SusieQ, I don�t know if there is a copyright on the types of serial cheaters but this is my understanding based on discussions in the forum and what I�ve take from the articles and radio segments.

TYPE I � �The Repeat Offender� This type of serial cheater is not what you would consider a �true� serial cheater. The second, or subsequent offense was a function of the WS not adhering to the extraordinary precautions put in place following the first offense, or by not identifying the correct (or any) EPs to start with. This cheater has yet again left his/her love bank open for another AP to fill. Combine this with poor boundaries, and the next affair is waiting to happen.

TYPE II � �The Serial Cheater� In much the same ways that killing two people doesn�t make one a �serial killer�, cheating more than once doesn�t make someone a �serial cheater�. This type of serial cheater does not accept extraordinary precautions (though they may profess to) and they are perfectly aware of the boundaries they cross on a routine basis. They understand the addiction of the affair and want the high that comes with it. They desire this high along with the admiration and attention of the AP. They possess a skill set to get this high and disregard the feelings of the BS to get it.

Can both be fixed?

The repeat offender � Depends on the BS. To minimize the chance of subsequent affairs, it is simply an exercise in developing EXTRA-extraordinary precautions. The success of recovery hinges primarily on the ability of the BS to accept Just Compensation which is very expensive in this case, most of the time too expensive for the WS to pay. The BS also has nearly insurmountable resentment that must be overcome for a recovery to be successful.

The Serial Cheater � Depends on the WS. No extraordinary precautions can be put in place to prevent another occurrence, with the exception of 24/7 coverage. Since in most cases, this is next to impossible, it is incumbent on the WS to get the medical/psychological help they need and participate in their own path of recovery. As with many addicts, the Serial Cheater generally has to hit rock bottom to get the help they need, and it takes a lifetime of commitment to stay �clean�. Generally, not worth it to the BS.

What type is my wife?

Here�s the radical truth�I don�t know. I lean toward the �repeat offender� since there were no EPs put into place following the first A, and I didn�t even know about her crushes and infatuations until we started the RH following the 2nd Dday. She told me about all of them, unprompted. I have read her workplace evaluations where she is commended on her professional demeanor with both patients and coworkers. Every indication I have is that she is mostly shy (with new people, outgoing with friends) and only a very mild flirt, which she can likely fix.

I haven�t really said this in my thread because my W reads it, but�often times I fear she is Type II. But this fear comes COMPLETELY from information she has provided me herself, after we agreed to adopt the MB concept of RH. I would have never known about these �crushes� or �infatuations� otherwise. She gave me (and Dr. Harley) this information because she has the same fears herself and wants to make sure I know what I�m working with. I don�t feel like I can use that information against her, that wouldn�t encourage continued RH.

Whichever the case, I choose to recover my marriage as though she were type I, not because I am na�ve, but because that�s the ONLY way it will work for ME. Every BS has the right to walk away from a WS and I can honestly say I would walk away from a true serial cheater. I refuse to monitor my W 24/7. That was not part of my marriage vows. I need to be loved and respected, not be her babysitter. Besides, I have four years left on a military contract. I intend to honor all my vows, not just the ones that are already half broken.

I�ve got some personal pride at stake too. I carry some blame in the state of the M before both affairs. I am guilty of AO and DJs and not meeting her ENs. So part of me thinks she had the affairs because of it (that would support Type I). The best plan I have is eliminating all LB and meeting EN�s, that way, if it happens again, I will be able to walk away�held head high that I did the best I was willing to do�knowing for certain she was a true serial cheater. Right now�if I walked, I wouldn�t be able to look at myself in the mirror or look at my kids and say �Daddy tried�.

You say I have an uphill climb? No�I�m in the wheelbarrow�she�s the one doing the climbing. As a condition of recovery, she takes the lead. She may give up on it. I will have ZERO tolerance for any friendly OS interactions (including a �good morning� to a passing neighbor), I will have ZERO tolerance for IB, I will have ZERO tolerance for hiding/deleting any electronic activity. Essentially, I will take any infraction as evidence that she is, in fact, a type II and proceed accordingly.

The question I have for you SusieQ (or any serial betrayed)�If you knew your WS was a true serial cheater, would you have gone into plan D earlier? Or, would it be worth the Herculean effort to try anyway? I know what my call would be.

