OK,I'll read the current 'Basic Concepts'.

I ordered SAA, and new copies of HNHN and LB as we gave them to our church library a while back. Just finished read HWSW a few weeks ago.

1st wife left me, probably for similar reasons. (I was her 2nd H. She and her boss, pastor of our church both divorced at same time, ran around together for a year or so, but didn't marry.) She remarried yet another guy and divorced him after 2-3 years. He was a good guy I thought.

No, W won't work with MB. Said she knows the concepts as read the books years ago and practices those concepts. Says I;m the one with the issues, and one who doesn't follow (1) what the books advise and (2) do what I say I'm going to do.

Thanks

I know how much it hurts to be told "you are the problem" even if it is true. I've been through this lately- wanted to work with wife on MB, she has read some of the stuff, but seemed reluctant. She was reluctant basically because I didn't really show her that I was serious about it. That is changing rapidly, I'm happy to say.

I finally figured out, through the advice of this forum, that I will have to lead. I bet your wife will come around pretty quick when you show some real change for a while. It will be frustrating because she might be committing some love busters, which you would like to address, but it won't work until there is a lot of units in her love bank.

It is mostly us men that need to do the changing. That was a very difficult concept to get through my head, and I still struggle with it sometimes.

But its true- women for the most part have wanted integrated marriages for a long time while men were pretty happy with the way its been for thousands of years.

Thanks, Neer, for your relative encouragement.

W is so withdrawn, she won't discuss anything with me. She feels I value others' opinions over hers. So, she directs me to 'ask a 3rd party'. This puts me in a Catch-22 of committing the LB of independent decision making.

POJA is impossible with a non-communicative spouse.

Thoughts?

There are schooling decisions for our 13 yr-old son to deal with. Our 4 other kids (from my prior marriage) are out of the house now.

W 50
H 59
Son 13

Thanks

I�m ashamed to say that for 20 years, I neglected my wife�s interests and needs in preference to many of mine. She invested in me and my 4 kids more than I did her interests and her two cats. When my kids had ballgames, she�d come watch them and me as I coached. When we went camping and boating, she�d engage, invest and participate.
I have been guilty of the LB independent behavior especially in the past few years. In the past few years, she has not wanted to do anything with me including going to church. She also dropped out of the bible study group we�d been in for years and I kept on going to it. Another thing I also did was, a few years ago, I started playing softball with my two adult daughters who have a similar passion for softball. (I had the similar privilege of playing softball with my father and brother many years ago when we were all adults. Both of those experiences are very high on my list of joys in life.)

We read Dr Harley�s His Needs, Her Needs, nineteen years ago. I recall discussing the independent behavior issue back then. But, I thought it was too radical regarding independent behavior. And, in recent years when my wife stopped doing things with me, I thought it surely, did not refer to going to church, bible study or playing softball with your daughters. I disagreed with it until just the past few months when things have come to a head. So, I have retired from softball, I�m watching church online and giving up the bible study group that we�d both been in for ten years, but she stopped going about three years ago.
It may be too little, too late.
I love this woman. She has been a tremendously blessing for these twenty years. I regret with all my heart how I have disappointed and neglected her. Even with her neglecting me the past few years, I understand why she has resorted to that and I still love her/
Because of finally agreeing with Dr Harley's aversion to independent behavior. But wife now does not. She says " you worked too hard for too long for us to give up IB".
I am �all in� for the complete Harley program, but can�t be foolish.
Any ideas, anybody?
Thanks, Remark
My MB handle is Remark, and my wife�s MB handle is JustDaytoDay
We married 20 yrs ago when I had four kids from 1st marriage. It was her first marriage. We have one child together.

What has changed over the last year since you posted?

Have you 'led' the MB program, as was advised in one post?

Have you followed the policy of Undivided Attention, spending 15 hours of enjoyable time together a week (minimum)?

What have you done to stop love busting with your IB? What have you done to put your wife's feeling above your family?

