I guess I want to hear this question towards anyone that has felt the way my wife has and has successfully recovered their marriage.

My wife prior to this fight planned a date night for us and it was really nice and genuine. She told she loved me very much. I quit smoking that week and yelled at my son for misbehaving. It was harsh and I apologized right after and everything was fine with my wife and kids. A few days later she told me about this divorce and said she was AFFRAID that I was going to yell at my son the way I yelled at her when we fought. It was my first time yelling at my son wih that tone, however he was in big trouble for what he did and my wife yelled at him louder the night before.

So now she says she hates me, has no feelings for me and can not forgive for things that happened throughout our 8 years of marriage. She is telling me I need to get it through my head that it is over. All the nice things I have been doing to her and helping out around the house she does not believe. She thinks it's obsessive that I care for her how much I do. She says she wants peace and happiness and I told her I can provide that to her. However she says she can not trust me or confide in me cause I have used that against her in the past when I felt she was making a bad decision.

I guess my point is, have the women who have recovered felt the same way she has? I mean at some point when is enough enough? She says the nice things I'm doing is pushing her a way further. Did you feel the same way at one point?

Oh, yes, Owen, that sounds just like me and Prisca. She didn't see any way forward either as long as I continued to have angry outbursts at her or at the children. I had to take anger management and go through relaxation therapy with a biofeedback meter as Dr. Harley describes. I had to be incredibly diligent to learn to stay calm and not have an angry outburst no matter what (no matter how bad I feel, how tired I am, or how provoked I might be). And then after that it took awhile for Prisca's feelings to follow.

I have done everything discussed on here, I'm in therapy currently went 3 weeks and my therapist agreed I have done some pretty stupid things, but I don't have any issues, I'm not an angry person, I was emotionally hurt by the distant my wife gave me while pursuing her career and tending to our children. I worked a different shift and was trying to build up my business. We had a lot of stress their is no excuse for the things that I said but she keeps asking why why why. And I told her this and I also told her I was an idiot. I'm making the changes to improve and I don't inspect her to change her mind over night but why be so harsh with me. Why say I have the strength of an army and I will not change my mind ever. Tells me I'm the one who ruined this relationship. I told her I understand I had my faults and made huge mistakes I just want to change all this address our issues and love each other like we should.

So keep pushing forward Markos? She thinks I'm being obsessive, fake, and telling me I'm pushing her away further by pretending that I care now. I have not been overbearing unless we talk about the relationship and told her I'm not ready to move on I'm ready for change and ready to be happy the rest of my life with her.

There is no one else either, I have people I know looked into her at work at, and she recently hired some family. Had access to her phone nothing. She just hates me!

I think I'm making deposits but the way she says it it is like I'm making withdrawals. That is why my question was when is enough enough?

You asked for perspective from a wife in this situation.


No it wasn't. Every time the angry, mean Owen comes out, your wife is triggered back to the worst day of your marriage. In the face of an angry husband, the wife just doesn't dare to say anything at that time.


As a wife with an angry husband, I can tell you that a tipping point is when the wife's viewpoint of her husband changes from "he is such a nice man but he gets so angry sometimes!" ..... to..... "he is a mean man and no matter how nice he can be for x days/weeks/months, I can always count on the mean, nasty Owen to come out again eventually."

Your wife sounds like she has made this transition. You can plan A for weeks or even months, but whenever a mean mouth comes out, you just lost all that effort. Think of it almost like an affair - if you had cheated on your wife, every time you decide to romp with the other woman again, your wife despairs of anything having changed, but now she even trusts anything you say to her less. Your anger is the "other woman".


Owen, you SERIOUSLY need to think before you say things. Treat your wife as if she is the MOST important, valuable person in your life, not the person you can always treat like a dog because she's stuck with you. Would you say "I told you so" to your boss, your colleagues, your friends like this? I doubt it, or else you would quickly lose them all. Treat your wife with NO LESS respect and decorum than you would treat other important people in your life.

