MMM, I felt the same way about HNHN. I don't remember looking at it quite as justification, but definitely a tough read in many areas. It made me ill to my stomach and heart wondering just why my H couldn't have just talked about it back then rather than bomb the whole M.

We read it first about 3 months ago MMM, so about the same time after D-Day as you are now. As we've been going back to it now, it isn't quite as hurtful AND we are talking more and more. Keep the faith!

Trust me - there is. If they continue to live like that they are going to wind up with enormous problems in their lives.

Meanwhile, the best revenge is a life well lived.

MMM, are you and your wife dating? Following the Policy of Undivided Attention?

Any chance you guys are listening to the radio show?

Something I would definitely encourage you to do as you bring your wife on board: drop the distinction of her as WW and you as BH. With extraordinary precautions going and recovery well on the way, what's left is to build the marriage you always should have had - and that's what Marriage Builders is all about. If you can get her involved in the program not as something to do "because she had an affair" but "because you want her to be happy in life and fantastically in love with you," you'll go far.

Markos,

We pretty much date every night and all weekend long! We only do a dressed up date once or twice a week but we try to do everything together. We try to follow Dr. Harleys model of meeting all four intimate needs per date but it can be difficult to get RC every night. Often times that just takes the form of walking the dog. POUA is pretty easy for us. And as my resentment fades, it gets even easier.

I listen to it most every day on the evening commute but the Android App gets pretty squirrely as I pass between towers. Yesterday's show got me thinking when Dr. H talked about living with a paranoid person. With my W starting work and her history of multiple workplace As, I imagine I'll start to get a little (or lot) paranoid. Time to put those EPs to work, eh?


Here's my fear of dropping the FWW distinction: Our new reality moving forward is that she is a repeat wayward, and she is VERY quick to fall in love. She has had two physical affairs and multiple "crushes". The FWW distinction serves as a constant reminder to me and her that she has got to aggressively protect her love bank and I have to help her do it. The last affair didn't even start out as an OS friendship. She was crushing on this POS before they had any non-professional contact. And believe it or not, my M started to suffer while it was only a crush. The sad thing is when the OM#2 started taking things to the next level, she told him (at first) she couldn't have an R with him and shared her past history with OM#1. Of course this just told him that my W had weak boundaries so he knew he had a chance, and took it.

I am bound by this new reality of rebuilding my M around the nuclear wasteland my W and POSOM created. The only thing I can do is clean it up. When it's all cleaned up and we have resumed our lives, and made them better than before, it won't be about the A and its effects. There's still a lot to do to get our life back on track though.

1. She needs to successfully restart her career, for professional and social reasons, and not have another workplace A. She lost pretty much all of her "friends", some because of the A, and some because of the move. Plus with every passing day, she is losing her professional skills. And besides, staying at home with the dog all day is driving her bonkers. Now that she is out of her fog she (and I) feels it is time for her to return to work, although it will be very stressful during the beginning. I have promised her I would step up FS and DS and make our home a relaxing, pleasant place for her to come home to.

2. She needs to get back in shape. That's not a DJ. She is actually the perfect weight and is an absolute bombshell. But literally, the day before the EA "started", she ran a marathon. The day after, POSOM FB messaged her about the marathon, providing admiration and affection. Once it turned PA, everything started to unravel including her health and fitness. The stress of managing two lives is huge. Even two months into recovery, she cannot run more than four miles. This is taking an emotional toll on her. I definitely don't want her to return to the pre-A fitness level. Her life at the time was one big IB. But I would love for her to feel good about her fitness as an integrated part of our M.

3. We need to POJA out what to do after I retire from the military in three years. This is the most significant POJA I think we will ever have to do. What will I do? Where will we live? We've been negotiating this for years now. Last night she cried about this and said she just wants to go home, referring to Hawaii. I think my actual words were "I think that's probably not an option for me" but she knows what I mean. I don't think I can go back to the scene of her independent lifestyle and affair. Maybe that will change three years from now, but I think it would be really stupid to move back to trigger town. Such a shame that she had to destroy THAT possibility. She also took Washington of the list by her first A. Why couldn't she have had her affairs in North Dakota? No offense to anyone from ND.

The truth is, while we are working though recovery, I still feel very much betrayed. The sting is getting better, but calling her DW on my thread doesn't feel right...yet. I have all the faith in the world that it will someday.

Changed my name. I guess I'm not "Mad" anymore. It may have been lost in translation anyway. I meant "mad" as in crazy, not angry.

Got this email from W after I ran face first into a trigger this morning:


She gets it. How can I not love her?

For what its worth, MM, I always took it to mean "crazy" - that's a pretty typical reaction from a newly arrived BS.

Love is a feeling that is generated by massive deposits in the love bank - multiplied over time. It's a very sudden change - not gradual.

Suggestion: don't bring up the affair to your wife, even if triggered. If it does come up, you two should get on another topic quickly.