Little has changed. I listen to MB every day, but have not led us out of our darkness.
UA is an issue because she wants little to do with me because she feels like I treat her disrespectfully.
Yes, recently, I have stopped all IB.
I've seen my family less than in the past, though we are planning on seeing them for a couple of days Thanksgiving.
I think I put my wife's feelings above my family's feelings, but sometimes not above my own.

I believe in the Harley principles and work hard applying them.

In addition to these excellent questions. Do you have the book Love Busters?

Yes. Have many of the Harley books.
Working hard to put them into complete practice.

How are you treating her disrespectfully? What bothers her? What would she say is her top complaints about you?

I found your wife's thread and she is pretty clear that the problems are a) love busters and b) that you place your family over her. She said that you once went 60 days without seeing them and basically badgered and punished her:

here

She also noted that you usually will agree to anything but follow through on nothing.

From these posts, I've learned that my approach is all wrong. I have approached it by asking for advice on how to 'change my wife' rather than having the focus on what I am doing wrong, and what I can do to fix myself. I've deferred blame rather than accept responsibility and taken personal self correction. So, if you would please read on, please help me understand what I am doing that is defensive or belligerent such that she feels disrespected. Please focus on telling me what I can do to fix me, what I am missing in my interactions with her, that is disrespectful in anyway.
Thank you, in advance.

Friday, we had this e-mail exchange over the course of the entire day:
(She is 'S' and I am 'M')
***********************************************
Beginning of exchange:

