Okay, my two cents worth.<P>You know, what makes this forum most difficult for me at times is all the generalizations and categorizing that goes on. What was going on in my mind at the time leading up to my choice to enter my affair could be completely different than what was or is going on in the mind of any of your unfaithful spouses. I think everyone needs to be really careful when asking us "betrayers" what we think or feel or thought or felt at the time of our affairs. That's why I don't normally answer those threads because I don't feel qualified to answer. Many of you are dealing with spouses who will not end their affairs, do not want to recommit to the marriage, want to take time to decide, and so on. This wasn't me. I don't understand this thinking myself, so how can I help any of you? And yet, I am, according to definition, a "betrayer." So, what I'm saying is, I don't think it's wise to categorize "the mind of the betrayer" as any one, collective thing any more than we could categorize "the mind of the betrayed." We are all different. And I guess I kind of take offense to that statement. <P>Every time I hear it, it brings an image of a group of people observing a "betrayer's" brain floating in formaldehyde in a big pickle jar marked "exhibit A." Like I've said before, I know we all want to understand <BR>how our spouses could have done such a thing, and in doing so, we tend to categorize and set apart "betrayers" like we're some kind of oddities or something. When in all actuality, the "mind of the betrayer" is often the mind of anyone who has been holding onto a lot of resentments, may be attempting to avoid conflict, and is literally starving to have his or her needs met. I'm not, nor was I at the time of my affair any weirder or stranger than any one else on this planet. I was a very needy woman who had gone virtually my entire marriage (16 years at the time) without having ANY of my primary emotional needs being met. I was in chronic and acute emotional need deprivation. I was desperate to have my needs met. Someone offered to do so, and I took them up on it. Again, I don't feel that makes me weird or strange. It just makes me human. It's really as simple as that. <P>So, when you're looking for answers as to how to treat and what to say to your unfaithful spouses, you need to look no further than your own spouse's emotional needs and love languages. That is what probably what was lacking for quite some time. What you need to do is do the things you did when you first met them. Make them feel like you value them, you realize their emotional needs, and you are willing to fulfill them now. And God-willing, they're not too far gone to allow you to do so.<P>Climbing off my soapbox now. Hope I didn't offend anyone.<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

No offense taken.<P>When we post these types of questions, I think we are looking to find ANY kind of understanding. I know I have my share of falts in the relationship and I am working on the issues that I know were a problem and I am also working on the problems which I think were an issue with my Wife. But, I don't think I was such a terrible person and I cannot even fathom how my Wife could leave across the country (6 months and counting). Leaving me is one thing, but what about our daughters? How could she do this?<P>She may have told me extremely clearly (I don't think so) what she needed, or she could have been extremely subtle about it, but felt she was screaming her lungs out telling me what was wrong. For whatever reason, I didn't hear her.<P>Yes it's a good start doing things the way when we first met, but people change & so do their needs. If these are not communicated (sent AND received) properly, then there will be a problem.<P>One thing to note. Almost all affairs follow a pattern. True, they may start off for different reasons, but the general pattern of what is happening in affairs is the same. This is why we ask what you were thinking at the time.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

Hi new woman,<P>Thanks for that post. I agree wholeheartedly about the "mind of the betrayer". We are the same as everyone else. One of the points that Dr. Harley makes is that EVERYONE is wired for infidelity.<P>That said, I DO try to respond to posts from the people that are on the other side of the story. They are not necessarily looking at things in a generalized way, but they are just so confused and hurt by what happened that they want ANY information they can use. So I relate my experience and maybe they can be helped by it. Quite a few people have told me that I've made a difference, just because my experience might be similar to their spouses and so they gain some small insight. Not a bad thing if you ask me.<P>--airheart

CA,<P>Sure, there are common patterns. Almost every time it leads to either unmet needs and/or conflict avoidance. Then throw in poor communication, and emotional distance and there you have it. But what I am trying to say is, everyone, betrayed and betrayers alike, should be able to look at our own marriages and see the specific areas that were deficient. I can't tell you anything without having been in your situation.<P>You know, I don't understand what your W is doing. I don't understand how she could move across country and leave your kids. And yet, I'm one of those abnormal betrayer. What do you make of that. How come I don't get it either if I'm one of them? <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>the "mind of the betrayer" is often the mind of anyone who has been holding onto a lot of resentments, may be attempting to avoid conflict, and is literally starving to have his or her needs met.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ouch. That hits close to home.

