While I realize MB totally supports marriage in a long term loving relationship, but have to realize there are disadvantages to a legal tie to another.

I strongly feel that if kids are not involved, that a commitment to each other can be stronger and better than a legal tie. Especially considering the large number of marriages that fail regardless and end up in a legal mess.

Of the several friends that long term non marital relationships, they seem to be doing as well or better than our married friends. All of these people are over 40 and dependent kids are not in the picture.

Any reason this can't be a good long term solution?

A genuine commitment is not one that avoids the legal tie, though. That is illogical. If a couple seeks to avoid that tie, they are not making a real commitment.

The solution to the large number of marriages that fail does not necessitate seeing marriage itself as the problem. The obvious solution is to make marriages into loving and happy arrangements. Married people who are in love with each other do not get divorced!

The obvious and only advantage to not having a legal tie is that you can just walk away. That is what people are choosing when they choose not to marry. That is the opposite of a "commitment to each other".

It is impossible to have any kind of a philosophical discussion on the value of marriage when you are in the middle of an affair!

Affairages have terrible success rates, but I seriously doubt that bypassing marriage as a mechanism toward having a more successful long term affair would be better. If you are looking for a way to transform your affair into some kind of permanent stable relationship, I don't think we can help you. The reason why affairages don't work out isn't based on a flaw in the concept of marriage. Rather, they fail because the fantasy can't survive the light of reality.

There are alot of reasons. Mainly because the facts won't support your theory. First off, a shack up relationship is not a commitment so it can't be said that it is MORE of a commitment. If I go test drive a car and never sign any papers and never pay a dime, am I "committed" or am I just test driving?

A much higher # of shack up relationships fail than marriages. There is a 50% divorce rate in marriages but 85% in marriages that began shacking up. There is an astronomical number of split ups in shack up situtions. Marriages that begin by shacking up, have an 85% divorce rate. That is because of the poor traits they develop while shacking up become WORSE when married. Something like 80% of all domestic violence occurs in relationships that either ARE shacking up or DID shack up.

So no, shacking up is not a good solution. They are tentative renters relationships that are characterized by violence and abuse.

Agree. People who shack up just walk away when problems arise in the relationship rather than fixing the problems. They are very much like renters. Since they have no investment in the relationship, they walk away rather than make necessary repairs.

Melody,

You make a very good point, however one can walk away from marriage, too. And does happen, the only main difference is the legal problems one faces and the lawyer bills. And even with a 50% chance of failure, I could make an argument to stay single. Just as a point, every one that has posted on this thread has had a failed marriage.

I'm not against marriage, I just don't believe it's for everyone, nor is it a must for a good and loving relationship with your mate. And, sure, just like marriage, people have to work at a relationship, and sure looks like Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts can be applied here, too. Perhaps his concepts were developed only for married couples, but I find them valuable for any serious relationship.

Yes, there are many people out there with great and loving marriages, and I'm sure all of us here clearly had the intent of a successful one the first time we got married. I really thought my was forever, and worked very hard at it, and it was great for the first 15 to 20 years or so. When things turned, I got help and spend years of counseling and 10s of thousands of dollars to solve problems. Didn't happen, and gave up the life I expected pretty much over 5 years ago. So where did that get me? Her, too, I know her life is miserable.

I'll not say never say never, but at this point in my life, I don't see marriage as any benefit at all, and haven't for at least 10 years. However, I do like the food for thought. Who knows, perhaps something in the future will change my mind, but don't think so.

Everyone who has posted on your thread so far has had a recovered marriage. The marriages might well have failed if both spouses hadn't joined in and done the necessary work on the marriage.

Yes, people can walk away in a marriage, too, but it is much more complicated than "renting" a partner for whatever time period seems best. Married people are protected by law on several levels, in the event of divorce.

In the marriage ceremony, people make far too much fuss over the party and not enough serious review of the vows, and the vows are the most important part of the ceremony, after all.

Many do indeed forsake that vow, even if the marriage doesn't end in divorce. Only 20% of all marriages are actually happy and in love with each other for life, but for those 20%, marriage is the best relationship to consider. People who are in love can't imagine wanting to live apart from each other and to honor and commemorate that love, they usually want to marry each other.

No, everyone on this thread has a romantic, passionate, happy marriage. The only person on this thread in a failed marriage is you.


They don't apply to dating relationships, though, because those are tentative, uncommitted relationships. There is a huge difference between dating and being married.


