It seems like its time for plan B.

I was here a while ago as Runner nyc but cant seem to find that login.

We've gone through a huge transition, new job and relocation in a nice warm southern state. All seems to be fine on the outside, but no dates, no romance, no love. Roommates. It seems like time for plan b to save what little relationship we have left. Moving out of the house we moved into a month ago.

She gets angry if i suggest we dont have a good marriage, but thinks we hate each other. I think I treat her well, she says Im mean and angry. I was working from home a couple days, and she turned down lunch dayes. Then I went to work and forgot to wish her a "happy birthday". Texted and called from work. She's furious.

Dire Straits. ... help!

Hello Runner,

Here is your original thread.

Runner NYC

I have to assume you were never able to maintain a healthy 15 hours or more of UA time. Is that correct?

Did you two continue to study Dr Harley�s program? Did you read more than just HNHN? Did you ever get a coach to help you through the program?

I'm not sure I understand how you can say she gets mad if you suggest the marriage isn't great but then says you hate each other. How is it that that hasn't been discussed in an effort to understand her perspective? Or has it been and she doesn't have an answer on why she provides contradicting statements. Are those types of conversations too difficult, risky for you two to have?

You THINK you treat her well ... she says you're mean and angry. Who's perspective should she listen to yours or hers? I have to believe she sees some anger and you�re glossing over it.

I've read HNHN and HNHN for parents. She read parts of them. We met with Jennifer once in January, who recommended the coaching program. I agreed, DW did not, felt it was a waste of money to have someone tell us what we already know. We probably spend 3-4 hours a week together max, including jogging, or watching Netflix shows. (Not much IC). We're in a great new home, and i want to celebrate with her, but no go.

I am trying to negotiate this with her more than ever. We need a 3rd party, a mediator to get honest discussions.

I have been mostly successful with my love busters, but i get resentful at the lack of dates, intimacy i know we both need, and sex. But this week i failed miserably. We are getting settled down, kids in school, and unpacked, but no sitter. This morning I went to the school bus stop and asked the three moms if they could recommend a sitter. We got two names, including a 4.0 student. DW was furious I would 'humiliate her' by suggesting to catty neighbors that someone else 'should do her job of helping kids with homework." Wow.

She has no answer as to why she thinks we have a good marriage. I feel li

We're taking a vacation over the weekend with the kids, but we'll try to spend time together.

My bads: she called me at work (my new job) with an angry outburst, I told her I couldnt talk to her about this stuff at work, i have no privacy. She got angrier. I repeated. She kept going so i hung up on her. ( - 100 points) I've never done that before. And with all the moving in and house projects, I didnt plan her birthday until the last minute. ( - 200 points)

Today, she asked what I wanted to do. I said we should have daily time together, short walks or sitting outside etc. She agreed. I made a couple dates "without consulting her" and she was mad at that. (concert tix, and a financial advisor) I got tired of asking permission and getting rejected all the time. She said we needed to talk, and I added that we need dates to have fun too, not just stressful conversations over and over. She agreed. I'll work on arranging those with her, now that we have a sitter.

I feel like we must have a coach, to break this cycle, discussions, accountability, and negotiation. Clearly, what we're doing isnt working, and repeating the same mistakes.

Since you need a coach why not call Dr. Jennifer Chalmers back? Did your DW like her?

How many sessions did you do with her?

The answers to your problems are obvious. The difficulty is getting your W on board with a plan to fix them.


What is it exactly you two already know? This isn't a rhetorical question. Your W made this comment .. I'd ask " What do we know?".

Finding a way to get your W to agree you DO NOT already know what to do is paramount. If you knew what to do you�d most likely be doing it. Yet here you are � still not doing it.

For example this �.

The shows don�t count � so what maybe 1 to 2 hours a week? That won�t cut it. She obviously doesn�t know what it takes to build romantic feelings.

You need a coach there�s no arguing that. You probably also need someone to educate your W (can�t be you) on what you two really need to be doing. You both need to admit that right now you don�t know how to meet each other�s most important EN�s and avoid LBs at all costs


I�d suggest you admit you aren�t going to get your W to follow all the principles of this site on your own. You can�t just do a few of them. You need to follow them all or you�re bound to fail.

Next time say �Today I�d like to start a plan with the help of a 3rd party that helps us fall in love with each other. Because neither of us knows exactly how to do that.�


You spoke with Jennifer once. Wasn�t your discussion with her about how you are unable to implement the plan because there is a lack of commitment and a disbelief that MB will be the way to recover your M?

What exactly was said to Dr J? The fact she recommended the coaching program tells me she wasn�t aware someone wasn�t onboard.

I say call her again today, alone if you have to, and make it abundantly clear who is and who isn�t onboard with this program. Runner if both parties are interested in improving the marriage and both parties actively work this program (WHOLE HEARTEDLY) your M will improve. Please let Dr J help you get both parties interested.