Bottom line is you have to do something to change your anger, and then get her to believe it is changed. Once you have her starting to believe you, NEVER, EVER become angry again. This means saying mean or sarcastic things even if not in an angry tone. Unfortunately you have used up all of your free passes - most marriages can take an occasional emotional situation. Yours can no longer survive another single instance of them.

Marriage Builders has solutions for rebuilding the love but ONLY AFTER you have fixed your anger outbursts, and after you have convinced her they are fixed - gone to never return.

My husband sees his anger outbursts as "productive conversations". He doesn't see a problem with them at all. After they are over, his recollection of the way he behaved is pure fiction.

Read the chapter in LoverBusters about angry outbursts, where the husband didn't even remember the conversations the way they happened. Perhaps this is the same with you.


When your husband is ranting at you with a mean mouth, you do start to question "Why is he saying these things if he actually loves me? This doesn't sound like someone who cares for me but like someone who hates me!"

Perhaps her emotional distance and career pursuit was to keep her health safe from your outbursts.

That was my coping strategy as well.

So did you get back with your husband? If so, what was the turning point for you? It seems from what you said you had the same feelings she is has.

Being a women who has gone through this, besides going to therapy can you suggest anything else I can do to show that I am being genuine?

Our anniversary is tomorrow as well

I had to ask him to separate on July 31 when yet another situation happened and I lost all hope.

He reacted in an ugly way which was hurting our children (telling them I wasn't right in the head or that I was putting him out of the house, completely out of the blue - all which he knew was not true). Meanwhile he was telling me on the other hand that he wants to be married to me for the rest of his life, etc etc.

So, I put the separation on hold until we get the help of a professional to launch the separation and dictate the terms of the separation, which will occur this week.

The terms will be: 1) successfully complete an anger management counseling course, 2) any SINGLE instance of destructive words or behavior towards the kids again is an immediate transition to plan D, 3) date with the UA time as prescribed by MB with coaching from Steve H and 4) getting back together when I fall back in love with him.

If it were not for this MB board which I lurk in every day, and MB techniques, I would have no hope for anything to ever change and would be in Plan D right now instead of asking for the separation.

In my case, the separation is the only way I can move forward. Even though my H knows very well our marriage is crumbling due to the things he says, he does not recognize them for what they are so he continues on withdrawing LB$$ throughout the week.

I'm hoping the distance of time between withdrawals (since we hopefully will only make deposits on our UA time and dates) will help my memory fade and help me look forward only, without remembering the past.

I posted my situation in detail in March 2013 and received unanimous advice from the regulars on this forum to separate until the anger could be worked out (similar to a therapeutic separation). I was so done with everything that I asked if it was even possible to revive anything, and the regulars here SWARMED all over that insisting it could be done. So, I asked the moderator to remove my thread so I could invite my husband this forum (it was more truthful than I felt would be productive for him to read at the time).

Then, I asked my husband to check the forum out, as well as bought HNHN and Lovebusters but he didn't visit the forum or read the books.

He says our marriage as overall pretty good (yea, for HIM) and does not believe we are in a crisis.

I tried to just keep powering on through it, but when the experienced wisdom of this forum is right, it's right. It eventually came to the head they said it would.

You are availing yourself of the help on this forum, which is a huge step forward.


As for suggestions in your case:

1) Although I'm in a similar mindset as your wife, on a practical side I can see it would be much better to experience an MB rescue than splitting our children's home. That is the only reason I am making this effort. Perhaps you can sell her on that. If she reads Marko's original thread she might believe a transition is possible. It wasn't until pages into it that a few hints of him being an angry person came out - he didn't see it as a problem at all.

2) Really, really filter EVERYTHING you say to her...would you say that to your boss? Would you say that to someone who was interviewing you for a job? Would you say that to your father or mother? Apply the same filter on your words to her and your children that you would to any external conversation. Use this filter without fail until you retrain your mouth.

