You do realize that your wife is a flirt right? She is INVITING these men to make deposits in her $LB. Does she realize that? That is a habit that she is going to need to break to be successful.

MM, I can see right away what the main problem is and it is not your deployments. (Although I agree that the deployments are a problem) The problem is that her love bank is open for business. You could be meeting her needs 100% and spending 20+ hours per week with her, but as long as her love bank is open, via poor boundaries, she will have more affairs. She would fall in the category of serial cheater which means she is addicted, not to a specific person, but to having affairs. I don't think Dr Harley really picked up that the main problem is serial cheating from the sound of the radio call.

The main cause of affairs is poor boundaries. Unmet needs make them more tempting, but it is clear she has extremely poor boundaries.

Susie can be an invaluable help here because her XH was also a serial cheater.

Of course I realize that. I always have. She does now but I can't say that's always been the case. She always thought it was her "role" if that makes any sense. Everyone flirting and what-not. Her new job should see a significant reduction in that.

I got around to answering your questions. I'm a slow typist and I sort pick at a post throughout the day as time permits it work. I'm not blowing anyone off.

I did address the AOs. Markos has been invaluable in that regard. I stopped counting but I haven't had an AO in a WHILE. Not since I started working on it. Time will tell but I feel good about it. AD have helped a LOT but those are only short-term. A day will come when I have to stay even-keeled without AD. I'll have Markos on speed dial.

I don't presume Dr. Harley missed the point. I don't see how you can claim Dr. Harley didn't pick up on the main problem. We gave him and Joyce a full disclosure of everything, the advice he gave was the advice he thought we needed. He talked to her before the show and she was VERY clear that it was her serial cheating, EXTREMELY poor boundaries, and general concern for her ability to shut down her $LB for others that concerned her. I won't give you details of his private discussion with her (nor will I go into specifics that Joyce covered) because that is advice he obviously didn't want out in public which some other couple could see as false hope in their sitch. Well, I can say he (and Joyce) did address THOSE specific concerns you mention and I'm more than pleased with the [free] help she was given.

These were HER specific questions (word for word):

1. Is there possibly something wrong with me that I begin to obsess about another person with such little prompting? Why is it that I get carried away by very small love bank deposits that (I imagine) other married people can brush off fairly easily?
2. What are the best EP's to have in place to protect my love bank so that only my husband makes future deposits and I remain in love with him?

And yes, it is clear that she has poor boundaries. She's cleaning them up. And I'm meeting her need to reduce the temptation.

Good. I think you guys are going to be OK. At least I hope so. Stay vigilant MM. And stick around.

Well, you just agreed with every thing I said so I am not sure what you are arguing about. What is your point of contention?

I have to admit that I wondered if Dr Harley missed that your W was a serial cheater as well.

In his radio programs, I have heard him talking about "how to create a serial cheater" (not a true serial cheater), which is by not changing the conditions that led to the affair (not giving up OS friendships, overnights spent apart, etc) which is what leads to affair #2.

vs

A true serial cheater, a person who is addicted to affairs and having attention from the OS. This type of person is at very high risk for an affair regardless of their ENs being met and shouldn't be placed in situations where they will be tempted, period. He has talked about this topic many times on the radio show and to me personally.

The advice he gave you was for the type of WS who is not a true serial cheater but for someone who didn't change the conditions that led to the first affair.

And a true serial cheater doesn't just have extremely poor boundaries, MM. They have a skill set in getting attention of members of the OS and in flirting with them. They know what they are doing, but it makes them feel great and they basically have an uncontrollable urge to do it. Again, this fits with your W (that's what all these "crushes" are) vs the slippery slope of engaging in OS friendships.

So I admit to being confused by the advice you received.

I see. For starters there's only so much Dr. H can pickup in the fifteen minutes before the show. On the show he kind of spoke to the first type of serial cheater, which I think explains how the relationships turned into affairs.

But, I agree, there are some elements of the second type of serial cheater you mentioned. She does like admiration, but she does not care where it came from, and I really didn't give her any. During the time of the second affair she was getting into really good shape. She wasn't doing that for OM, she was doing that because of all the positive feedback she got period (men or women). She does have an urge to seek out that attention, from anyone. She does have a skill set in attracting that attention from men. She's good looking and isn't a witch. Where the model falls apart is that she is not actively trying to get OM interested. Her flirtyness pales in comparison to other nurses. She's actually quite shy. She understands she has a part in getting them interested and that is precisely an area she is getting under control, specifically working to be unattractive to OM. That she can do.

Dr. Harley told her on the phone that some women just have a natural tendency to develop these feelings. The change she needs to make is what to do with the feelings. Again along the lines of it's much easier to change behavior than feelings. She needs to share them with me instead of engaging the fantasy.

But, whatever type of serial cheater she is (my money and the Harley's is on type 1) doesn't really matter to me. I'm taking a set of precautions that covers both cases. In the second case, it does require a lot more work from my W which is precisely why she emailed the Harley's. If you look at her questions to Dr. Harley, she was asking him what type of serial cheater she is. She asks, "Is there something wrong with me?" I think it's pretty clear what type Dr. H thinks she is by the discussion he gave.

SusieQ, maybe we are on different sheets of music, but I appreciate your last post, it gave me something to think about. In particular, I don't really know how she behaves at work. I imagine her to be shy, working her butt off, and every so often, developing a (mostly innocent) crush. Because that's what I've seen for 15 years. But maybe she puts on a pair of scrubs and turns into a completely different person, trolling for the attention of OM. I have very hard time seeing that and I don't think anyone on the forum could make that assertion from the information I have provided. If there is anything in my thread that makes you dead to rights sure she is type II, please bring it to my attention. I will consider it fully.