S: I don't think we have the same vision for the future.
M: Why do you think that?
S: Well, for example, I think you're an [censored] to me, and you don't think you are. That's pretty incompatible.
M: Yes, I understand that you think I�m an [censored] to you and I agree that�s pretty incompatible. I�ll have to learn at least respond to you and your opinions better than I have in the past. I believe that, though I am slower to embrace Harley principles than you, if you believe in them, then we are closer in a vision than you might think.
S: Believing in Harley is different than applying Harley. I don't believe you and I have the same vision for applying it. Specifically, your current application does not resemble my vision for applying Harley.
M: I take it that is because, for 20 years, I didn�t give up my independent behavior hobbies, right? Well, I do now and I�m applying it now. Maybe it will take some time for you to see that. Or, are you still talking specifically to LB�s and me being an [censored] to you?
S: Specifically to LB's and you being an [censored] to me. I think you are committing LB's, you think you're not. Different vision.
M: OK, let�s keep track of that for a while, LB�s. Please point them out as they occur, whether it�s me committing them or you. I think you probably do already, but just the same, I�ll renew my sensitivity to that as I�m the one asking for them.
S: My point is that when I do point yours out, you don't agree that it is a LB, or even a problem for that matter. And vice versa. Different vision.
M: You�re right. It would seem the only solution is to eliminate them.
S: Both of us are unlikely to eliminate LB's that we don't recognize as being LB's.
M: I believe I know mine, but I would appreciate you telling me still when I commit them, for I don�t recognize many of mine as I don�t see myself as any more argumentative ( respectfully said) than you.
S: I believe you know yours as you see them, and I know mine as I see them. But we have a different vision so we don�t see the same ones or see them the same way. When I point out something you did as being a LB, you immediately responded with, �No, it�s not,� which some might consider argumentative.
M: OK, point taken and acknowledged. I�ll be more sensitive to that aspect of my defensiveness characteristic, and refrain from it.
S: Aren't you already working on that? Your defensiveness issue?
M: Yes, Always.
S: Then that's obviously not a solution to the problem. I find it very frustrating when you commit to do something ("I'll be more sensitive re: defensiveness, refrain from it") that you've already committed to do, yet are obviously not doing because you keep committing to it again and again. Your words of commitment have become trite and your indifference to that fact make your intentions appear insincere.
M: I can understand that. I don�t know what to say to that except prove it over time.
S: Which unfortunately brings us right back to the beginning. You're unlikely to work on something that you don't think is a problem, so you are unlikely to prove anything. If you were going to prove something, you've had more than ample time to do so.
M: Well, like the IB, independent behavior, you�ll see it when you see it. That�s all I know to say.
S: Granted, I finally "saw" it, but not until long after I no longer cared. Is that a good example of what you're looking for in our future Harley relationship? If so, I can do that, and you can take your time proving it, or not do it at all.
M: Fine, Yes, that�s all I can ask for at this point. (Notice how I�m now making sure a d definitive �Yes� or �No� is clear. A lesson learned.) I assume you will need proof in everything from here on out.
S: I don't need you to prove anything, I've stopped expecting it and have redefined my life accordingly. With independent behavior, even though you've finally given it up, I'm not giving mine up because I no longer care if you do or not. Proving it at this point was moot. If your example of independent behavior works for you, then how are we not already there? ( ... and we're back to the original point of us having different visions.)
M: Maybe this is what we should talk with Dr H about, different visions as we talk about independent behavior. The difference I think is my vision is in line with an interdependent, improved marriage based on all I�ve learned. Yours might improve the marriage from your perspective, but seems counter to Harley teachings. But, that� fine as you�re not trying to be a Harley spouse at this point, though you proved you can be in the past.
S: But if your example of addressing independent behavior is acceptable to you (ie. better late than never), then why aren't we already there? You're free to get around to proving 'it' whenever you get around to it -- or not, and I'm free to ignore it if you ever do. My vision of the future does not include applying Harley's principles.
M: Does your vision include us staying together or having an improved marriage?
S: You must have missed my question, let me repeat it for you again. If your example of addressing independent behavior is acceptable to you (ie. better late than never; still meets your definition of applying Harley), then why aren't we(you) already there?
M: Because I don�t see our marriage being better in your vision. Mine, under Harley�s principles, I do see us both being in a better marriage. If that doesn�t answer your Q, I don�t understand what you�re referring to.
S: Your vision only improves the marriage from your perspective. I don't see it the same way you do. I have a different perspective. Your approach is not matching my vision of Harley.
M: What then is your vision of a Harley marriage?
S: It doesn't matter, It's different, and endless hours of discussion about it has not changed your perspective. So now what?
M: I didn�t get anything out of that. Now what? You�re suggesting living together for Jake until you decide to leave? Is that where you�re camped?
S: The question was to you. I'm still trying to get your plan on applying Harley when you and I don't have the same perspective on what that would look like.
