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I should have qualified that the therapist said this in an email to me. She is on my side regarding getting the marriage back together and making things work for the kids. It was not in front of WW.
However, your point is well-taken, and again, I agree with those points and this approach. Thanks again so much
I would respond to the counselor with what LearnedTooLate said:
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They are supposed to deal with the circumstances at hand, not chastise one spouse in front of the other and seemingly take sides.
Relay that you are using Surviving An Affair as the basis for the advice on how best to extinguish the obvious elephant in the room, which is the primary 1st goal before you can redirect attentions to recreating romantic feelings for each other, along with safeguarding your marriage and family from outside betrayers to your marriage.
The truth is the best defense. Ask if it's wrong to tell the truth or wrong to betray your family. The affair is what is damaging, not the truth being concealed.
If a woman is getting her emotional needs met by an interloper to your marriage, you will be unable to make any LB Deposits to her, because her bank is closed off to any of the deposits you are trying to make.
BH: 46 FWW: 44 3 DD: 20,17,11 Married 24 years PA/EA: 5/08 DDay: 6/08 NC: 8/08 Previous EA 1998 confessed 8/08 In Recovery
MelodyLane - I have taken your advice (because I agree with it), and other people want to know "Who is giving you this advice that is contrary to the professionals who you are paying?" They might think that you are just an anonymous post-er. I know that there are rules to this forum and a moderator. If I were to further defend my actions, I want to point them to Harley/Chalmers, but they might say "who is this melody lane?? What are his/her credentials?"
I have *NO* credentials other than to sell soft drinks. I only know how to SCREW UP marriages. All of the advice we gave you is from Dr Bill Harley. The credentials of Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi2000_meet.html
Now, can you please post your therapist's credentials so we can check them? How many years experience? What university? What degree? What books has she authored and how many marriages has she saved. It should be fair to ask her credentials since I provided Dr Harley's.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
I should have qualified that the therapist said this in an email to me. She is on my side regarding getting the marriage back together and making things work for the kids. It was not in front of WW.
However, your point is well-taken, and again, I agree with those points and this approach. Thanks again so much
Most therapists have absolutely no idea how to save a marriage after an affair, Dr Harley DOES. Here is what he says about exposure in his book Surviving an Affair:
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley, clinical psychologist and founder of Marriage Builders
"The issue of exposure comes up when a betrayed spouse has first learned about the affair. Should it be exposed to others, or kept secret? I generally recommend exposure. When should it be exposed? I usually recommend that it be exposed immediately. To whom should it be exposed? I recommend that family, friends, children, clergy, and especially, the lover's spouse be informed. Exposure in the workplace depends on several factors."
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
Ha - that's great MelodyLane! The counselor has Dr. Harley's book on her shelf. She's got 35 yrs experience, but it doesn't matter. I hear ya. And no, I don't think she's saved anywhere near as many marriages! Cheers!
Ha - that's great MelodyLane! The counselor has Dr. Harley's book on her shelf. She's got 35 yrs experience, but it doesn't matter. I hear ya. And no, I don't think she's saved anywhere near as many marriages! Cheers!
Dr Harley has 40 so he has her beat! He also has 17 books under his belt is the leading expert on infidelity.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
Ha - that's great MelodyLane! The counselor has Dr. Harley's book on her shelf. She's got 35 yrs experience, but it doesn't matter. I hear ya. And no, I don't think she's saved anywhere near as many marriages! Cheers!
Dr Harley has 40 so he has her beat! He also has 17 books under his belt is the leading expert on infidelity.
19 books! Not to mention he has been happily married himself for 50 years.
We went to marriage counseling for over a year before finding Dr. Harley and this forum. And I'll add I liked our counselor very much and she had over 35 years experience. She was even experienced in infidelity and addiction. What she lacked was a PLAN to restore the marriage.
19 books! Not to mention he has been happily married himself for 50 years.
whoops! you are right!
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
But she's pissed that I broke my promise and told kids anyway. Therapist said, "this was too soon and perhaps very harmful to the kids".
Willard Harley, PhD, clinical psychologist, on telling the children:
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
The same can be said about telling children about an affair. My experience with the positive outcomes of hundreds of families where an affair has been exposed to children has led me to encourage a betrayed spouse not to fear such exposure. In fact, to mislead children, giving other false explanations as to why their parents are not getting along, causes children to be very confused. When they finally discover the truth, it sets an example to children that dishonesty is sometimes acceptable, making them the judge of when that might occur.
