lonely fellow, who felt really crappy about what he did). He of course didn't want to meet, said he was too ashamed to face me. That's ok, I expected as much. But I also wanted to give him the opportunity to contact my WS on a limited basis. She asked me for this, and even though it is completely contrary to Dr. Harley's process, I felt it was necessary for her to realize that she didn't actually love him. I wanted to force the death of the EA, which right now is on life support but she holds on, still living in the secretive fantasy of what she thought the relationship was. Letting her talk to this shameful, embarrassed, older man could be what she needs to realize what a chump he was. Anyway, after I tried to meet him, and he refused I emailed him. I told him my wife was suffering the loss of a good friend, and was emotionally devastated over the whole thing. And, I wanted to give her the opportunity to close the whole thing out by emailing him platonically on a periodic basis (I would monitor all communications). He responds that it might not be a good idea...FOR HIM. This guy is smart turns out...it's probably not. Later I showed these emails to my wife, hoping she will notice in every email he sent me, not once did he consider HER feelings, or address any remorse over the pain SHE was feeling. What I thought was a slam dunk, sort of turned out quite the opposite. She assumes that he didn't want to upset me by bringing her feelings up. She wants to think that he still cares deeply for her.

I just want her to realize that the dude got lucky. He found a beautiful young nurse that he could compliment and court. Someone to IM until all hours of the evening to fill his lonely hours. But as soon as he realized I wasn't giving her up...POOF!...he was ready to walk. How could she love a man like that? Further, how can she not realize the devastation she could have caused to the very good life we could have, and immediately lower all walls and jump into fixing our marriage. I'm ready to fix this thing, but something is still holding her back a bit.

Long way to ask a simple question I guess, but again:

Are there circumstances where it is ok to allow the WS to communicate sporadically with the OM? Dr. Harley's concepts appear tried and true, but it seems by following the no contact rule, my WS will always have a space in her heart for the OM. I want him out. I think allowing her to see him in the light of day will help her to see the man he really is and be over him because of it.

MadMindMonkey

Monkey;

Nope, total NC is the ONLY way to go.

Your wife is addicted to the high she gets off any contact with OM. The only way to treat addiction is to remove the source of the addiction completely... I.e., NC for life.

I wondered the same thing as you... Will my spouse still have love feelings for the affair partner in the future? For ever? I doubted I could live with that.

It is now one year post D-day for us, and now my fWH says he has no love feelings for OW. This has been a revelation to him, because throughout the A, and after D-Day, his heart ached for her. Though he doesn't hate her now, he has no interest in her.

He also says that without total NC, he could not stop himself from the addiction. No matter how much she spurned him, he could not get himself away. He HAD to go NC before he could get out from under the addiction.

We tried not going total NC for 5 months. It was disastrous. Total NC is the ONLY way forward, Monkey.

MMM, I'm sorry for the pain that brought you here to MB.

Here are the conditions for recovery after an affair:

1.) No contact for life with the adultery partner. What will happen is that, over time, as your wife agrees to NC and is held accountable by you for this, the love she holds for the OM will dwindle away. No contact is the only way to start recovery.

Continued contact with the OM, sporadic or not, will give your wife a fix of her addiction which will make it impossible for her to restore the love for you. Not only that, but contact in any form with him will be a terrible offense to you

2.) Extraordinary Precautions: integrated and transparent life together; no nights apart, shared passwords, accountability for time and money. ALL the conditions of the A must be eliminated.

Did you know that the profession your wife has selected has a high risk of adultery? If you and she plan for her to continue in her profession, she should find a position where she works with only women.

Your military career makes your marriage very high risk. Separations are terrible for even strong marriages. You should never be separated again.

3.) A program of recovery that will restore the marriage to one that is better, much better, than pre-affair.

You should continue to snoop and make sure your wife never contacts the OM again.

Are you being the absolute best man you can be right now? No love busters? Meeting your wife's emotional needs? Is your UA time a minimum of 15 hours per week, preferably more due to the fragile state of your marriage? Is your UA time the most enjoyable time of your week and your wife's?

You don't understand what you are doing, my friend. Does an alcoholic withdraw from alcohol by sitting in the bar and drinking on a "limited basis" or does he withdraw by staying out of the bar and abstaining from drinking? I assure you it is the latter. Every time she sees, emails or speaks to the OM, her feelings for him will be TRIGGERED. The affair will grow and thrive. Do you want that?

