Its far easier if they start with dating than sex, though.

Dating and sex is not chicken and egg at all. Dating clearly precedes sex.

But it has to be the type both of them want.

Oh, I understand that.

Sounds like sex has been a long term complaint he's had. He didn't address it right.

So when he does try to address it in the right way, he can't percieve that his efforts are fruitless.

I presume they dated enough that they both wanted to get married. Maybe they were having sex then. Then something happened and he was no longer (or never) satisfied with how things were going sexually and engaged in IB and SD.

She lists her LB's as well (can't recall) but I do recall she said this was a long time complaint of his. He must see evidence that doing things the MB way will certainly lead to having his complaints resolved. If it appears only her complaints are resolved, there is little incentive for him to continue down what appears to be a losing course of action.

Indiegirl- we are following the MB coaching for the affection lesson there is no POJA. I make a list and he's supposed to do it every day until it becomes automatic. He just doesn't do it. Our MB coach urged him to try but he doesn't make it a habit. We could certainly POJA doing the program in the first place and we did.

Enlightened- I was moody because H has shown zero affection for weeks and none on our anniversary (he wasn't in a good mood, thinking about big-picture work stuff so that's what we talked about on our date)

H readily admits that he gets pretty good results when he consistently shows some affection. He says that doesn't make it any easier to force himself to do it. He does it when he feels like it and gets good results but we've never seen what could happen if it lasted more than a few days or if it wasn't sporadic.

Having zero affection during/after SF does not lead to frequent/enthusiastic SF. That is what my husband wants. That is why we are doing the MB online program and paying for coaching. He doesn't want "extra work" or to do anything difficult (his words)

I want our marriage to be an environment where my husband can get what he needs.

Sounds like he really doesn't want SF if he doesn't want to do the work he's supposed to do.

What does he say he does or is willing to do to show affection? I've noticed you've mentioned affection "his way" and affection "your way."

What is that?

H likes to show affection by groping.

I like a lot affection from the neck up. And nice words.

One of the biggest problems we've had (a root of most our SF problems) is lack of affection and my H's desire for work-free SF. He would love to have frequent SF that does not involve talking to me, saying sweet things to me, kissing me or touching me. He had a belief (from somewhere) that that was a totally reasonable thing, especially on/even on anniversaries I don't think it's unreasonable but it doesn't work for me and it has hurt me a lot.

Does he watch porn?

No porn!!

You say no porn... But you should verify. Porn sets us guys up for unrealistic expectations of sex.. Taints our view. Put a keylogger on the pc to find out.

I should say something else here...my H is so wonderful and considerate. It made it so much more devastating that my mostly wonderful husband could make me feel so bad.

Bottom line: my H is no longer in love with me because SF is so important to him and he wasn't getting what he needed. He would naturally show affection if/when in love with me. Until then it will feel forced and artificial.

Of course he wants SF. He just has a typical male entitlement attitude toward sex. I recognize it right away because that's the way I was.
I have begun to realize that it will be much better for me, too, if I do what my wife needs to make it great for her.


If it hurts you a lot, and doesn't work for you, then it is, by definition, unreasonable. Thats what I finally realized in our marriage- "This is hurting my wife."
cg, I think you have too much sacrifice in your attempt to make this work. It will only get worse for you until somehow he realizes that he has to change his ways.
Be firm in your insistence that it needs to work for you.

I've heard Dr. Harley say on the radio show many times that lots of men would like SF to be this way. Watch a little football together and make love during halftime. The challenge is learning to make affection the environment of your marriage so that it is done throughout the day without being a prelude to sex.

When affection is scattered throughout the day, you will become a more willing SF partner.

I would rely heavily on the MB coach to help motivate your H to learn the habits necessary for a great marriage. Keep this on the front burner.

This has been a problem for 14 years. He was 19 when we got together. We have total transparency. He doesn't watch porn. You would totally think so!! He gets so hurt and offended when I say he makes me feel like he wants our SF to be like porn/prostitution. I've done a lot of damage and hurt him by talking like that. He loves me and takes care of me so I shouldn't feel used etc.