3) Your job is to sell your family on YOU. Behave towards each member of your family as you would behave to an important customer. They are more important than your biggest customer. To your kids this means firm but RESPECTFUL and LOVING parenting - would you outburst to your customer? To your wife this means meeting her needs just like you meet the needs of your biggest customer. MB has the proven formula for that. Markos and Prisca are your model couple that might help her believe it.

Would she post here? The regulars here got me to hold off on the Plan D trigger. Maybe they could do so for her also, especially if she sees them helping you and the changes in you as your accept their help and try their suggestions.

Anniversary suggestion:

Once shortly before Valentines day, my husband had a terrible AO and I was so hurt and angry.

He came home from work on Valentine's day with a sapphire and diamond necklace - something durable but yet modest enough to be appropriate for every day wear; perhaps worth $300 - $400 in todays dollars.

I wore that necklace every day for the next 20 years as a remembrance that even when things were bad, he still cared to think of me.

For your anniversary, you could ask her to post her story to the forum and give her something she would want to wear every day. It could trigger memories of the steps you have taken to create new hope in your marriage.

A way to help yourself remember this is to realize that by filing for divorce, your wife has fired your old marriage and you are looking for an opportunity to interview for a new one.

I read this in another thread - I wish I could remember who to attribute it to: when she is doing something wrong which rightfully deserves a complaint, if your reaction is an AO then the only problem on the table now is that you AO'd. Whatever she was doing is now lost as the issue.

You see everything she has done wrong as well, she just sees the AO.

I can tell you that is how it works. Even if your wife realizes she has done something wrong, all she sees is that you don't love her enough to bring it up in a constructive way but rather you just destroy her over it with a self centered AO instead. She starts to see you as a hater instead of someone who loves her.

I have asked her several times about doing this program but her answer has always been a firm no. I will ask her to post on this forum however I think she will say no to that as well.

I understand I have been a rotten husband, and made really dumb choices and said some real horrible things. I never did stop loving her for one second. My actions were uncalled for an I know realize that. But since going to therapy I have also realized where it came from and how her self is not taking accountability for her actions. I don't have excuses but rather reasons on things she has done that hurt me and I reacted in AO.

I do have a gift in mind that I know she will love, I just don't want her thinking I'm trying to presueade her in buying her nice things in hopes that she will return.

She has filed and I had no choice but to respond and retain an attorney. I have told her several times about MB but to no avail. I will continue going to therapy and continue with this forum in hopes I can change who I am and hope even more for the return of my wife.

There are never reasons for an AO. This comment literally sounds like my husband. Several times I've almost wondered if you ARE my husband posting, unknown to me, LOL.

What could be a better reason to have an AO at my husband than he is running me down, personally insulting me and threatening to leave which would gravely disrupt our children's home? Yet, somehow I just have to be the adult in the room and not AO back.

Every time he says there are "reasons" for his AOs, or that I pushed a button (blah blah) I think to myself "what better reason for ME to have an AO than the way you are treating me right now, yet I don't."

You see, when I was a child I had a terrible temper. This lasted until I was in 4th grade and was chasing someone around the school yard with a tree branch so I could hit them. AS A 4TH GRADER, I could see the stupidity of anger and how clobbering someone with a tree branch would not be a productive solution. So, I put the tree branch down and stopped my angry ways.

Truthfully, when my husband is AO'ing at me, I sometimes wonder why I am married to someone with less maturity than my 4th grade self, and wishing I could have the benefit of some reciprocal maturity.

If you think there is a reason to AO, then you are less mature than a 4th grader.

{edited to clarify the story ending.]

[clarify: by "blah blah" I mean any other number of "reasons" he is giving]

Send her a link to your thread, tell her the forum is helping you and ask for her opinion on what you are being told.

AFTER she reads the thread, invite her to reply with her side. You can only be helped if this forum is getting a correct version; she may have some additional light to offer.

Owen,

I honestly believe you just haven�t done a decent enough job of being the proper H for your W in a long enough period of time to expect her to have a change of heart. In your eyes you seem to think you�ve done enough.