New Woman -<P>I'm sorry that you feel that way at times and I totally agree with your perceptions of betrayers.<P>I do, however, think that the key for you is to understand that for the very reason that each person's situation has it's own specifics, it would be impossible to be of any aid or comfort or even just to vent with out some sort of generalizations. <P>People have to take from other's what is fitting for themselves and their circumstance. They take the good and leave what is not relevant to them.<P>So, perhaps, you can do the same. If someone's generalization offends you - pass it by and take anything else from their words that might be beneficial.<P>I was responding to a female betrayed and directed " What are we to do with these males - they're all such idiots" to her and what her and I have in common. Someone responded that it's not just males, females also....<P>Well, of course it's females also. I did not say it wasn't. I was directing my comments to a specific person about a specific kinship. Yet, this other person was offended. <P>If taken so personally and out of context or intent you could find fault in almost anything that's said. I could have had all the males scolding me - but they apparently understood my intent and the lack of relevance to them.<P>Hope this helps you feel better. There is certainly no intention of making betrayers feel like oddities, as I'm sure there is no intention of making betrayeds feel like it's all their fault.<P>There is simply not enough time and finger dexterity to write your specifics every time you make a communication.<P>I also, believe that people expressing themselves is good - even if they may tend to put blame or categorize to a degree. After all, it's their feelings, coming from their experiences. It may not be pretty or acceptable to all but the beauty of the purpose of the board is to let everyone share their mind.<P>So, again, take what you can and leave the rest.<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

Airheart,<P>Don't get me wrong, you HAVE helped a lot of hurting people. I've been told the same thing. But I guess I just want people to keep in mind that there is no archetype betrayer. We are different just like everyone else is different. When I hear you talking about your withdrawal, it is Greek to me. I didn't and don't feel that way at all. Where do I fit in? And how do we know that some of these unfaithful spouses don't think even another way? I don't know, I just think it's dangerous to generalize and categorize. That's all.<P>Sheba,<P>That's exactly what I do. I'm just sending out a reminder, that's all. Generalizations are dangerous, and not only that, I think they can even impede healing. But not to worry, I'm not saying my feelings are hurt or anything, because they're not. Like I said, just sending out a little reminder for everyone! Take good care!<P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.<p>[This message has been edited by new woman (edited August 19, 1999).]

Hi new woman,<P>I agree with you wholeheartedly. As Chris said I think a lot of people just need someone's perspective and help with their situation. And it's easier to direct these questions to people they feel may be thinking or thought like their spouse.<P>My H had his affair for exactly the same reason you did. So, I can empathize with you on not wanting to be portrayed as anything but human. Yes, we ARE all wired to have an affair. I believe that now more than ever. Although everyone who has/had them, has done so for different reasons. We can't speak for them on what their reasons may be. Thankfully, there are people here like you, who are willing to share why they had their affair. It helps us tremendously. Just don't be afraid to offer your perspective. It truly does help.<P>Also, as unfortunate as it may be. A lot of the betrayers that the people come here in seek of help with, are not willing to express their emotional needs. By asking people who have had affairs, they can possibly share what they were lacking in their marriage. Anything to find rhyme or reason with what's happening in their lives. That's where you can help. By hearing your side, they can take what is relative to their life, and use it appropriately. If we look inside ourselves deeply enough, we can often find the why's and how's. It's just that sometimes it takes a little help.<P>------------------<BR>The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart.<BR>Helen Keller

Hey New Woman,<P>And we meet again on common ground! I agree with you whole-heartedly. <P>I am in a constant struggle because I'm trying to put my marriage back together with a man who SAYS he wants me but who's ACTIONS say he wants to punish me. I was married for 19 years at the time of my affair, and I ended it immediatiatly out of guilt and shame, NOT because I loved my husband so much because the truth of the matter was that he HURT ME AND IGNORED MY NEEDS FOR YEARS. The OM met those needs. <P>I don't expect an award for choosing to work on my marriage, honestly. I was needy, I was hurting, I was lonely. My H was NOT there for me. And let me say this: he still isn't there for me. He pretty-much hates the sight of me, if his actions are any indication. He SAYS he loves me, he SAYS he's trying. I don't know what he's doing. <P>the one thing I DID appreciate about the threads asking us betrayers why we do what we do is this: when the offended spouse is 100% anger, it pushes us away. And where do you suppose it pushes us? I have not gone back to the OM, but it sure is tempting sometimes. Not because he is such a good man, but because there is - at least- something that FEELS LIKE (but I know isn't truly) LOVE.

