That is not a commitment, though. Just ask yourself why they wouldn't get married? It is BECAUSE they do not want the commitment. If they were really committed, they would make the commitment.

That's an oxymoron, Homelove. A marriage without a legal commitment is not a marriage, and it is not an MB marriage. It is the legal commitment that makes it a marriage!

What you said is like saying "I like everything about scrambled eggs, apart from the eggs"!

You might have something to contribute if you saved your marriage. If you just ran off and pursued some sleazy affair, you have nothing to share, because no one wants to be an adulterer. Who strives for that? Maybe on cheaters forums, but not on forums like this.

I just find this so sad.

You have not valued yourself to remove yourself from a marriage to an addict. MLs husband said 'quit or we're done' - and he meant it, because he valued himself and the marriage.

You've let your marriage degrade through inactivity. You stayed because your standards are low.

You're only willing to leave now to go to a worse situation!

You had to wait for the 'catalyst' of a woman you don't trust enough to tie yourself to legally and a woman who is fine with dating a married man. Fine to watch you dishonour the words and vows you once meant. Fine to go without them herself.

If you really did not need a judge to end the marriage, you wouldn't protest so much.

The truth is; you're looking for someone whose standards are lower than yours have been throughout the entire marriage. An OW is perfect for that.

Just very, very sad.

Sounds like wayward logic to me. I wouldn't expect to see respect for marriage from someone while displaying contempt for it at the same time. No matter how you try to look at it, it is a dead end. Affairs don't transform into lasting relationships, marriage or not.

Do you really not see how contradictory this really is? A legal entanglement would only be a problem if you needed to LEAVE. And if the door is wide open with one foot out, then you are not committed.

That is the attitude that typifies shack up situations. They are only around as long as things are good until something better comes along. Therefore, it is not a commitment. And sure, some marriages are like that, but ALL shack up arrangements are like that.

Well, no one WANTS to stop. That is unrealistic. What have you done to get her to stop? That does not take 20 years. It took my husband one day. [/quote]

Medody,

I've tried lots, including professional care, counseling, clinics, etc. Sure she has stopped for a day, even several days only to start again later. What should I have done? What did you do to be so successful?

Melody,

No I don't see contradiction. And, correct, the legal entanglement becomes a problem if you needed to leave, and that's the issue. Like I mention, seems like the majority of folks on this thread have gone through the "legal entanglement", by reading their signature line, unless I'm missing something. Yourself included, although please don't take that as a slap in the face. You have obviously got through it and on to a better life, which is great.

And all "shack ups" are not like that, I know of three and just remembered another. They don't have a foot out the door and have made a commitment to make it work to each other, and it has. I'd prefer not to call that shacking up, which has a negative tone.

Eureka,
Perhaps I should have said "I want the kind of relationship that MB offers", not marriage. I realize now that MB probably doesn't separate the two, but still has some good concepts for a loving relationship.

I see now that the vast majority of people here support marriage strongly. I felt I'd have some opposition but only ElightenedEx shed some light on the pitfalls of marriage, but a very valid point.

One can respect the ideal of marriage, while questioning the wisdom of how it's done by most folks.

Sure, it can be done differently. The trick is finding someone who is willing to go against the flow and be one of the 20%, instead of doing what the other 80% are doing.

I can see where someone may not like those odds.

The problem isn't with marriage. The problem is with what we as a society have twisted it into.

Yes Dr Harley does separate the two.

He has written a great article on choosing living together instead of marriage. He says that while it seems like a good idea, the most abusive relationships are the unmarried ones.

His summary as to why is that: "if you have chosen not to marry this person, there is probably a reason why"

In your case there are excellent reasons not to marry: 90 per cent of affairs end in disaster, including those who marry.

So your choice not to marry is not a problem with the long lasting set up of the 'entanglement'.

It is because you do not believe your relationship has what it takes to be long lasting.

And you would be dead right.

Have you read "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders"? If you haven't, you really need to. It answers your question.

So, can you be a buyer and not be married? Perhaps there can be some odd circumstance interfering with establishing a legal marriage, but any buyer will *want* to be married.