Your marriage failed because you didn't know HOW to achieve a great and loving marriage. Neither do most marriage counselors, who have an 84% failure rate. Dr Harley's program is completely different from traditional marriage counseling.


You don't see it as a benefit because you have no earthly idea to achieve a happy marriage. IT is all a mystery to you. It is not a mystery to the people on this thread because all have acheived that.

Melody,

You're absolutely right on all points. I don't believe Dr. Harley's program would have worked for me as he doesn't do substance abuse and recommends getting that solved before his program. I never got to that point.

Yes, marriage counselors don't do much, didn't work for me.

And, if I knew how to achieve a happy marriage, I would have done that. However, I did have 15+ wonderful years.

And, yes, you all have wonderful marriages, but it didn't start that way. Nonetheless, I commend you for your success and envy that. I wish I could say the same.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not here to argue. I appreciate your feedback, and hope to make reasonable decisions from what I learned. I just have a hard time accepting marriage at this point in my life with the risks. If I knew I could have a relationship like you have, that will be successful forever, I'd not hesitate one bit with marriage. However, I would protect my kids and hers for any inheritance.

LongWay,

Thanks for the response, and as mentioned above, I commend you for your recovered marriage. I don't believe "renting" a partner, which I see as dating, is a long term commitment.

With 20% of marriages happy, that's even more reason to avoid.

The BIG issue with marriage is not when things go right, it's when things fail. And the guy almost always gets raked over the coals, brutally. Most states protect the women, not the man. I'm just not going to take that risk a second time. I've had way to many friends go thru that. Could I change my mind... sure, it's a part of learning more, and that's why I'm here.

Not sure I would say married people are protected by law. Where was my protection from an unfaithful ex wife demanding marital assets and primary custody of our child?

I am not against marriage. But I do understand those who are skeptical. There are few legal protections for the faithful spouse against pain and damage that can be wrought by a wayward who wants out of her marriage.

We can show you how to get that back.



Actually, most of ours did start that way. And they are that way TODAY. You can have that.


The reason you don't accept marriage is because you don't understand how a great marriage is created. If you understand it, you can do it too.


Right, the substance abuse has to be addressed first. The first step is to request that the addict spouse STOP the addiction. If he/she won't do that, there is not much that can be done.

Actually, it's more reason to do what the 20% are doing!

I think you do want the kind of marriage that the Marriage Builders programme offers. That's a no-brainer, because you are here. I don't think you came here, to a forum for those committed to the institution of marriage, to get us to agree that marriage is a bad idea.

I think you are unhappy with the morality of what you are doing in having an affair, and you are worried about what you'll be getting into if you abandon your marriage for your affair partner. You want a loving marriage but you don't know how to achieve that, and you're still trying to talk yourself into believing that living together with your affair partner is a better deal than marriage.

If you were convinced about the future with your affair partner you would be with her now. You know that the foundation of your relationship is flawed and that this bodes very ill for its future.

Melody,

That's exactly where I've been for 20 years. I just gave up over the last 5 years. She does not want to quit, period. So, I'm starting over..... I have a few years left.

Have you seen this?
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

Sugar,

You speak with wisdom. Had I done it right, I would have divorced several years ago. But that didn't happen. I do want the kind of marriage that MB offers, I just don't want the legal entanglement, and still strongly believe it's not necessary. I have three very good friends that are VERY happy and committed to their partner without the ties of marriage. They have still made a commitment, however.

I'm not getting a divorce because of my OW. I'm doing it because it's the right thing to do, however, she was a catalyst to get the job done sooner. Will she last? Don't know, but I will make every effort to try. And it doesn't take a judge with a stamp to tell me things are over with my marriage (except legally). The passion and love was gone long ago.

No, I'm not trying to convince you that marriage is bad for you. Only that it's not the only choice, and wanted feed back and thoughts, which I got... strongly (BTW).

I'm not with my OW because it's just too soon, as we need time to let it grow. She has become a special friend, the kind I feel I could make permanent at some time.

I'm here looking for answers and ideas, which I've gotten. I didn't realize how strongly marriage was felt about here, which is ok. I'm still going away with a lot of good ideas, and perhaps I could contribute someday.

You make your point forgetting the point as melodylane raised is that a lot more full time dating relationships ending then there are marriages.

Shacking up as I like to refer as full time dating is just what it's name implies. An agreement is reached where people agree to date 24/7/365.

A commitment to date is not a commitment to be married for life.

Well, no one WANTS to stop. That is unrealistic. What have you done to get her to stop? That does not take 20 years. It took my husband one day.