An affair is an attack on children as well as the betrayed spouse. And it's true that children are deeply affected by this form of irresponsible behavior. But it's the act of infidelity that causes children to suffer, not the exposure of it. Facts point us toward solutions. Illusion leads us astray. That's true for children as well as adults.
Q: So, you do suggest telling our 10 year old son? Is this more than he can handle? He never saw any real unhappiness as my husband and I had a very low conflict marriage. I have been protecting our son from this truth. He still has hope that his dad is going to come home. ___________________________________ A: As for your son, the truth will come out eventually, even if you get back together again. And your son won't be emotionally crippled if he hears the truth. It's lies and deception that cripple children. He should know that your husband is choosing his lover over his son's mother. It's a fact. He's willing to ruin a family unit all for what.
When I first started recommending openness about an affair, I wasn't sure what would happen. But I did it because I knew it was the right thing to do. Now I know that for most couples it marks the beginning of recovery.
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The reason that children should know about an affair is that exposing it to the light of day (letting everyone know), helps give the unfaithful spouse a dose of reality. An affair thrives on illusion, and whatever a betrayed spouse can do to eliminate the illusion is justifiable. Mold doesn't grow well in sunlight.
2. How honest should I be about the A? (they are 7 and under)
Tell your children as much as you can about their father's affair, and how it affects you. There are some counselors and lawyers that strongly disagree with me on this issue, but I have maintained that position for over 35 years without any evidence that children are hurt by it. They're hurt by the affair, not by accurate information regarding the affair. Just make sure that you don't combine accurate information with disrespectful judgments. For example, you can say that the OW has taken their father away from you, but you should not say that she is home-wrecker (or worse).
My basic approach to life is that radical honesty is valuable on many different dimensions. It keeps us out of trouble, it helps others understand us, and it helps others avoid the same mistakes we have made. Letting your children know the details of your husband's affair would help them in all three areas.
The more your children know about your husband's affair, the more careful he will be to avoid them in the future.
The more your children know about his affair, the more they will understand what you are going through in your recovery (by the way, you are doing very well -- keep up the good work!).
Being radically honest about your husband's affair with your children would also help them avoid affairs themselves. How it happened and how could it have been prevented is a great object lesson for children. I learned that I was vulnerable for an affair when I learned about my grandfather's affairs. The extraordinary precautions I've taken were directly related to what I learned about him.
It's the approach I've always taken, and while it's difficult, especially for the WS, there's much more upside to it than downside.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
If your therapist has bona fide evidence that telling children the truth, versus lies and affairs, is harmful to children, she can contact Dr Harley at mbradio@marriagebuilders.com and discuss it with him.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
AR, exposing to my children did NOT damage them at all. It had the opposite effect. It alleviated the anxiety and stress DS was dealing with because he knew SOMETHING was happening he just did not understand what.
I believe he was doing exactly what Dr Harley says children do if they are not told the truth, they blame the marital problems and tension in the home on themselves.
I can also testify to this from the other side - when I was young, my parents exposed affairs to me from two close family members, one when I was about 9 and the other when I was a pre-teen. In both cases, I knew something was very wrong before they told me. It did not damage me in the least. It taught me a lot about honesty and how damaging affairs are.
AR, You have gotten excellent advice on this thread, and you did well telling your children the truth. What your counselor doesn't understand is that exposure, according to Dr. Harley, is the best chance at ending an affair because it pops the fantasy bubble. You popped it big time by telling your children, and if you let the other shoe drop by telling the home school parents, you will have completed your exposure.
After awhile, things will go south in fantasy land. They almost always do. And that will be your chance to recover your marriage.
But it takes time, and in the meantime, you must soldier through plan A.
Expose to the parents, and them begin an earnest Plan A if you want to save your marriage.
I discovered my own mother's affair years ago. I guarantee I was not damaged in the slightest. On the contrary I was very helped to learn the truth.
Today I am grown and happy in life, well-adjusted, happily married, a father of wonderful children, fairly successful in life by nearly any measure.
It did not damage me to find out the truth about my life.
What might've damaged me would've been if I had not found out the truth and had continued to live for a few more years in an environment where my mother was doing something very destructive to me.
If you are serious about saving your marriage, you can't get it all on this forum. You've got to listen to the Marriage Builders Radio show, every day. Install the app!
Married to my radiant trophy wife, Prisca, 19 years. Father of 8. Attended Marriage Builders weekend in May 2010
Yes you need to expose to the homeschool parents. The fact is your counselor hasnt counseled 50,000 couples and become a regognized national expert on marriage: Dr Harley is.