VERY interesting day. And thank you all for the quick advice, very much appreciated and put to good use. Woke up early this morning to get daughters to school. After that DW was very somber, and very apologetic. She handed me a folded up, curled up and worry-worn index card d#3 had written in 9 yr old pencil:

"I am a great mommy. I am a beautiful woman. I have 3 beautiful daughters. I have a great husband. I have the BEST family anyone ever had."

She explained d3 gave it to her and insisted DW read it aloud to d3. We had a very long talk, she explained, I explained, agreed on the need for dates and conversation time and maybe some counciling. Tonight, walking together on the beach. I feel so much better. And so does she.

She apologized to me and the kids for her AO and disrespect. We had a "do-over" birthday, and re-opened all the cards and she read all of them aloud to us. And she read the index card too. That is one special 9 yr old who stayed awake listening to us argue.

Thank you guys too. will update on tues, and will try to get agreement on MB coaching.

Welcome back, NYC_Runner. I'm glad you guys are getting coaching - stay with us this time, okay? Start transforming your marriage and slowly tackling the problems one by one until they are gone and your marriage is great.

Listen to the radio show daily. Nothing has been more important for our marriage than that show.

The most important thing you guys probably need to learn to do is to STOP FIGHTING. Prisca didn't even really desire intimacy with me until the fighting was long gone.

Hey Runner, any update?

Sorry to be so late, but I've only just seen this:

Your wife had every right to be annoyed that you spoke to other people about the care of your kids without (it sounds) even consulting her first and getting her agreement on the course of action, and on the specific people to be asked.

It is a basic principle of MB that you do not take actions without your spouse's enthusiastic agreement; the Policy of Joint Agreement, which is at the centre of the whole programme. This isn't meant to cover whether you put your left sock or right sock on first in the mornings, but it is most certainly meant to cover actions that affect you both, like babysitters and childcare. Even though you did this for a good reason, i.e. trying to solve the problem of dates, you did it in entirely the wrong way. If, after the thought first came to you of asking those neighbours, you had held that thought and come home and discussed it, you would have found out your wife's objections to that pathway and you could have negotiated another one.

Prior discussion, negotiation and finding an enthusiastic solution will solve all the problems in your marriage. What's not to understand? You actually don't need Jennifer Harley or a coach to handle the negotiations for you; you just need to (both) accept that principle, and practice it. Saying that you got tired of asking permission is a huge problem. You should not see it as "asking permission" and putting you in a childlike position, but as negotiating problems and coming to mutually agreeable solutions. How on earth can that annoy or upset you? Surely negotiation is always a good thing in marriage, so that you win and she wins? Surely you don't want to be the dictator in your marriage? Don't you want your wife to be happy?

The same goes for the other dates. You know now, if you didn't before, that she does not always like the surprises - which is another way of describing the independent decisions, i.e. lovebusters - that you plan without her prior approval, so stop doing that. If you find out that something does not work or causes displeasure on your marriage, stop doing it. That's a no-brainer!

It is SOOO premature to be talking about Plan B and "dire straits".

The solution to the dates problem is to do as Dr Harley tells you and plan them with your wife, for the week, in advance. Dr H recommends sitting together on Sunday afternoons and planning the week. This would have at least two advantages in your situation. The first would be that, by definition, you would be following POJA and negotiating decisions that you are both enthusiastic about. The second would be that your dates would actually take place.

Your wife seems a bit like me in that she possibly has her days planned out in her head. For example, my H and I had dates planned this week for Sunday (past), Friday night and Saturday daytime. Earlier this week, when I heard that mid-week would be hot in London, I planned to strip the bed of my son, who goes back to school today and so is not lying in bed until midday, and wash the duvet, pillows, mattress protector etc, which are hard to dry if the weather is not hot. This might be the last very hot week we have, so that was the reason for my plan.

If my H had asked me today to go for lunch, what might seem like (and really should be, I agree) a treat that I should snap up, would not have been to me. I have to be back in my office tomorrow and Friday, and the weekends are too busy at home to be stripping beds, so today is the day. Friday night and Saturday are already planned for our dates. I do not like having my plans for the home disrupted; it makes me irritable not to accomplish something that I planned, that has a short window of opportunity. If you've heard anything about British rain, you'll know what I mean.

If your wife is like me, that is the kind of reason why she does not take you up on spontaneous dates. She has her days planned, and does not like spontaneity. Neither of you is right or wrong about the issue of whether it would be nice to go to lunch today; that just isn't something that she is enthusiastic about or wants to do at all.

So schedule the dates, through negotiation, and stick to the schedule. If you rigorously approach your dates in this way and your wife refuses to have dates of any kind, then perhaps you have a problem that needs a coach's help. However, most people do not need a coach; Dr H says this himself. It is perfectly possible to follow the programme, with POJA at its core, by yourselves. If your wife doesn't want to spend the money on a coach, then don't see this as a problem; use the free resources, or the much-cheaper-than-coaching Home Study course, to work through the objectives by yourselves.

Plan B is definitely not the solution Dr. Harley recommends for this problem.