I haven't read your entire thread but I have to tell you that my ex had fewer affairs than your W and Dr Harley gave me the OPPOSITE advice that you were giving on the PS thread.

He didn't tell me not to worry and that we could cut corners on EPs but rather that ALL CONDITIONS that make an affair possible needed to be eliminated, he suggested no cell phone, no email, and possibly that ex would need to work at a job with me to make another affair impossible.

Sorry but I found your advice alarming on the PS thread and with that type of attitude, I fear you are setting yourself up for more affairs in your future. Sorry

Well,

Like I said on PS thread...If my thoughts were not consistent with MB concepts, the mods should delete my posts, which they did. I have NO problem with that. I think she was being BULLIED after she very clearly stated she was having trouble with the all or nothing approach. Instead of giving links to threads in which NOT blocking FB resulted in a FR or second A, she just got blasted. The vets had an opportunity to really help and now she will be gun-shy in telling the full story if/when she posts again.

And how dare someone tell me my M is not in R because I haven't blocked FB or trashed my W cell phone (I know, wasn't you). I KNOW all her activity on those. What I don't know is what goes on at work so that's where my EPs need work. Right now all I have is that she has to tell me of any OS interactions...seems kinda weak to me. You can blast me, or you can help. Your choice.

The hard fact is that I get to decide which EPs I want to enforce, not you. Only I know my exact situation and what the conditions that led to the affair were. I have eliminated them without turning my W into a SAHM (great for those that are, my W would not do well) or trashing her phone. This is precisely within MB principles. I'm sure some cases require deleting and blocking FB, maybe even in PS case (which is why I truly regret posting on her thread), but it's not necessary in mine.

I don't need your apology either. I will take a congratulations since regardless of what you think, my M is in a better place than it's ever been - on the way to great. If I'm wrong, I will come hat in hand to the forum proclaiming my idiocy and update my sig line for Plan D.

Have you ever emailed Dr. Harley? Discuss with him about choosing EPs?

Good that you mention that. I was really thinking of that.

The last time I emailed him I don't think I worded my question right since he recommended Anger Management Classes when I was asking about resentment. I did mention I would get angry so I think he rightfully went down that path. But my anger was never a problem I couldn't fix myself. Once I realized I was in control, I stopped it on a dime. I never got the help for resentment, which I still suffer from occasionally.

I was invited to be a caller but I was actually on the site of the Navy Yard shooting on that particular day so it was good that didn't work out. Means I'm still here to work on my M.

I will work on the question. More for my W than for me though. She is more concerned then me in a way. Last POSOM#2 convinced her that her "restless" tendencies were normal. She was duped in the same way, always trusting, never believing what low-quality OS friends ALWAYS want from a married woman (until it's too late). Thank you for your concern that I receive quality advice.

Posting a caveat that the mods can delete your posts, does not give you a license to post non-mb advice. Thinking a poster is being "bullied" also does not give you a license to post non-mb advice. It's incredibly disrespectful for you to tell others how to post.



All I know is what you posted on the other thread, which is that you are cutting corners that you feel Dr Harley would even advise you not to cut:


We are not here to support you in cutting corners, but rather to encourage you to follow MB. Additionally I have spoken to Dr Harley about serial cheating specifically and I tried to help you in that regard -- that MORE extraordinary precautions are needed, not less. Of course, you can reject this advice. No one said you couldn't!

Obviously my help is not wanted here so I will move on. Good luck!!!

I think Melody bumped a "serial cheater" radio clip. I'll listen to it. I bet it will help. Lord knows I need MORE extraordinary precautions. But I doubt it's FB controls.

I'll be the first to admit to being wrong about other "ideas" I had when I first found MB. Check my thread. If I get burned by letting my W keep her smartphone, it's no one's fault but mine. And I'll let everyone know so I can get the chorus of "we told you so".

Believe it or not, I appreciate your input and the mods for removing my post. Of course it doesn't excuse my non-MB advice, but it does reflect the fact that I'm trying to figure this out and use my best judgement of what's best for my specific situation. I'm going to mess up, but I'm also not going to chase people away that need some compassion when their whole world is turned upside-down.

Like BH suggests, I intend to email Dr. Harley for help on my Ws EP. Right now she is 100% onboard with MB. I want to "put the nail in the coffin" of her adulterous tendencies.

***edit****

Here is another good thread on serial cheaters. There are about 6 radio clips at the end.
Serial Cheaters

Wow, Monkey, your disdain for someone who is reaching out to help you is sad. Susie is one of the sweetest and wisest BW on this board, who has BEEN THERE with a serial cheating WH. She knows what she's talking about. Brushing her off is only your loss.

The proper response then is to notify the moderators; not debate with other posters on the threads of those looking for help. Those who have been around here for a long time and dedicated themselves to using and teaching this program really do know how to teach it, for the most part.

When Dr. Harley counsels a couple who do not follow his advice, he focuses on their failure to follow the plan until they do. You may have been seeing that.