The way for her to overcome her feelings for the OM is for her to keep him out of her life and fill that VACUUM with something else. That something ELSE should be a romantic marriage WITH YOU.

The reason your wife has affairs [and she will have more unless you GET this and change the circumstances] is because you don't spend enough time with her and she has fallen out of love. That has left her wide open to fall in love with other people. She fell in love with the OM.

We can help you save your marriage, but you are going to have to put aside your own ideas of "recovery" and listen to us. Your ideas will lead to the certain death of your marriage.

Thank You for your insight.

1) I know that's the right answer. I do love her very much though and hate to see her in pain. She is very much like an addict in this affair. I ask myself if it would be ok to allow a quick fix, just to ease the pain of withdrawal? I know it's risky but I thought if I could act as the messenger for their communications, it would work. I guess that will just prolong (or completely derail) the recovery.

2) EPs. That one's harder. I have already committed to not being away anymore. It's sort of career suicide, but if I get orders to a job that will have us separated, I will turn them down. But I can't expect her to find a job in a specific environment. I would LOVE for her to not work in a hospital. She's extremely attractive, there is always flirting going on, doctor's with money to throw around, and IMO a general disregard for stable marriages (just doesn�t feed the gossip machine, I guess). She has made so many sacrifices to support me in my career, I just can't ask her to choose a job that is less affair prone. Actually, that would be a pretty big Love Buster for me to do that. I am trying to avoid anything that has the potential to build additional resentment on top of the sacrifices she has already made. Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE for her to come to that conclusion herself, I just can�t push it.

As for the others, I believe (and she agrees when not clouded by the EA) I am meeting her emotional needs. Following the questionnaire, it turns out I need to work on recreational companionship, intimate conversation, and admiration. The companionship and conversation come pretty easy now that we are getting around 20 hours per week UA. They are my favorite 20 hours. She is being extremely and refreshingly honest, and I find that kind of hot. The admiration is hard. It's just difficult to admire someone who has intentionally and ruthlessly hurt me so deeply. I suppose I'll come around to that, once she completely kicks �what's his name� out of her heart.

I do need to do more work on the Love Busters. She has such deep resentment about the past, specifically my judgmental comments, that she immediately registers some of my openness and honesty as hurtful. If I'm not extremely cautious, I end up taking a withdrawal while I'm making a deposit. I hope that gets easier, I hate walking on eggshells. I think after a while she will realize I have no intention of hurting her anymore, but right now that's her first instinct.

I don't think you understand. She did love him. I think it is necessary for you to realize that. That's how the Love Bank works.

It is crucial in recovery for you to make love bank deposits and become the man she loves. That will be impossible if she still has contact with him.

Trying to re-educate your wife and get her to "realize" that her feelings were not what she thought they were is disrespectful and is a love bank withdrawal.

It is far more important for you to realize that she DID actually love him. Trying to invalidate her feelings is not a path to recovery, and it is actually disrespectful.

These will go away over time as you make love bank deposits. It takes awhile, it takes persistence.

It also takes a great attention to ELIMINATING love busters.

And it takes a great attention to making sure the time you spend together is enough, and really is enjoyable to her.

Can you give us an example of some of your openness and honesty that was hurtful to her? It is very easy to be disrespectful without realizing it. (You've already done it at least once on this thread!)

We can help you see if you are being disrespectful and learn to make your complaints in a respectful way.

It is best to stick to these formulas:

I would like it if you ...
I love it when you ...
It bothers me when you ...

Notice how every one of them focuses on the present and not the past, focuses on her behavior and not her feelings or motivations, and registers your feelings about her behavior.

My wife achieved all of that with no-contact. A couple of months after contact ended, as she became close to me again (thanks to my love bank deposits), she expressed how she had realized just what a loser and predator he was. But we would've been fine even if we'd never talked about it again.

It won't happen if you are making love bank withdrawals. It won't happen if you aren't spending enough time together. It won't happen if the time you spend together is not enjoyable enough for her. It won't happen if you fight.

MMM, that is a great place to start. You can't fill her lovebank if you are draining it with lovebusters.