Your last fight was only a month ago � yet you agree to having a heated discussion just a few days ago. Sorry Owen heated discussion means you�ve just validated to her that life with you is nothing but a whole lot more of the same that she�s seen in the past. If you want to Plan A your W no more heated discussions. Learn how to have friendly, polite, productive conversations with her or agree you�re simply doomed to succeed at being the H she needs. Don�t get me started on the drinking conversation.

Dr Harley recommends men Plan A for up to 2 years. I�d say right now you�ve sabotaged your Plan A enough with the way you communicate with her so reset your clock. FYI you can still Plan A your W if you�re separated and even divorced.

You continue to point your finger at her and ask that she accept her responsibility in the deterioration of your M. I suspect you are saying that as a leveler to say she SHOULD participate in an attempt to recover your M because she owns a part. But I would say your anger trumps what she did that you say opened the door for you to behave so poorly. Until she knows you�re no longer an angry person she�s best not trying to reconcile with you.

If you ever begin reconciliation then you can discuss LoveBusters and what went wrong in the M (respectful complaints) and negotiate better behaviors.

As far as the when is enough enough question? I was a withdrawn H. I was on cruise control until the kids were grown and gone and then I was outta there. But once my W and I came to an agreement to work on the M the state of our M changed for me in a hurry. The key for you will be to get that LoveBank balance she has for you back in the black. You aren�t even close to it right now so keep working. Until that time expect more of what you�re getting from her today. If she enters into the state of conflict show her extremely healthy conflict solving skills. Never anger or disrespect. Read the principles on how to have successful negotiations and also read the 4 friends and enemies of good conversation.

Keep trying to get UA time.

Dr. Harley comments on the health issues of women who try for too long to hold their marriage together.

I started having health issues from the stress of dreading/avoiding/receiving the AOs. Sadly I wasted many years receding into passivity to try to keep the children's home together, and did not take the steps I needed to fix this situation until my body simply demanded that I do so. I was confronted with the decision of whether my children were better off in a separated home with a healthy mother or a home disrupted because their mother met an early grave - not to get dramatic or anything!

Mr. Alias is giving you a tough comment here, but he is right.

Owen,

Your getting knocked pretty hard here and I can't disagree with what the other poster's are saying. You do need to stop all abuse. And for now you do need to set aside your own complaints.

I do see a glimmer of hope for you to improve yourself. You have recognized that your past behavior was wrong.

You have a to do list. Show us the better Owen that you aspire to be.

You need to get out of your wife's head and just concentrate on your side of the street. Your focus is entirely too much on the other side of the road and not enough attention is being paid to your job at the wheel.

Your job is to protect the marriage from influences without, and give it nutrition within. You say you've been protective and have effectively ruled out an affair.

You don�t mention any other factors that would have an undue influence over your wife such as alcohol, drugs or mental illness. Therefore we must conclude she is a reasonable person, has control over her own mind and will (in time!) respond to a good offer.

So give her a good offer to respond to!

If she does have a withdrawn lovebank, then quite simply she won't like you trying to rebuild it. She will have become protective of it and will resent any attempt on your part to meddle with her hurt feelings. So you must be gentle and treat her like a baby deer.

Think of a starved lovebank as though it is a starved, sickly, wild creature. It will be in a bad mood, it won't trust you and any food you give it will make it sick at first.

But you must give it food in the form of lovebank deposits if you want it to become strong.

That's why we recommend small gestures to start. Give it just a little bit of food every day, offered in the most tempting way, and never try to force feed it. Above all, be patient!

Right now you're losing all patience because a half starved thing with no stomach won't sit down to feast with you - and that is not a reasonable expectation to have.

Being impatient, acting even slightly desperate or woe-is-me will create a generally unpleasant atmosphere and will only hinder your efforts.

Be more zen. Work patiently towards your goal with a smile and with confidence that your wife's fear and hopelessness is groundless.

How can she believe there is nothing to fear if you are fearful too! Don�t let your wife even smell your fear.

