Hello. A bit nervous, but my spouse & I are trying the MB program, so I thought some feedback might help me more directly. I didn't POJA this act w/my spouse. I hope that's OK? He knows I've been reading the forum anonymously for several months, looking for guidance thru similarity posts. I'm not discussing anything he hasn't already heard firsthand in some form or another. I will try, in my sharing, to respect his usual wish for privacy re: his feelings/actions, as best I can. This may be difficult, if/when I am asked questions, but we'll see how it goes.

Our problem: I've grown disenchanted w/our marriage over the past few years. The closest way I can describe the feeling is... boredom? I feel little if any romantic attraction to him by now. I often look at him & think "This is it, this is all there is. Just him & me together, til one of us dies." That thought makes me depressed instead of happy or comforted. I don't mean to sound harsh, but the fact is, it feels harsh -- to both of us.

He's a good man, kind & admirable, works hard, has good intentions. He's a good partner in day-to-day life. I know he loves me, he tells me often -- more than I care to hear, frankly, as I feel bad about my own lack of reciprocity! Logically, it's easy for me to list many positive reasons to stay in my marriage -- but my heart won't seem to get in the game. I find myself viewing him critically, often over superficial things which suddenly seem icky & amplified. Stuff like excessive body hair, slumpy posture, aging skin, constant throat-clearing, the way he smells. Yes, I know I'm imperfect too. I know his good qualities should outshine these things. So... why don't I feel the shine in earnest?

Over the years, I've found myself more & more enjoying time alone (or with other friends, not with him). I find myself wondering what it would be like to have a "do-over" life... another chance to be single & independent again... a chance to rediscover life as a "me" & not a "we"... so I could explore new things without another person to consider. A new career? A new home? A new man? Would these things bring joy or regret?

I moved out in late August, a "trial separation" to see if some distance would ease my fears & stress, or worsen it. I should mention that we are self-employed co-owners of our own business & have always worked together since our marriage. The separation is, in reality, kinda dysfunctional since we still work together. We know MB stresses a minimum of 15 hrs./wk UA time together. Tandem job time means the last thing I want after seeing my spouse all day at work is to see more of him before or after work... but we do NOT count work time in our 15-20 hrs. UA. We plan it outside of work hours. Add to our list of trouble-shooting: a career change for one of us would probably be helpful!

At first we thought my loss of romantic connection was hormonal, a mid-life crisis sort of thing. That's still possible. Perimenopause is on the menu. I was/am definitely having mood swings, disrupted sleep, indecision & mild depression. Tried meds for almost a year, but they didn't really do much (mostly made me sleepy &/or apathetic) so I weaned off just recently. There are other factors mixed in, which led us to really examine the marriage itself. I've been to a personal counselor, then we tried 2 different marriage counselors. Husband didn't find them helpful, so now I'm back to a different individual counselor. I've read & tried to apply a TON of book-based remedies on subjects from perimenopause to mid-life crisis to relationship self-help. No epiphanies yet.

We bought into MB this September. My husband purchased the books, then the online weekend semimar & finally, the CD set for HNHN as well as the CD set for LB -- both of which came w/the books we'd already bought, so yeah, we've got 2 HNHN, 2 LB & somehow, 3 workbooks (5 Steps to Romantic Love)! I've read HNHN entirely & am partway thru LB. He's the opposite (read LB & is partway thru HNHN). Back in September, we did the Online Seminar over a single weekend, as recommended. Since then, we've been scheduling 15-20 hrs./wk UA without fail. We've been listening to one chapter/topic each week, from either the LB CD set or the HNHN CD set & doing the corresponding workbook pages.

What I'd like to know is...

- How long til I can expect to feel some emotional reconnection to him? Reconnecting emotionally will practically fix everything at once, right?