I've snooped a lot and he doesn't delete stuff or change passwords or anything. He doesn't sneak or lie. I'm a big-time jealous snoop!!

I should be clear. This isn't all the time or most of the time and he isn't demanding any more.

Thank you I posted on the private forum and emailed our coach.

Well. I been with my wife since we were 15 and 16. I hid a porn addiction until just over a year ago. I swore up and down I didn't watch porn .. But I did. And it was especially a problem when SF was not being met so I would just take matters into my own hands so to speak. Afterwards I would be less attentive to my wife and a little resentful about lack of SF so I would then just head off and do some independant behaviours. I would also (like your hubby) be offended and hurt when my wife would say those means things also that all I wanted was for her to be like a porn star etc.

I'm not trying to make you paranoid .. But just to give you some insight into a mans mind who is not getting his needs met. Its so easy to slip into the habit and be afraid of my wifes emotional reaction if she was to find out I was doing that. So I would deny and lie about it. I don't anylonger and realize if I'm "taking things into my own hands" that I'm not as motivated to want to meet my wifes needs to encourage her to meet mine.

MNG

P.S. If you feel he's being honest totally... Then great. But in my case I just pretended I wasn't interested in viewing porn when in fact I was a couple times a week. No longer doing that tho as I retrained myself to stay away from it once I realized it killed my motivation to meet my wifes need and how it skewed my perception of SF.

Have you read this?

Aunt Pep's Sex Advice

The best way for "beliefs" to change, is through listening to the radio show. Even the MB coaches do not have hours to educate us in ways that we can educate ourselves. Hopefully your husband is taking advantage of that. Especially in the last week, Dr. Harley has discussed the "belief" changes that men need to make to be their best selves, happily married, and not regretting their life with they reach old age.

I know that it is scary to decline sex when essentially you feel like you are neglecting your husband's #1 EN. But until his attitude changes, why should you be sacrificing ? Fulfillment suggests fullness, and it shouldn't be ONE SIDED. It should be MUTUALLY SATISFYING.

I hope this is okay. Not sure it would be completely condoned by Dr. Harley. FYI, I do have my husband's JA to tell this story.

I was afraid to decline SF because I desperately needed it and had always accepted crumbs for fear that I would get none. I was tired of complaining and begging for certain things only to be ignored. For some reason, one night, it hit me that I was WORTH making love to and that I didn't have to settle for crumbs. I decided to stop sacrificing and rewarding his lack of thoughtlessness. I initiated in his preferred way, proving that I was more than willing to make it enjoyable for him, but then exited when it was not reciprocated. Mind you, I had been patient for a LONG time. Why build up more resentment? I gave a very clear explanation of what would motivate me to engage and follow thru in the future.
I needed verbal positive reinforcement of his choosing, and affection, aka LOVE MAKING. To feel cherished and important.

That night was the beginning of a turnaround in that department.

Nine months later, we were very productive! Guess What!

[spoiler]
My husband's got SKILZ!![spoiler]

Maybe your husband can use the following as a model.


"How to Say "Sweet Things" and Meet Emotional Needs

But you *DO* feel used when he is only affectionate when he wants sex. That means he is only doing it for him and not for you. I feel exactly the same with my H when he does that. The solution is NOT to pretend like you don't feel used, but for him to STOP doing the things that make you feel used.

It is easier to change behavior than it is one's reaction.

My H WAS also a groper and I felt like a blow up doll. He stopped groping.

So, be honest about how you feel used. And ask him to stop doing the things that make you feel that way.

Melody Lane...I communicate this stuff really clearly. I don't know what else to do.

Every time he gropes me I tell him I don't like it. I tell him what I would prefer. He's a creature of habit.

I was addressing your comment that you "shouldn't" feel like that, though. Habits can be changed.