I agree that everyone is different. I don't look at the person who betrayed as a bad person. But their actions were definitely a bad choice.<P>Yes we should be able to look at our relationships & see what we did wrong. But what if there is something we cannot see? Perhaps you may have felt something & if you express it, them it will jog someones memory & the light bulb will kick on! Likewise if you find something that works in the healing process, either for you or your H, then I believe it would be of great benefit to someone else here.<P>I don't consider you "abnormal". As I said, you made a poor decision based on many, many factors. I may have done the same if I was in your shoes just as you may have done the same as my Wife if you were in hers. I don't consider my Wife "abnormal". She was totally unwilling to do anything about it. She didn't want to talk about or go to counseling together or alone. I admitted what mistakes I know I have made & told her I am willing to do what I need to fix things. Yet, she's still not here.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

NB,<P>Well, I'm blessed in that my H has been a prince since this whole mess. I don't know if that's because we are both betrayers or not, but I can't complain at how hard he is and continues to try to make positive changes. But, no matter what my H ever dished out to me, I WOULD NEVER GO BACK TO OM!!! Now that I know how much b.s. that was, I could never go back. It's something I did, and it's over now. I will not lower myself to that level ever again. I DESERVE a healthy relationship. An affair is NEVER a healthy relationship.<P>We all come from different places, and we're all on this forum trying to help each other. If anyone can be helped by our words, great, but I just think people should be very careful, because they also could be hurt by our words if they erroneously apply it to their own situation. <P>If I could take everyone's pain on this forum away, I would do it in a heartbeat. <P>------------------<BR>Love is meant to heal. Love is meant to renew. Love is meant to oust all fear. Love is meant to harmonize differences. Love is meant to bring us closer to God.

New Woman<P>Good post. I certainly hope you don't feel like that all the time. Reading your posts and your thoughts have been more help to me than you can ever imagine. When I found out about my H, I was so lost - I had so many questions. I couldn't understand and I was crushed. I need those people here who've been where I was and can tell me to hang in there. I also need courageous people like you, to help me to understand that this wasn't the act of someone horrible, but of someone in need. You've helped me to understand that - opened my heart. And helped me to take some responsibility, too. <P>I've noticed that the people on this forum are amazingly intuitive. They seem to see past the words into the heart and soul of the member. We do sometimes speak in generalizations and you're right, that is wrong. And I've seen people get blasted. Wanted to do it myself a couple of times. but I've also seen a great deal of appreciation and admiration for members, no matter which side of the fence you're on. <P>Thanks so much for your insight and your courage. Not only for expressing yourself here, but for taking all the steps you've taken so far. And - thanks for the reminder.<P>Lori<P>

I'll add my thoughts to this post. <BR> <BR>I usually do answer the threads addressed to "the betrayers" because I think we have a useful perspective. I am amazed at how my perceptions, mind-set, way of thinking, or whatever you want to call it, have CHANGED from before, during, and, after the affair. For example, there were certain small things I always found charming about my husband. During my affair I was quite irritated about those same things. Now that the affair is over, I am slowly being charmed by those things again. I truly believe that the chemicals that are in action during the course of a passionate attachment to someone actually change the way one normally thinks. When I first started posting here I was in heavy withdrawal and thinking differently than I am currently. The changes are still going on. Since all the betrayers are at different stages of contact or recovery from the OP, we can describe what we think about a certain situation and give a betrayed person a "snapshot" of the sort of thinking that a betrayer engages in. <P>Any type of generalization is just that. When "men" or "women" are asked to respond to a thread, just as when "betrayers" or "betrayed" are, I assume the person asking the question knows fully well that not all persons in each category think alike.

I know I have asked questions and directed them toward the "betrayers minds" because I am hoping to get some insight into my H. Yes, each marriage is different, and I'm sure like myself there are those of us here who's spouses left....and left when like I didn't know anything was wrong, so we are groping at this time for answers and insight, guidance and direction to what may now be going on with our spouse or soon to be exspouse. I cannot get answers from my H when I ask. And even though we all don't know each other personally I try to pick out stories and personalites similiar to mine and my H.I guess you could call it a surrogate spouse on here. I have found some very helpful support here from both the betrayer and the betrayed. Apparently I wasn't meeting my H's needs and that's why he chose to leave, I hope and pray that someday I'll be given the opportunity to meet those needs and by asking many their opinions I hope that I'll be prepared to meet that time when it comes. We are all hurting here for one reason or another, and sometimes feelings are hurt and just like in marriage it wasn't intentional...Thanks for letting us know how you feel when this subject is approached. Good Luck with your healing of your marriage.