Regarding exposure to kids, alcoholic families often lie to children to make excuses for the alcoholics behavior. I witnessed it and participated in lying to my kids for years to cover up an alcoholics behaviors. My ex wife has complained that i have "grown up" conversations with the children by exposing alcoholic behaviors and her affair.
The TRUTH is that my children are better prepared for adulthood when they are not lied to and so will your children be.
Regarding exposure to kids, alcoholic families often lie to children to make excuses for the alcoholics behavior. I witnessed it and participated in lying to my kids for years to cover up an alcoholics behaviors. My ex wife has complained that i have "grown up" conversations with the children by exposing alcoholic behaviors and her affair.
The TRUTH is that my children are better prepared for adulthood when they are not lied to and so will your children be.
This is so true. Children that are raised in alcoholic homes are so confused and disconnected from reality due to those lies. They see things that look WRONG and are told they are RIGHT. That is one way to screw up a kid and keep him confused well into adulthood. I was raised in such an atmosphere by a wayward and an alcoholic. Parents who lie to little children steal reality from them.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
So WW is sleeping upstairs and I'm being nice and she's being nice...but I still can't get over seeing so many reminders (like family photos around the house that are less than 4 years old - she was in the affair when these photos were taken) of the affair that SHE IS STILL ENGAGED IN!!
But I cannot leave my house!
I can't bear to look at her and can't seem to get it out of my mind. Because she walks around like she has for the last 4 years like she's happy and content, except she doesn't embrace or kiss me to keep a secret anymore.
I still feel like she's getting away with it. And my kids haven't talked to me about the issue since I told them the truth. And I have no idea what WW has talked to them about. Should I be asking the kids, "What did you and mommy talk about? What questions did you ask mommy about her affair?" Those seem a little out of line and insecure, and could put some uncertainty/distrust in their minds, and I want them to trust me.
First off, I would expose to the other homeschooling parents as we suggested. Affairs thrive on secrecy so keeping it secret in that small part of her world allows her to continue to pretend that all is well there. You can leave them no rocks to hide under. Everyone in her life should know what she has done.
You cannot AFFORD to skip any exposure opportunities because this affair has gone on for a very long time and is very entrenched. In order to kill it you have to drag it out into the light of day. You cannot afford to LEAVE ONE STONE UNTURNED.
Encourage your kids to express their disappointment in their mother. They should feel free to ask her to end her affair.
DEMAND that your wife end her affair andc end all contact as long as she is in your home. Tell her it is profoundly disrespectful to you and your children to be carryin on an affair while living there. Ask her to move out if she is going to conduct her affair becuase it is too painful to you and the kids. <-----be a broken record on this aspect.
It would actually be better if she did move out and in with the OM becuase reality will destroy their affair pretty fast. Their relationship is built on deceit, thoughtlessness and selfishness and as soon as they are together in the open all of those traits will kill it.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
Be nice to her but raise holy unmitigated HELL on the affair. Do you understand?
Here is the message you need to convey to this POS:
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt
Be nice to her but raise holy unmitigated HELL on the affair. Do you understand?
That is exactly right.
The day that I confirmed that my FWW was having an affair, I told her matter-of-factly: "Either you leave him or you leave the house." No disrespectful judgments, no angry outbursts, no tears, and no pleading.
She said, "I'm not leaving him." And she left. She now calls it the worst year of her life.
Be firm and strong. But also let her know you love her and want her to return to a marriage that can be happy.
She is in the fog and it is thick. Only through your full exposure and letting her feel the consequences of her actions will it lift. Her affair is a joke. You know it. Your friends and family know it. And one day the fog will lift and she will know it too. If you do a proper plan a, you will be her landing place.
Unfortunately, she is not leaving the house. She is hell-bent on divorce. She thinks all my exposure actions to stop the affair were made out of anger and that "you're just trying to destroy my reputation" (which is quite laughable).
She thinks she can just live upstairs and be the happy mommy and sleep with the POS across town, and she is apparently not concerned that she is giving our children an example of how to be a cheating adultress and how to be cruelly disrespectful to the man that has provided so much in 11 years.
I am done exposing. The fact is that my wife is too stubborn and just won't 'move' on this. I will do my best at a proper plan a, but really only to give the children a good example of turning the other cheek. They will see and learn.
There is nothing else that I can do. And come on you guys: FOUR YEARS is a LONG TIME. How many 4-yr affairs have been recovered from?