- I think one of my ENs is a sense of wonder/discovery/learning of my spouse. Which EN does that fall under currently? I remember Dr. Harley said there can be more than just the 10 ENs he outlines in the book... so maybe this is not in the book cuz it's not a common EN? How do we figure out how I can get that from my spouse (ie. how can he learn to provide it?). Feeling like I already know him inside & out makes me sad & disinterested. I think that might be what's giving me a depressing "is this all there is" feeling.

- How long til I can expect to feel some desire to give or receive Affection &/or SF? I would really like to enjoy those things again, instead of dreading or omitting altogether.

Thanks in advance for any comments &/or suggested guidance. I registered 3 days ago & still haven't tried to search old threads for stuff like "bored spouse" or "stale marriage"... any links to similar issue posts would be appreciated. Nervous to press "submit post"... here goes!

Hi and Welcome!

You are in the right place.

A few things jump out at me right away as I am in the middle of making my love bank balance go up too.

1st: In order to create the right UA time, can you tell us what you two do? *this should focus on only Rec Activity (you should be having a good time) Affection, Intimate conversation and Sex Fulfillment. If your busy doing other things... go back to these four.*

Are you doing these? Are you having fun?Are you full of energy? Do you look good? Feel good? Act like you are going on dates? Making sure they are in at least 4 hour blocks of time?

2nd: You need to be scheduling 20-25 or MORE hours of UA time during re-building. 15-20 hours is a maintenance schedule only if your already in love. So up your UA (focus only on RC:AF:IC & SF)

3rd: I know as a person who is very curious, knowing your spouse can grow from many things. My DH is sending me emails about a variety of news or other interesting things and I am doing the same. When one catches our eye, I read it and then give him a FULL opinion on what I feel about it and why/ pros/cons/anything we can think of-as long as it is our own ideas about it. Then he does the same. Hearing new things about how he thinks on a million topics can create a ton of new territories and we have both been surprised by what we are learning about each other. Try it out! There are also other ideas in how to help conversations out.... brainstorm.

I would also say that it is a type of Intimate Conversation

4th: I would make sure there are no Love busters going on that can be draining your hard work making deposits. You have already mentioned several "annoying habits" that your husband has.... go read that chapter in LB and follow the program to help him eliminate them/and you for him now instead of later.

5th: Maybe this should be first... move home. You aren't going to solve this apart. Don't follow MB piecemeal. Jump in and do it for 2 months totally and you should hopefully at that point be in love. At this point, you guys are missing a few steps here. Dr Harley would insist on you sleeping in the same bed every night and never spending any nights apart. So go home

Your feelings toward your husband are natural right now. Your love bank is low. You two just haven't figured out how to meet each others needs well and eliminate LB going on. It is normal and we all can help lead you two into a romantic relationship. It will happen! Be encouraged!
It really is down to a science and a step by step process which is why the Dr. has been so successful.

What are you doing during your UA time?

Have you seen this?
Critical Importance of Undivided Attention

Absolutely brilliant post by Elaina! I don't have a thing to add since she covered every single point.

Yes, nice job Elaina.

Perfect advice. This is a huge missing piece in creating the romantic love in your marriage. You should be spending every night together if your goal is to create an integrated, romantic marriage.

Another booster would be to take a week long vacation together.

I see two things wrong here, the separation being the first. You need to be together to work on your marriage. The second thing is your screen name. You are NOT being a "chickenlittle"! You are actually being very wise. Addressing these problems now prevents a host of much worse consequences down the road.

Thank you, all, for your ideas & input. I'm faced with a steep learning curve on how to insert those quote-boxes you all use, so I'll try to refer to stuff you've said as best I can? Also, please note that my reason for taking several days to reply is that the UA w/H takes up so much time, I feel like I don't have much time to be with others, whether my real friends & family, or even here to seek advice, ha! I chuckled when reading another thread, as I saw some guy said his wife thinks doing the MB program is a Love Buster. Tell me! I know the program is grounded in good sense, but geez, the amount & intensity of WORK needed to do it totally bums me out. What can be sadder than love on life-support? (Just being honest. I think this might make me "the reluctant spouse" Dr. H speaks of, ha!) My counselor says my sense of humor is a Godsend to keep me grounded & positive thru unpleasantness -- as long as I don't let it mask things which need to be dealt w/in a serious manner. Doh! :-)

@BrainHurts: I'm inclined to think we're doing really well w/UA hrs. & even OK with the focus? We do try to rally around the top 4 needs Dr. H outlines, but have most of our success w/Conversation & Recreational Companionship.