My H was a flirt for years, has had a couple of affairs, and some online inappropriate chats, as well as a couple of infatuations. Why did I bother giving him this opportunity to right things after his last affair during his deployment?

Because he promised to stick to the MB principles, including ALL the EPs. We didn't have this kind of guidance in the past. So we didn't know about EPs and avoiding the conditions that led to the affair. Didn't "get" transparency and integration. We both thought he had learned something. He would say after each one that the "grass was not greener." But none of our MCs EVER talked about EPs and the other essential marriage-building principles the Harleys discuss.

It's easy to have an affair. Dr. Harley says they are so common that if we don't actively protect ourselves, we WILL have an affair. We are no longer blind and dumb to what can happen and now we actually proactively protect ourselves and each other from our worst instincts.

My H loved the flirting and getting female attention, but he has completely stopped all of that. It took some getting rid of years of bad habits, but nearly three-years post D-Day, he doesn't flirt anymore. I still check his emails periodically for any sign of being overly friendly and haven't found anything in a long while. So MB is sinking in and becoming our new foundation of habits that we both live by.

We both wish we had known about MB years ago. You'd think this would be sort of obvious - the idea of protecting against affairs - but somehow we believed in the idea of being independent and trustworthy without any real accountability.

We signed up for the Online Seminar and found that once we established what it takes for us to have a great marriage and to protect it from outside danger that we are in love with each other, in a way we have never been before. I can honestly say I'm glad I stayed and gave him this chance. He is, too. I thought at first I was just being stupid or desperate, but really, it was because MB was truly our only chance and if we'd been following it all along, the affairs wouldn't have happened.

Final note: you should not put your wife in the position of leading your recovery. This is often called "Driving the Recovery Bus," and it's not endorsed AT ALL by the Harleys. It will take all the effort you can both put it into, but she should not be the one "pushing the wheelbarrow with you in it." It will take everything you both have to recover and have a great and safe marriage.

Sorry, that was for illustrative purposes. What I mean to say, is I think she has got to RIGIDLY (Joyce's words) adhere to a new lifestyle, where one false move portends certain doom. I have the work of meeting needs and avoiding LBs, where a minor misstep results in a stumble. I just think she has got alot more work to do.

And...I totally appreciate your post, particulary this...


I truly feel that's what got us here.

and this...


That singular thought alone has cost me more nights of restlessness than any of the mind movies. "Why didn't I find this site four years ago?" But I'm glad we found it now. Little sense crying about "what could have been".


EDIT: Thank you for directing me to your sitch. Read through bits and pieces. Good for you.

One thing about military folks...We have a tight brotherhood (yes, girls are allowed). Regardless of where she works, I will be integrated in her workplace to the maximum extent possible. A military hospital increases the "maximum extent" significantly. I'm sure some kind brother/sister will let me know if something is up. The other thing about military is there are always ALOT of tattle-tells. Mostly so they look better than the other guy, but it'll help.

This is kind of a new thing to me. Before this, I NEVER ONCE stepped one foot into her place of work. I think if a potential POSOM saw ME around the place all the time, he would realize he doesn't have a chance. Of course, they can be pretty stupid.

Yes, visiting our fWW's workplace as often as possible, especially "drop in" visits, will be great to telegraph your presence in fWW's life, and, for you to know who the various co-workers are.

Some more suggestions:

Have fWW put a photo of the two of you (which you approve of) in her work space.

Begin YOURSELF talking "we" instead of "I" whenever you have a conversation with anyone... eg. "What are you doing for Thanksgiving?" "WE are going to our family's house."
Encourage your fWW to do the same. It is a subtle mindset that not only announces your integration to the world, but reminds each of you of your integration. Operate as a unit, not as individuals.

Refer any help-seeking OS people to your spouse. If a woman asks your opinion on anything personal, refer her to your wife. Similarly, encourage your fWW to do the same. Joyce has made this point many times. At the very least, if a request of assistance/help/personal opinion comes from a member of the OS, answer or participate as a couple.

That's a great idea. Though I can't say I get approached very often. My W says I'm good looking and a heck of a catch but I don't think I've ever had anther woman ask me my opinion on anything. Of course maybe becasue I work in one of the last "Boy's Clubs" in the military.