Speaking directly to your situation, you are deep in an affair fog. How can I conclude that about you? Because, inspite of your veneer of rationality, you are in in total denial as to what you are doing. It doesn't matter what your spouse has done; what you are doing is the single worst thing one human being can do to another. Nothing justifies it. You don't care because you are hooked on your personal drug of choice - it's called an affair. Can you not see this?

from Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders:

Freeloader is unwilling to put much effort into the care of his or her partner in a romantic relationship. He or she does only what comes naturally and expects only what comes naturally. It's like a person who tries to live in a house without paying rent or doing anything to improve it unless the person is in the mood to do so.

Renter is willing to provide limited care as long as it's in his or her best interest. The romantic relationship is considered tentative, so the care is viewed as short-term. It's like a person who rents a house and is willing to stay as long as the conditions seem fair, or until he or she finds something better. The person is willing to pay reasonable rent and keep the house clean but is not willing to make repairs or improvements. It's the landlord's job to keep the place attractive enough for the renter to stay and continue paying rent.

Buyer is willing to demonstrate an extraordinary sense of care by making permanent changes in his or her own behavior and lifestyle to make the romantic relationship mutually fulfilling. Solutions to problems are long-term solutions and must work well for both partners because the romantic relationship is viewed as exclusive and permanent. It's like a person who buys a house for life with a willingness to make repairs that accommodate changing needs, painting the walls, installing new carper, replacing the roof, and even doing some remodeling so that it can be comfortable and useful.

Renters believe Our relationship is temporary. You may be right for me today and wrong for me tomorrow.

Buyers believe We are together for life.

Renters believe Our relationship should be fair. What I get should balance what I give.

Buyers believe We both contribute whatever it takes to make our relationship successful.

Renters believe As needs change, the relationship may end if needs are difficult to meet.

Buyers believe As needs change, we will make adjustments to meet new needs.

Renters believe Criticism may prompt me to change if it's worthwhile for me to do so.

Buyer believe Criticism indicates a need for change.

Rentersbelieve Sacrifice is reasonable as long as it's fair.

Buyers believe Sacrifice is dangerous and to be avoided.

Renters believe Short-term fixes are fine.

Buyers believe long-term solutions are necessary.

Indie,

Good points, and it's not that I won't marry or have a long lasting relationship with the OW, it's too early to tell. She is a strong emotional support and we have a way before a permanent relationship, but I have no issue heading that way. I've been of the thought for years, that I would never marry anyone again. This is not a new thought for me.

Yes, I've read it, and find it interesting. Can a Buyer exist without marriage? Absolutely, and I've seen it done. Two of my "buyer" friends are pushing 70 and have enjoyed many loving years with their mate. I'm related to another. And no, all "buyers" do not want to be married. While I certainly have friends with great marriages, there are a lot that are not doing well.

Fog or not, it is my choice, and made it with both eyes open, considering the failed condition of my marriage. My OW is fully aware of my situation and we have set some ground rules to follow until my divorce.

I'm not looking for support from people that are die hard set on marriage as a solution, but do appreciate the comments as I can gain insight to the complications and challenges that I have entered into. I didn't realize the odds are highly stacked against me.... makes it challenging, for sure.

Are you having an affair with her? I am trying to imagine what she would be getting out of such a relationship. A married man who engages in adultery and pledges never to marry? I don't know many women who would sign on for that deal.

Do you know that the presenting problem of most of the "affairages" that have shown up over the years is cheating?

If you don't buy the car, you are not a buyer. If you don't commit, you are not committed. We classify a "buyer" as someone who is in a committed, romantic marriage. Just being together is not a commitment any more than dating is a commitment. People who shack up are renters by definition.


But we are not "die hard" set on marriage. We just know that adultery is a failed proposition. Adulterers sacrifice their integrity and decency.

By the definition of "affair", yes.

Precisely. Let's not confuse happy renters with buyers.

The name of the site is "Marriage Builders". What else did you expect? Of course we advocate for marriage. Besides, I do not see you as seeking support so much as rather seeking validation.