Affection is going OK but seems forced on my end (H made a list of things he'd like me to do daily & I do them, only forgetting one or 2 items per week). Sadly, SF doesn't really exist right now... not sure how to even discuss that without getting bleeped, ha!... so going back to conversation... that goes much easier. H did note that he is usually the one to start the topics of IC, so I have agreed to make a list of topics, as a "grab bag" for myself to refer to, in order to do my part at starting conversation (more often, I'm the one who tends to do things together while not really speaking as much.)

We definitely do more than 15 hrs./wk (usually 20-25 hrs.), but we only schedule 15 as minimum, so be sure, as the rest does take care of itself. Remember, we don't have kids, we work together (co-own a business), still share house-yards chores & we have very flexible schedules.

Examples: UA time recently included shopping on Craig's List for ping-pong table -- something we were both surprised to see ranked highly on the Recreation Inventory, ha! An hour's drive each way to get the table. Then we shopped online together for paddles, balls & net. We spent hours clearing to a place in the barn to reassemble the table, went to town recycling center ("the dump") together to ditch the stuff we cleared out. We did all this over the course of 2 weeks, in combination w/other things... like going to a Mexican restaurant for dinner 2 nights. Going to a coffee house for coffee/dessert. We grocery-shopped together another night. And there was Thanksgiving, whereby we cooked together, making mashed potatoes & a pie to take to the dinner we were invited to (friends' house). We did some winter-prep yard work together. I have agreed to sleep overnite twice weekly, so there's that also (pillow time). We started w/one night per week & have upped it to 2 at H's request. We also spend some of our UA time doing the MB program each week (the CD sets, the workbook, or applying the POJA to various issues in our lives to hopefully solve more problems each week).

@Elaina7 (& MelodyLane too, since your responses concur): thanks so much for the time you put into specific issues

I did respond to this in my reply a few minutes ago (BrainHurts asked similar).

Hm, funny... yes, I'm doing as much & as best I can... but your enthusiasm made me grin. I'm not feeling in love, so I'm not exuding joy. Hopeful, yes. Visibly enthusiastic? No. You were probably closer to the truth when you said do I act like I'm on a date. Yes, I act. But remember, the date is with a guy I'm not totally into at the moment. I try not to let that show (ie. "the act-like" part). Yes, I feel good & look good (in good health & always have my sense of humor, regardless of my true inner feelings).

Addressed in prior reply...

THIS WAS AN EXCELLENT SUGGESTION, thank you! :-) I've already started implementing it, since I read this. On Monday night, H & I decided that I should make a written "crib-sheet" of conversation starters. I will work on it more this week. Stuff to get us talking more & NOT about problems all the time :-)

We are still trying to get a handle LBs. Unfortunately, our awareness is now increased... so much of our UA time is spent calling out "Love Buster!" whenever one of us does something to peeve the other. Once the offended calls attention to the LB, he/she must distill the LB from the specific incident to a general definition. Here's an example: I ask H, who's on his laptop, "What's the zipcode for X?"
H: Why do you need it?
me: I want to send (friend) a note (thanks for Thanksgiving dinner).
H: blathers on about how I don't need to do that, I can just email or wait til I see them next, which could be in a day or so, blah blah blah
me: Love Buster!
H: Huh?
me: If I ask a simple question, I want the answer to my question. I don't want a litany of reasons why, in your opinion, I don't really need the answer! (meanwhile I've had to get up, go online & get the zipcode myself)

Wow. Love Busters is a major problem. Remember the analogy in the LB book to the net full of debris... how if the debris (LBs) aren't removed each day, the net becomes so heavy & blocked, there's no chance of fishing with it? I think our net clogged up completely over 15 yrs. & now I have to fight hard mentally to not just say, "OMG, dumping this net & taking a break from fishing at all is soooo appealing right now."