And there really is nothing to fear. If her lovebank is empty, you are able to fill it - and that's all that's needed.

Meeting needs + patience and creating a happy atmosphere + no lovebusters AT ALL + no ongoing affair = success.

Well yesterday was our anniversary, I was trying to think all day what to get her that I know she would love. After thinking about for a while I decided to get her a card and some of her favorite fall flowers. I did not want to buy something where she thought I was trying to bribe. Well she liked the flowers and the card but really didn't show much enthusiastic. She looked very upset and depressed. I tried talking to her and she opened up a little more to me. He told me that I needed to understand that your whole life she has had conflicts with men. Starting out with her real father who left her, a step dad that she always fought with and several significant relationships where she had been hurt. I comforted her and told her I'm so sorry for my actions, I'm sorry I was not able to be the proper husband for you at that time.

After talking a little bit I asked her if she wanted to go out for an hour or so just me an her. She said no, so I asked again about a half hour later. She said sure but I don't want to give you the wrong idea, that this divorce is still going. Well we dropped off fine kids at soccer and our two little ones we took out to eat. We talked and laughed throughout dinner. After picking up one from soccer, bathing the little ones and doing homework it was to late to go out so we decieded to watch our favorite show together. She opened up more and was very talkative at first.

Throughout the show I was massaging her legs and we laughed and she brought up the divorce on how she can't change her mind and that she feels sorry for me that I'm trying this hard when she still has not seen any change and that she will be leaving. I really did not even listen to that cause I did not want to hear it. After the show I told her I was going to bed and gave her a kiss. About 10 minutes later I came out of the bedroom to get some water and she was getting up have her another hug asked her if she wanted to sleep in our bed and she said no and that she was sorry.

I went and got my water turned the lights off and walked back to bed and there she was in our bed. Very surprised i said thank you, she gave me some excuse that the dog was laying in her spot on our daughters bed. We talked some more, more about the divorce and she asked why I said hurtful things. I told her that she is very good at expressing her feelings and I am not, I would get frustrated and AO, I told her my actions are inexcusable. She then asked me what am I going to do when she leaves, I said cry! She then started to cry.

Getting a lot of mixed emotions right now from her, she still says I haven't change and I understand it is going to take time. We both agreed how a marriage should be and I told her I wanted it now to and I know how we can achieve it. She said why didn't you do that before my only answer was I was and idiot.

This morning I kissed her goodbye and told her I loved her dearly!! Only response was you better hurry your going to be late for work!

She was also saying during that time we were talking that she doesn't believe we our met for each other because we have different point of views on everything and that she thinks we are not soul mates. That really hurt to hear that because I know in the past when the love bank was full we were in love. She also said she does not hate me just does not have any love for me anymore and can not love me like a women should love her husband. Very harsh things to hear from a person you are in love with. However our point of view on how marriage should be was exactly how I wanted it to be. We both just did not work hard enough to achieve.

She is in deep withdraw mode, I miss her so much today and did not want to go to work, I hustled wanted to be next to her.

Owen, if you buy into this program you know there is no such thing as soul mates. Certainly there are people that are more in line with what you need from a spouse but fate doesn't play a part.

Dr Harley has a lot of articles on how a couple can become compatible. It is also said that people with different points of view make decent partners.

You are doing a good job. She's pushing you away or trying to keep you at arm's length because she's afraid of being hurt again. Don't hurt her ever again. She'll come around. Ignore the whole divorce talk like you've been doing.

She isn't saying harsh things. She's simply being honest with you. Yes I know the words hurt. It's good that she can say these things to you. If she were to simply ignore you you'd have a tough time moving forward. If you have any chance of recovering these open and honest conversations will be essential to the recovery. So keep engaging her. Let her continue to apologize for not being able to reciprocate. You contine to tell her your sorry and state your mantra. "I will never have another angry outburst ever again. I will never bicker or fight ever again. It cost me your love and I wish I knew better years ago. I will never go back to that again."