M: That�s what I was trying to ID, the differences in what that would look like. What are those differences? Let�s start with our common ground, OK? Don�t we both agree that what we have now is dysfunctional? Don�t we both agree with Harley in that in the long term, our marriage cannot be sustained at the status quo? Doesn�t Harley make sense that, over the long term, we have to do be of value to the other spouse and meet EN�s? (I saying that�s in YOUR best interest, not just mine.) Don�t we both want a spouse we respect and want to be around, do things with, and find interesting? I believe the answers to all those are �yes�. So, what are the differences in �vision� you�re referring to?
S: This is where you go back to the beginning of this conversation. I already said, for example, I think you're an [censored] to me and you think you're not. You're the one that claims to want to do this, so I'm not going to do the work for you. I'm just asking how your plan addresses the differences. If you can't even see the differences, then I feel it's not a very good plan.
M: I understand you think I�m an [censored] to you. So, I�m at all costs NOT going to be an [censored] to you. �differences in Harley vision� is a different topic, though, isn�t it? I�m not connecting those two concepts. I don�t see where I�m �asking you to do the work�. I�m trying to understand you, what you�re talking about.
S: Do you agree that you and I had a differing perspective on Independent Behavior, for about 20 years? For example?
M: Absolutely. I thought it was OK in moderation despite what Harley said (in book). You were more aligned with Harley.
S: But for 20 years, nothing I said could convince you otherwise. So *today*, I'm not interested in going thru that pointless exercise with you anymore. I believe that *today*, you are still going to do what you want to do, regardless of what I say, because that is what makes you happy.
M: OK. I don�t think it is a spouses� job to �tell the other what to do�, anyway. That would be akin to selfish demands, I think. They can express their wishes, their LB�s, and their EN�s, and their opinions. Right? It�s all a balance. I can�t place the entire responsibility of my happiness on you, and vice versa. We can express our desires from our spouses. Yet, both spouses have a responsibility to the other to please them as best as possible. I know I�ve failed at that for 20 years. Does that make sense?
S: Your responses are getting rambly again. Please keep it short.
Somehow you twisted my 20 years of sharing my differing interpretation of Harley to "telling you what to do." How?
M: Sorry, I quoted it from what I thought you said above in yellow. I misread the yellow as �tell you what to do �. My Bad. No, I wasn�t interpreting the last 20 years of you telling me what to do. I thought that was something you said above. No, I am not advocating anyone �tell the other what to do�. Sorry for that confusion.
S: I know "what" you did, I want to know "How?" Or "Why?" It's typed in black and white, yet you automatically took the offensive.
M: I simply misread it which cause my misunderstanding. My attention to detail has always been a problem. Yes, it�s type in black and white. Yet, I still misread it.
S: I have a different perspective. Mine is that this has been a long-term, recurring problem. You have a trigger finger on "being controlled," yet I have never "told you what to do." It's a huge LB for me because your issue manifests itself as false accusations against me, but for you, it's no big deal, "simply misread/misunderstanding." And since it's not a big deal for you, it never changes, and so I'm looking for the door. Do you see how this works? Simple, like clockwork, all starting with you.
M: Yes, I do see how it all starts with me. Despite all of the above, all I want to do is be in love and harmony with my spouse.
S: If you honestly believe that, then how do you explain 20 years of doing the things that have accomplished exactly the opposite? It can't be ignorance because I was protesting loudly all along, so your choices were made while fully aware of my unhappiness and our lack of "harmony." My logical/rational mind tells me that what you really want is something different than Harley, something more akin to having your cake and eating it too. And therein lies the crux of the difference in our visions of Harley.
M: I can only explain it as selfishness and seeing myself as normal when unhealthily comparing us to other folks. I don�t witness that only single people get to play softball, or golf or go to church or bible study. So, seeing and knowing that blinded me and lent in to my neglect of your wishes. I�m more of a believer and student of Harley now.
S: I hear you say that with your words, but your current actions still evidence something different. You still have a "control" trigger, regardless of being a believer of Harley. You still compare yourself to others, and selectively to make the case you want to make. "Selfishness" is the exact opposite of a happy marriage, and yet you still are. You've just redirected what it is you want now.
M: I know that it is unhealthy to compare, which is why I highlighted it in yellow. And, I was representing it in the context of the question, in the past. I�m not demanding anything now. I�m simply quoting Harley in that you can let your giver give all it wants now, but ultimately, it will resent it. �Ultimately�, means long term, future, like after 20 years, where you are.
S: (I'm not connecting your response regarding "giving" to anything above.) My comments were NOT in the context of the past (see blue highlights above.) In the present, you are still selfish, and you are still comparing. And I repeat, t herein lies the crux of the difference in our visions of Harley.
M: �Giver� and �Taker� are Harley terms. When dating, both parties are usually givers, sacrificing gladly for their date/spouse, as you have for 20 years. But, Givers ultimately get burned out and their Takers take over. I agree, selfishness is an enemy of a good marriage. And, I agree, I�ve been a taker most of the 20 years.
S: First I find it incredibly offensive when you explain Harley to me. Please don't. Ever. I said I couldn't connect it to anything we were talking about. At this point, I don't care, so just drop it.