I agree we agree. The contention is where you said Dr. H missed the point.

Thanks for the encouragement. You do the same.

Sometimes I'm surprised by the relative fewer numbers of BH/WW threads that end in a successful recovery. I'm so glad the Harleys gave us an "A" in recovery so far. Nice confidence builder. I CAN do this.

Boy, you said a mouthful with "stay vigilant". That's my daily mantra. Not just watching for another affair in the making, but for keeping vigilant about meeting EN and avoiding LB. So far, so good.

Hi MM,

I too was married to a serial cheater. Like SusieQ, I am now divorced.


This ^^^^ and that your WW "always" has one or two crushes on men sounds like type 2 serial cheater to me. Even if WW works in a military hospital...that is not much assurance that anyone wouldn't be stupid even to have an affair with YOUR wife...waywards don't use any logic and think they are too smart to get caught.

After listening to the radio clip, I am wondering about what Joyce pointed out....how your LB$ for WW is in the black but you are depressed for days at a time. I understand the rollercoaster very well but that sounds odd.

I do hope you are able to recover your marriage but like SusieQ and Mel, see huge problems. My two cents. Take care!!!

I don't doubt that. I also see potential for huge problems but right now she's on board. Part of the POJA for her returning to work is that I get to conduct unannounced visits and can pull the plug anytime. She can do the same. I think SusieQ mentioned we could do without the $$, and I agree. Maybe I'm playing with fire but we are going to try to work this angle.

I'm not sure about your other comment. I hope I didn't imply in my email that I was both "depressed" and "in love" at the same time. The roller coaster for me was more along the lines of feeling madly in love one day and not being able to look at her the next. That's all kind of passed but it will probably come back from time to time. I hope it doesn't, but with every dark day comes a lesson on how to deal with it.

I also know that a military hospital doesn't offer much protection. There was NO logic in the last affair. Just the other day, I told her if she was willing to throw away her family and marriage for an A, why should I feel safe that she or another man wouldn't throw away a career. Call me stupid, but I actually trust her this time. In my book, she actually earned it...there's nothing blind about it, I watch everthing. I know this won't set well with the forum, but I trust my FWW. I couldn't say that after the first affair or really any point between the first affair and now. She scared the CRAP out of herself this time. So close to losing everything and getting a ugly glimpse of the type of person she might be. I'm going to run with this a while, it seems to be working.

I just had a thought. Since this is a military hospital, any chance you could get someone on the inside to do you a favor and keep tabs on things for awhile?

To be brutally honest, I thought to myself MANY times reading through your thread that your WW reminds me of my ex. True serial cheaters are very similar.


Agreed.

Also this:

I agree with what FTF wrote earlier - your W is a flirt. I suspect these "crushes" and "one sided EAs" develop when she gets a man's attention at work and there is flirting and IC going on.

I am not surprised that you have a hard time believing it and I didn't want to believe that my WxH was that clueless and that he had just bad luck when it came to women hitting and fawning all over him. The truth is it was a skill set for him and it came very naturally. It doesn't surprise me at all that your W said she "didn't see anything wrong with it". My ex would have said the exact same thing and did when I would ask him about things that concerned me. Again, Dr Harley told me this is normal for a serial cheater and I have heard him say it on other programs (very good at interacting with members of OS).

Also your W said on the radio program that she is afraid that if a man even compliments her, she is worried about it taking her down the wrong path. What struck me about that is the fact that men are complimenting her. You realize that men don't just randomly compliment and fawn over married women for no good reason, right? They will with a woman who is engaging them and being very friendly with them. They will with a woman that has a sign that says "open for business". Again, I know you will have a hard time believing this. I did too.

A lot of other little things too. You recently asked her what she would do if a doctor at work touched her arm and she didn't have an answer for you. RED FLAG.

Serial cheaters are addicted to the beginning part of a relationship and it isn't too difficult to get them to end their affairs. They typically will also agree to everything the BS wants, in the beginning and then will slip back into old habits. Again, all things I saw in this thread.

But I know that you have spoken to Dr Harley and feel good about the path that you are on so I am not going to debate it with you. I really do hope that I am wrong in my fears that you are taking some risks with your marriage. I really do hope you guys make it. Good luck!

Have no idea if this will help you but here is WxH's thread:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2520703&page=1

And I saw your comment about your WW getting credit for calling into the radio show. My ex did as well, as well as did coaching with Steve Harley and Jennifer, and we did the online program.

MM, I do not think you are stupid but I do think you are naive and are trusting an untrustworthy person. After Dday1, the President of my then WH's company (and this a multi-billion $ company) told my WH (who was also an executive) that if he ever cheated on me again to get his stuff and GET OUT...and that he'd basically kick his a$$ (in the business world). That did not stop a Dday 2 with another OW who worked with him.

Here is my exWH's thread:

http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2370613&page=1

He was lying the whole time about the affair with OW2 not being a PA. The affair had gone on for at least five months before Dday 2. Like your WW, my exWH is an admiration junkie. I do not want to discourage you from trying to reconcile but I do want you to clearly understand the uphill battle you are facing with a serial cheater. I certainly am not privy to every single case involving a serial cheater but those I have seen, I do not recall a MB recovery happening.

HEY!!!


My ex didn't call the radio show but he did coaching with Steve...while still lying about his latest A being a PA.

Warning, I have a long post coming up. I truly appreciate the support and advice of the serial betrayed. You have given me so much to think about and the threads from your xWS will be an excellent source for me as I proceed. Yes, I read them all...Wow!

I struggled at the beginning on the forum. I searched and searched for a success story with a similar feel to my sitch. I didn't find a single one. I want to be a beacon of hope to a future serial betrayed, but I know the odds are not in my favor.