I agree. She seems like she's got it figured out. I think my thread got out of hand. Sorry for any personal attacks. It seems like some posters either walk or pull out 2x4's when someone only does 9 of 10 things and that's frustrating. If the one thing they're missing is exposing to AP spouse they need the 2X4. But what if one of the things is an EP that has zero chance of preventing another affair? And here, I'm only speaking of my sitch. I had no business supporting that claim from PS.

Here's my point and I've thought about it a lot. There's an EP continuum. On one side you have do nothing, which is pretty much what we did after EA/PA#1. Even NC for life didn't occur until a year later. On the other side of the continuum is we get surgically joined at the hip and share a set of eveballs. I know Dr. Harley has recommended some spouses stay together 24/7 particularly in the case of serial cheaters. But that can't work for us. I'm trying to find something in the middle...well more to the joined at the hip side I guess.

And believe it or not, Facebook helps me do that. My W has a SIGNIFICANT need for admiration and due to 16 years of military service (mine) she has friends and family all over the planet. FB provides two critical functions. First, I can continually flood her page with doting comments fueling her need for affection and admiration and it lets the world know I'm invested in my marriage. The fact that I didn't previously, helped set up the conditions of the affair. I know some affairs can happen even if EN are met but it would have been HIGHLY unlikely in my case. The other thing is that it allows her to maintain contact with positive role models including my supporting family. And besides, I kind of like her doting on me. We're a PDA couple now.

I won't go into details but I know her FB activity. That leaves the gaping hole in my logic. What if POSOM contacts her from a fake profile? Certainly that will restore the feelings of love for him and set us back to ground zero. I highly doubt it. He has zero interest in messing with MY marriage ever again. he was a pump and dumper. He didn't start the A until I was 4000 miles away. When I found out, I flew out to meet him. He nearly pi$$ed himself. And I still hold a very special "ace in the hole" should he ever decide to contact. He knows about this. Like I said though, nothing can happen on FB (from any computer/phone/tablet) that I won't know about.

And better than all that mumbo jumbo up there, I've got something that a lot of BS don't have...a fully committed Former Wayward. Just this morning she wrote the Harleys for help in establishing some truly effective EPs that she will need when she starts work in a few weeks. I'll hold off on my next post until after it gets answered.

Again, sorry if I ruffled any feathers. I have had great success in my career because of my belligerence. I'll keep it off the thread and aim it toward protecting my M.

MM, I read this entire thread last night. Having read your vigorous defence of FB and the undermining of Dr H's EP advice, I was astonished to discover that your W has had "multiple crushes", two "one-sided EA's" and "illicit messages" on FB with an ex-boyfriend, in addition to the two affairs. My goodness.

You were told in the thread that your wife cannot really work with men. She works in the medical field and she went back to work, and you should be very worried about this. I have access to Dr Harley's private forum, and in there I can see that Dr Harley warned SusieQ's serial cheater XH about the dangers of the medical field and told him to get out of there. He did not, another affair took place and they are now divorced.

I can't imagine why you continue to take pot shots at Susie, when she was only here trying to help you because of her own bitter experience and because she has seen many other cases like hers on this board. You are STILL attacking her when you say this:

"It seems like some posters either walk or pull out 2x4's when someone only does 9 of 10 things and that's frustrating. If the one thing they're missing is exposing to AP spouse they need the 2X4. But what if one of the things is an EP that has zero chance of preventing another affair?"

You really need to sit down, SHUT UP and listen to people whose marriages have been destroyed by serial affairs, and you need to apologise to SusieQ.

On the subject of EPs, which you are so anxious to tell us will not stop another affair, I want to tell you about my situation. If you are rude to me as you have been to SusieQ I'll know that you do not wish to get advice from me again.

On the other thread, you said that FB EPs are useless because you cannot stop contact where it is most likely to happen, in the workplace. That, for you, is a reason to give up on the workplace and accept your limitations.

Well, I was in that position with my H's affair, and I followed your logic, too. I could not spy upon his workplace email and phone calls, so I gave up on that and accepted the unhappy state of living with the possibility of contact, for five years after the PA ended. What I should have done was told my H's workplace about the affair (which involved his client and which would have been a disciplinary offence) and let them either sack him, or keep him while monitoring his phone calls and emails. If they refused to do either I should have made him leave and stay at home.

It was only when he was about to retire, 5 years after the end of the PA, that he was forced to use our home PC for the first time ever to contact his whore, and that is when I discovered the magnitude of the ongoing deception. Only now that he is at home full-time can I be confident that there is no further contact.

If that particular workplace is a threat, then your wife needs to leave it. If every possible workplace is a threat, then, if you want to avoid another affair, working outside the home must be eliminated entirely for your wife. If she continues to work, especially in the health field, then this is another affair waiting to happen. It's that simple. You are not going to convince any regular MB posters to support your lower level of EPs, no matter how positively you try to spin them. You can do what you like with your own marriage, but you won't get support for that here.