Actually, all your advice is good. My W is sure to see them as she reads my thread. She's been practicing responding to the OS, by always throwing "my husband" into the answer. I'll bet she gets a couple of weird looks but it makes me smile to hear. Thanks

No, the serial cheater WILL hit rock bottom and agree to almost anything but then they will backslide. My xH wrote out his EPs and I saw great changes and then there was backsliding. I gave examples of this in the thread already. I have heard Dr Harley say this specifically and I can probably find the link if you want to hear it. Dr Harley has also said a serial cheater can recover a marriage but opportunity for an affair must be eliminated. Having a good M isn't enough for this type of person - they are want to have members of OS meet their ENs.

If LongWay's H hasn't had any backsliding on the EPs or returning to a SSL, then that is a great sign that he's not a true serial cheater.

But regardless of whether your W is a true serial cheater or not, the point of EPs is to avoid temptation. If I was in your situation, I would try to recover the M but I would not want her in the same environment that led to all of her affairs and infatuations. And as I have told you, Dr Harley told me he sees LOTS OF affairs in the medical field. She herself sounded nervous about how she would handle any type of OS attention.

I would not put her in the same environment where she has already told you she will be tempted and rely on her to use willpower. Willpower is not reliable. I would ESPECIALLY not do this when you are not even sure if she is a true serial cheater or not. She WILL do this again if she is a true serial cheater under these circumstances.

Yes I would have gone into Plan D earlier but I am not sure when a person "knows" a WS is a "true" serial cheater...and the way I thought of things when I was younger is not the same as today. If you read my ex's thread you will see that he admits to five As. Back then (in our 20s), two of them I viewed more as short lived flirting and being immature...not necessarily as adultery since there was no physical contact to my knowledge. The EA/PA that involved kissing was still hurtful but I remember thinking I dodged the bullet as far as sex occurring...but really who knows if that is even true given my ex is a lying, cheater lol. I always confronted my ex but back then I didn't expose and admit I minimized things in my own fog.

Just to be clear, when I post on MB, I only refer to A/Dday/OW #1 and #2 since that is when I found MB. There was a ten year gap between those three OWs and who I call OW1 (2008 Dday)...OW1 and OW2 were sexual affairs that lasted several months. Hope that makes sense.

After Dday1 in 2008, the ONLY reason I attempted R was because of my children. I told exWH to get out, exposed, and was kicking everyone's [censored]. My ex stepped up and did many things to provide JC and work recovery. We/he did practice EPs but as SusieQ said...he backslid. After the HORRIBLE fallout of A#1 and me PLAINLY telling WH that he ever cheated again (or even treated me poorly) I would be GONE!! Well, you can see how much that thought sank into his brain!!

After Dday2, some people were still asking me to consider R...ummmm NOOOO!! I don't care if my ex is bi-polar, chemically imbalance, depressed, immature, stupid beyond belief, etc...no thanks. No amount of pills, counseling, or "what ifs" would ever make me take him back and I have no desire to be a 24/7 babysitter.

I do not beat myself for staying though. I know I tried in good faith to recover my marriage but yes there are times when I wish I had walked sooner.

MM,

My exWH was also former military. I don't think you can count on others to clue you in unless you are close friends and share the same sort of morals/principles...and even then that is no guarantee...that is my experience in and out of military. Most people don't want to get involved even if they say they would.

Also, have you considered your WW crushing on patients? I don't know what area she works in but if she is a caregiver, there will be some sort of physical contact with males and there could be innocent/sympathetic conversations that develop into crushes.

I guess I haven't until now. I talked to her about it, she says it's never happened. Maybe only because of the patients she works with. She's worked with cardiac patients (either old or severely unhealthy) and recently she worked in a post anesthesia care unit. They're out the door as soon as they wake up. Her job now was chosen to minimize OS interactions at a day-procedure facility. They come in, she knocks them out, some tech does a procedure, they wake up, she discharges them. There's a few male nurses and techs but her interactions with other OS members will be pretty low. She'll also be busy as crap minimizing the opportunity for socializing. Her last job, with all the sleeping patients, left alot of time for gossip and chit-chat with women who do not value a healthy marriage. That's an affair condition I will be happy to avoid in the future.

I can only speak to my experience in the military. I would trust a brother in arms 10x more than any civilian physician/nurse/tech. And although, I really can't trust any man around my wife completely now, it will be nice to know he would lose an awful lot by engaging her in an affair.