In the meantime, there are very specific steps that must be taken in order to affair proof your marriage and prevent another affair.

1. expose her affair. Your family, close friends and children should all be told about her affair. If her OM is married, his wife should be informed. This should be done by you. The reason for exposure is this is one of the most important first steps towards recovery. The more people who know, the more people to hold her accountable and the more people to support you. Dr. Harley is a clinical psychologist with 40 years experience saving marriages and here is what he says:


2. send a no contact letter to this dirtbag. The letter should be written by her, approved by you, and mailed together. Additionally, I would suggest you contact him and tell him to never ever contact your wife again. I will post a suggested letter in the next post.

3. She needs to find another occupation that will not leave her vulnerable to affairs. This is an extraordinary precaution that is taken to avoid a future affair. For example, if she is a nurse, she can work in a female doctors office or some other environment where she is not tempted to have an affair. Her "resentment" is not the concern here.. The biggest concern is YOUR resentment if she continues to have affairs. Protecting you from repeat affairs is not negotiable.

4. I would read Dr Harley's article about forgiveness and his policy of just compensation: Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

Do you have Dr Harley's book, Surviving an Affair?

here


[from SAA, pg 58]

OW, I want you to know that out of respect and love for my wife and children, I have come to realize that I must never see or talk to you again. My relationship with you was a cruel indulgence that BS did not deserve. While I cannot completely repay BS for the pain I caused her, I will do my best to become the husband she has been missing. I care a great deal for my family and I would not want to do anything to risk their happiness. I will not make any further contact with you and I do not want you to make any contact with me. Please respect my desire to end our relationship.

Sincerely, XXXXX

Yes, you can and you SHOULD. Anything that is bad for your marriage should be eliminated. Her current working environment is bad for your marriage.

Wow! Thank you for your directness. This is why I posted. I need someone to smack some sense into me.

I will say that I feel confident that now that we are actually spending alot of time together, it has become very obvious to her why she fell in love with me in the first place. She is well on her way of getting back there (and hopefully further).

I like our odds, but just knowing that she will always have a place in her heart for him is tough. How many times today did she think of him? What did she think about? When the first affair ended, she hated the dude. I wish it was the same this time. I wish she could see how ugly a man has to be to engage a young, pretty wife of a deployed military man in an affair. Seems pretty unattractive to me. I feel like that would be pretty easy to realize what a loser he is. But I guess it's different in her addictive fantasy.

In time, if No Contact remains in place and you are filling her lovebank, she will not think of him at all.

This is part of why No Contact for life is crucial.

She cannot see him for what he is because he is a drug to her. She is addicted to him. He gave her a high.

She may come to hate him someday, when she is sober. She may come to see him for what a louse he is.

She might not.

And even if she doesn't, if you follow the program, you can STILL recover and have a better marriage than what you had before.

That makes sense. My "turning on the light" for her to see him as the world might, is very judgemental and invalidates her feelings. I won't do that again. Thanks.

At other times, I really can't give specifics. Last night we were talking and she just clammed up. I think we were talking about my emotional needs and she felt like a failure for not meeting some of them. I should have immediately stopped and thought about my exact words. If it happens tonight during our generally wonderful UA, I'll write them down and share. But it would be better if I just avoid the Love Buster in the first place.

Yes, start taking note of what you said when she clams up, and let us know specifically. If you were talking about your emotional needs, there's a very good chance you did say something that she finds disrespectful.

It is best to keep UA talk enjoyable. If you have an unmet need, it's best to follow Dr. Harley's program of exchanging weekly worksheets about those. This can help such a highly emotional topic safe, and keep it out of what should be a fun time for you both.

Ask her to write down your lovebusters for you. You need to know what SHE sees as disrespectful.

Ahh. I think I need to reread about UA. We are getting plenty of it but we are mixing fun stuff with more emotionally charged discussion. We sometimes notice how it's going great and all of the sudden it's weird. We've been able to recognize this and back away but it may be better to schedule a separate time to talk on subjecs specific to recovery. Problem is, I don't think I have 15 hours worth of non-emotioanlly charged topics to talk about. Maybe less talking and more doing is in order.

I wish I would have posted before I contacted the OM. Now I've got one more dragon to slay.

This will help.
The Critical Importance of Undivided Attention