Second, I said you are trigger-happy NOW, you are selfish NOW, you are comparing NOW. Not. The. Past.
M: I'm really not seeing my selfishness or trigger happiness. Why would you say that?
S: We just talked about your having a trigger finger about control (see your yellow highlights above.) But you still don't see that? This last statement of yours confirms my point above, that you're not going to change something that you can't see (see green highlight above).
M: Both of us are unlikely to eliminate LB's that we don't recognize as being LB's. OK, I have had a hair-trigger reaction to control. I can see that. I�ve felt for my entire adult like that �I don�t focus on changing my spouse (consciously), so she shouldn�t be trying to change me.� I now know that Harley says that (paraphrased� �If you�re going to be married, then you must be willing to change�. So, I am.
S: Would you also like to take a moment to defend/explain/rationalize/justify/excuse your selfishness and comparisons as well?
M: No thanks. I�d rather not be defensive, etc.
S: So what scale are you using to determine that you're not still selfish?
M: A scale of me making no demands, me letting you and Jake pick the shows we watch on TV, go or not go places, the scale of my personal depression and lack of joy due to our disharmony and confusion of how to fix things.
S: What scale measure you rejecting the separation because you don't want to pay rent? What scale measure you rejecting the separation because you don't want to go into debt? What scale measures your trigger about being controlled? What scale measures that independent behavior was fine when you wanted to do it, but not fine when I want to do it? Do any of these qualify as selfish to you?
M: I�m measuring all of the above based on a wisdom element as well. I don�t have a good answer. It may be selfless, but foolish to do leave or pay rent, or go into huge debt. What control thing(s) have I �trigger� reacted to of late? Do any of these qualify as selfish to you? No, I don�t think so. I think that negotiating between spouses allows both parties to have input, and say �That doesn�t work for me�. Therefore, both parties continue to brainstorm until they can agree on something. I�d like to wait and talk with Harley before pursuing an LS, whether you rent from me or I rent from you, please. We agreed to next summer not long ago.
S: Then can you explain how your personal depression and lack of joy due to you not getting what you want out of this marriage reflects being 'unselfish?'
M: Arguably, selfish might be to leave and start over and not have to deal with the baggage of past hurts here. I�m choosing what I believe to be the higher ground, weather this conflict and repair things, hopefully make things right with you. I�m choosing to make the wisest decisions I know to make.
S: Are you saying that the idea of leaving and starting over and all that entails is genuinely an appealing thought for you?
M: I�m saying it might be the selfish thing to do. It�s harder to negotiate and repair our problems than to leave and start over. You�ve mentioned similar dreams about wanting to leave, �planning your exit/escape, etc.� This email stuff is incredibly difficult compared to what I envision spouses are supposed to do. If the �idea of leaving and starting over and all that entails is genuinely was appealing to me, don�t you think I would have jumped at the idea of an LS? Let me make it clear, I am sitting here on a Friday night e-mailing my estranged wife sitting 9 feet away from me because it is my desire and conviction to work through this difficult period, repair our relationship and find new heights for my marriage with you no matter how tough it is for me.
S: Then by my definition, your choice is still the selfish one, because leaving is not appealing to you.
M: Yes, I�d prefer to repair than replace. If you want to call that selfish, I can live with that yet I can see where it would be in many ways less difficult than working things out with you. Do you want me to leave now? Has that changed? I thought you wanted to work things out for Jake�s best interests.
S: The topic is selfishness. You are still selfish but you won't see it, and therefore it won't change.
M: So, in your opinion, if I weren�t selfish, I�d run out and get a $280K loan? Is that why you�re calling me selfish? Are there other reasons?
S: Because you are the same person, and because there has been nothing in your life to cause you to change that. Because you're only addressing "our" problems now because you want something.
M: Well, I�ve shelved so many desires in recent years, that I don�t feel so selfish. Do I need to yield to everything you want for you to perceive me as less selfish? I�ll continue to shelve desires to do what is right.
S: Really? I can't think of anything you've shelved. I know there are things that you aren't doing because you don't want to do it without me (eg. work Christmas party), but that's not the same thing. What have you shelved for my benefit?
M: Well, being an [censored], being a slob, being a church goer, playing softball and golf.
S: Haven't stopped being an [censored]; you have a desire to be a slob but you've given it up?; church - weeks, not years; softball - not given up, season ended; golf - not given up. Do you have anything else that evidences how you have "shelved so many desires in recent years?"
M: Have I been an [censored] today? No, I don�t know what else.
S: So this: "I�ve shelved so many desires in recent years,.." Is this a lie then?
M: How would it be a lie?
S: Because you can't tell me what you've shelved in recent years.
M: I was referring to the things I�ve shelved in preference to your wishes. Sleeping together, company functions, etc. Sure, call me a liar if you were referring to permanent things as you have given up meat or the like.
S: You haven't shelved them, you've been denied them. You would engage in them again in a second, which by your definition would mean you'd be selfish again. (Please reread the recent exchange to refresh yourself on the recent discussion. Whatever your tactic is with this topic, it's not making you the least bit attractive to me.)