I think what I'm discovering as I move thru the MB program is that I (mostly) understand the concepts. I (mostly) agree with the concepts. But I have motivation problems? I need tips on HOW to implement the concepts... or how to WANT TO, really.

SF is a perfect example. From all the MB reading, I think I can safely say I have "an aversion" to SF w/H by now. I want yummy SF, yes I do! But I can't seem to put SF & H in the same thought & get a desirable combination. SF has always been a weak link w/us, tho I've had great SF w/other partners before marriage... I didn't marry til I was 31 yrs. old, so I've had my share of boyfriends... hope that doesn't send anyone gasping w/horror & shock? :-)

Maybe I should change my Subj. to "Disenchanted spouse needs how-to's for true motivation, to push past reluctance caused by years of LBs & loss of love..." Rats, too long :-)

This is a GREAT example of a how a lovebuster can RUIN an entire evening. If my DH did that - and we used to do this to one another!! - the evening would be ruined. So you are doing the right thing by bringing up every lovebuster. Refresh my memory, have you gone through the Lovebusters lessons yet?


WE all felt the same way. You have to bring the body and the mind will follow. Use the people who in romantic, passionate marriages on the forum as your motivation. It really does work, my friend. So keep going through the steps.

Just hang in there and it will come. I promise!

Interesting. I see this in an entirely different light, for many reasons. First, just being in constant contact w/my spouse (once I had virtually no strong feelings of desire to be with him) was incredibly depressing & stressful for me. He certainly notices when I'm struggling emotionally & that made him sad & stressed, too. I was living on eggshells. More & more often, we'd get into unpleasant situations. I remember thinking when I read that Dr. Harley says when first starting UA time together, if it produces continued LoveBank Withdrawals, to STOP what you're doing & regroup. Couldn't this imply that it's OK for me to live apart, for a "stress-break" & somewhere emotionally-restful to go when I've had enough hardwork & trying for the day? especially when things go particularly badly? Here's an example:

Monday night, we were scheduled to have dinner together, maybe put the net on the ping-pong table & play, or do another MB CD chapter, then I wss planning to sleepover. I finished work at 6PM as planned, then walked up to house to meet H. I'd just had a fairly busy day of work, ending w/some phone calls & feeling stressed about my workload the next day. I don't have a long commute to decompress, just a mere 75 ft. walk to the house... so I admit, I was probably not the chipper, eager "date" a guy who's "dating" would want to see... I could have been, if things went well in my 1st 15 min. of transition time (remember "re-entry"? Dr. H discusses this in HNHN) Instead, H makes small talk, then we discuss what to make for dinner, then he asks "what do I want to do?"... which I thought had already been decided (ping-pong net installation after we eat)... so I was puzzled for a minute, pointing out that I thought we already knew what we were doing? So H says we don't have to do that, we can do whatever I want... but I was tired of thinking & what I wanted was to just follow the plan. Then H gets annoyed because I'm not "enthusiastic" enough. He jumps on his agenda-horse & starts to ride... & I start shutting down even further. He complains that I'm not trying hard enough, that I need to "follow what Dr. Harley says" (which btw, we both interpret differently sometimes) & I need to move back home immediately (SD, btw)... which makes me say, "Why don't you make me WANT to move home then? Chiding & pushing your agendas directly doesn't inspire me, remember?" (we've discussed this many times)

Conversation disintegrates, until H grumbles "why don't you just go" so I say "OK" & stay repacking the stuff I just unpacked (my MB books, my Pjs, etc.)... meanwhile, H is actually standing & pointing arm-outstretched to the door like I'm a pooch who just soiled the rug. So I quietly said, "Love Buster, disrespectful action: pointing me to the door like a dog." I thought he might cool off in a bit, but wasn't sure... so I had a small half-hr. work project I wanted to finish earlier but ran out of time. I told H I would leave the house, but wouldn't leave the premise for another 1/2 hr., as I would be in the office briefly... then went down there for some WWIW... that's Weeping While I Work... it's like Whistle While You Work (WWYW) only way less fun, ha!