MM,

Was that your letter read and responded to on MBradio on yesterdays broadcast?

If so, what did you think?

Played on WE: 10-29-2013 through 10-30-2013 FYI in case you need to re-listen to it when it gets placed in the archives.

LTL

No, I haven't sent in a letter recently. Was it the piece about EPs? We listen to [almost] every broadcast so it's likely we heard it. In the case of the EP response, he just read out the text of SAA (third edition)...kind of a generic discussion. He gave us specific advice last week that was more germane to our specific sitch.

Thanks for thinking of us. We'll listen again when it hits the archives.

Here is your wife's show.
Radio Clip of MindMonkey's Wife's question
Segment #2

Anyone like a good roller coaster?

The last month had been great. I was starting to think that 2-5 years of recovery didn't apply to us. We were the happiest we've been since...ever. I really don't think she has a single complaint in weeks.

But it happened on Monday. I looked back at my journal just to be sure. It was definitely Monday...Veteran�s Day. You see, I had been doing all the cooking and all the yard work, much of the cleaning and most of the family support since fWW started work three weeks ago. I wanted her to come home and have NOTHING to worry about�just to sit down, get a hot meal and as much time with me as the day allowed. It�s still well over 20 hours a week.

But it was on Monday that I realized I was doing most of the work. In fact, on Monday I finished the work on our home fitness room so DW can work out with me instead of parading her beautiful body at a gym. She was ecstatic about this...made her first FB post since D-day how awesome her husband was. It got 60 likes. Then I tucked her in early because she was tired and I wanted her to get a good night sleep. I didn�t even consider SF. We had a two week running record of daily SF so it wasn�t a big deal. But as I went about the rest of the evening, putting the kids down and packing lunches for the next day, my Taker started making a list of everything I do for my W and everything she doesn�t do for me. And it�s Veteran�s Day�she didn�t even mention it. Shouldn�t she have made the day about me?

I wasn�t that upset by Monday, I just recognized that my Taker was fighting for control. On Tuesday he did. We were in a certain stage of SF and POSOM pops into my head. I try to get him out but I can�t. I�m dead in the water. I�m embarrassed. We both know which elephant in the room is to blame but we don�t talk about it�no talking about the A. So after what feels like 20 minutes of pure silence on both ends I tell her this probably isn�t going to happen and I�m going to go downstairs. I ask her if I can get her anything. She says, no. So there I sit on the couch getting angry that POSOM ruined another perfectly good shot at SF with my W. That�s when my Taker reminded me that I was doing everything and not getting enough in return.

The past two days have been miserable. We�ve barely said anything to each other. I�ve slept in the spare bedroom. Mostly because I don�t sleep much anymore and I hate waking up in a cold sweat with my wife sleeping soundly next to me. I wish I could give her my nightmares. The woman I would have sworn I was in love with three days ago, I cannot look at without seeing her treachery and the horrible pain she has bestowed on me�And, I get to �let it go� and �move forward� while she gets the marriage she�s always wanted.

I�ll say today has the prospect of being better. We talked a little this morning and she understands my complaints. I told her I�m not feeling much love for her right this minute but gave her a dad-type hug. I didn�t want to be a complete jerk as I was leaving for work. I figured saying �I love you� would be a dishonest and not saying anything would be cold. We�ve got a great date night planned tonight that has the potential to put us back on track (or be incredibly awkward).

I don�t have a question, just being fair in my updating. It�s not all rainbows and butterflies.

Right there with ya, bro. Been there, done that. It can be rough, and that thought when it occurs feels... not sure how to describe it, but "unmanly" comes to mind.

When it was at its worst, re-reading this article often helped a lot: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5042_qa.html

It feels unfair, for sure... but one thing Dr. Harley stresses is that male & female brains are different. I can't find the quote right now, but one of his basic positions is that men typically blame themselves for the affair, while women typically blame their husbands. He usually recommends that an unfaithful husband must be penitent, "hat in hand" (his words) about his affair for recovery to begin. On the other hand, if that standard were applied to women who cheated, many would choose divorce over admitting fault; they see themselves as the victims, not the perpetrators. So usually when recovery begins with an unfaithful wife, she's not yet remorseful.