End of the exchange around 11:00 PM when she felt I had become disrespectful.
********************************************************

I know that was long and probably boring. Nevertheless, I beg of you to help me see what I am apparently blind to. Help me repair myself.

Thanks in advance,
Remark

One of the basic problems in your marriage is that you argue with her when she points out a love buster. YOU DO NOT GET TO DEFINE WHAT SHE VIEWS AS LOVEBUSTERS. <------Please let that soak in. She is the ONLY person who gets to decide what behavior causes a loss in her love bank. It does not matter if you agree or not. Getting your agreement that it is a love buster misses the point. She is telling you that your behavior is losing love units in your love bank with her. Do you understand? She is telling you that you are losing love units.

The only solution is to STOP DOING THAT THING. You don't argue or demand that she justify, you STOP IT.

When she gives you a complaint, it is like getting an NSF notice from the bank. It makes no sense to argue about it. You simply make a course correction.

When you stated in your initial post that she has been complaining about old grievances, I knew it was because the problems were in the present. You don't seem to listen to her and stop doing the offensive behavior.

That is where you should start.

If I were you guys, I would sign up for the online program. They would assign you a coach and Dr Harley would supervise your case. You could post to him on the private forum. This would work in turning your marriage around if YOU lead the way. I think its time to accept and admit that do it yourself has not worked. Dr Harley and your assigned coach would hold you accountable.

Do you think she would agree to go through this?

I agree. And your coach would help you stop your DJs and understand it from your DW's view. They would teach you to see what your DW has been trying to tell you to no avail.

Will you sign up?

Understood. Will do. I am so blind to my LBs.
Thanks for replying. I'm glued to this forum for the indefinite future.

I want to make sure you understand that the judge of your love busters is your wife. It never matters if you see or understand. What matters is that you STOP IT. Immediately. When my H tells me something I do bothers him, I say thanks for telling me, I stop doing that.

Can you do that?

I would gladly do that and have been considering it for some time. As I said I am "all in". Will pursue. Not sure about her. Am trying to first fix me. Until I show some improvement, she is not an option which is why I am keeping the focus on me/my communications skills, my interactions, looking to fix them first. Please help me stay focused on that.
Thanks, Remark

Yes I think I can do that. Am committed to doing just that. Owning the fact that I don't get to define her LB's will help that cause. Thanks

Will she go out on dates with you? That would be an ideal opportunity for you to demonstrate your changes.

So you understand and accept that when she voices a complaint, you should NEVER EVER argue or dispute. Your answer should always be: "thank you for telling me. I will stop doing that." AND THEN STOP DOING IT. DO NOT DO IT AGAIN.

As it is now, you cannot afford a single love buster. You have to be at 100%, not 98% or 99.5%, but 100%.

If you can get her to go out on dates with you, I would ask her to rate your behavior in an email after the date. She can tell you what you did wrong and what you did that she liked.

Do you think she would agree to do this?