Eventually, if you recover, she will be remorseful. Once she falls in love with you again, she certainly will be. But frequently, that remorse is expressed not by her words, but by her actions. Consistently following the rules of Care, Protection, Time, and Honesty for the rest of her life is, in my opinion, the ultimate expression of remorse for her actions.

Please never mistake my plain statements of how things are for how I think they ought to be!

MM, don't push yourself into the point of resentment by giving your Giver free reign and ignoring your Taker. The things you do for your wife should be things you are enthusiastic about. If you start to feel unenthusiastic, stop doing them, at least until your feelings change - look for some other way to meet her needs.

When you sacrifice, eventually your Taker wakes up and starts saying "What about me?" and then it is out of control - your Taker won't think of your wife at all, while your Giver won't think of you at all. You have to be fully integrated, bringing your Giver and your Taker both into every decision you make and everything you do.

Hi MM:

Sorry you are in one of the rollercoaster "dips".

I agree with Markos; you are sacrificing. You OWE it to your fWW to STOP SACRIFICING. It is hurting your marriage. I will remind you that integrated partnership is the goal, not one or other of you being in control.

(Notice the handy-dandy weapon your Taker uses when you let your Giver run the show? Wow... wouldn't THAT be a great weapon for our military to have in their arsenal!!??)

So, what can you negotiate not doing? What are you unenthusiastic about? (Notice, it is not "unwilling to do", but "unenthusiastic".) And recall, Dr. Harley says each opportunity for conflict resolution is an opportunity to make LB$ deposits...

It's hard. I'm the only male child in my family (five sisters). I've been getting less than I give my whole life. I almost don't recognize sacrifice.

For example on Tuesday she wanted to exercise while I made dinner. I wasn't bothered by it...you could even say I was enthusiastic at the time. I love to cook and she loves to exercise. She really can't exercise AFTER we eat and we didn't want to postpone dinner as to not interfere with the rest of the evening. We basically PoJA'd that I would meet her needs and she could engaging in IB. I agreed to it enthusiastically. It didn't bother me until after our failed SF attempt interrupted by images of POSOM. If this makes sense: I was allowing a minor $LB withdrawal (IB) for my #1 EN (big deposit). It's good business sense. Only after the deposit bounced did I recognize the lower balance.

I can't really be upset about what I enthusiastically agreed that's already happened.

I should probably start by not being enthusiastic about ANY IB for the time being. I should probably assume I'll regret it later (I generally do). I just feel so rotten. She wanted to exercise on Tuesday because she had a hair appointment yesterday and a date night with me today. I'd feel like a real turd saying I'm not enthusiastic about you exercising while I make dinner, even though I don't need any help in the kitchen. Just the same there was a better solution out there. We'll work harder next time to find it.

Sounds like we have some work to do on PoJA, but I don't see what any of this has to do with POSOM once again interrupting a perfectly good bedroom session.

Allowing a minor love bank withdrawal is not good business sense, or good marriage sense either. It sets you up to become resentful. Resentment over the past is triggered by resentment in the present.

It sounds like you violated radical honesty, if you realized that her exercising would be something you weren't enthusiastic about, but decided to make the minor sacrifice anyway.

Or else you thought you'd be enthusiastic, but you now know you aren't enthusiastic about that situation after all - so now you have more information about yourself, and you know not to make this agreement again.

By the way, I don't think you're using the term IB correctly - it doesn't mean time spent alone. It means behavior engaged in as if you don't exist, behavior that does not take your feelings into account.

You don't? Really? It is PERFECTLY in line with your Taker. He wants what he wants, and he will use any and all weapons to get it. This is one of his most effective!

The way to CONTROL the situation (my suspicion is that you are big on controlling the situation...) is to stop sacrificing. Which may have been a habit that is so ingrained in you that it will be a real challenge to even recognize it, let alone head it off at the pass...

How about you have a conversation with your fWW about this? That you have a HABIT of sacrifice (or "compromising" or capitulating, whichever it is.) And you need her help in overcoming it. Because it is harming your marriage. (You don't have to talk about the consequences... POSOM visiting you in the bedroom...)

And then PoJA for the solutions, including an accountability program for you with her. You are working towards an integrated partnership, not two individuals working the marriage only from their side of the street.

And it is a gift to your wife to allow her to help you with this.

What do you think?