Sure enough, H came down 20 min. later wanting to give/receive hugs & asking if I would come back up to house & eat w/him & we could retry MB for the evening. And then I have to try for that enthusiasm & hope I was telling Elaina7 about, to make it seem like, yeah, I just can't wait to hop in bed next to this man? Oy. Having the apartment seems to do ME good & tho he would never admit it, I think it does H good too... it helps US when I...
a.) have a safe, happy stress-free "home" to go to, in the event I need a "break" from breakdowns w/H
b.) gives me time & space to mentally regroup & shore up my "positive attitude" toward balancing everyday life (job, friends, chores, exercise/health) & the repair of a broken marriage. Having an equally stressed & frustrated H looking my in the face everytime I turn around (at work or home) is a LB!

Me having an alternative livingspace to me seems critical to our progress right now. Remember, I work w/my spouse too. I can't have my emotional break-time when one or both of us goes to work. I was started to feel like a cornered animal re: stress & disappointment. I do get the recommended UA time. I do sleep overnite, in the same bed, w/H twice a week.

Here's something else: when I'm away from H for an evening & following morning, or when he's not in the office the entire time I'm there, I do catch myself feeling better about him/us. I feel "softer" (only way I can describe it)... less disappointed or worried about what 15 yrs. of marriage has turned into for me. I can start to feel inklings of genuinely good mojo... but here's the ironic part: it's kinda built on fantasy & absense of real contact w/H -- cuz for now, when we actually get together, that feeling dies a fairly quick death!

Wow, I'd LOVE to have some tips on how I can get the positive feelings to STICK AROUND, once I've gone a day or so without H & am feeling good, then will be spending time w/him in person?

CL, I don't have time to read such a long post, but I will tell you that you should be living together and he should STOP the lovebusters. NOW. By living apart you are creating independent lifestyles that will greatly hamper your success. Being separated should be done only in the most extreme conditions because of the detachment it creates.

I don't need to read all of that to know that you are hurting your chances of creating a romantic, integrated marriage by being separated. I would start spending every night together and start creating an integrated lifestyle NOW. The longer you apart the harder it will be to overcome habits of independence that destroy romantic love.

ALL of us who are in romantic marriages felt the same when we read your post and I can almost assure you Dr Harley would say the same. He DOES tell people not to separate unless there is abuse that the other spouse is not willing to stop.

So, move back and start working on eliminating all of those lovebusters. You are on the right track.

Ok... This is an AO. You don't have to yell. From the Basic Concepts: Each of us has an arsenal of weapons we use when we're angry. If we think someone deserves to be punished, we unlock the gate and select an appropriate weapon.

Sometimes the weapons are verbal (ridicule and sarcasm), sometimes they're devious plots to cause suffering, and sometimes they're physical. But they all have one thing in common: they are designed to hurt people. Since our spouses are at such close range, we can use our weapons to hurt them the most.

Do you feel Punished by his actions... telling you to get out and standing at the door pointing because he didn't like your reaction to his SD, is a huge AO.

I think that until he can stop his abusive LB: SD, DJ and AO she is in the right to be separated.

Here Melody, you wrote: Original Thread
Angry Outbursts are the final and most inappropriate form of abuse and control. As long as either spouse can�t control their anger, their marriage has little hope of improving or being fulfilling. It�s not only an ineffective way to overcome problems, but it is also very dangerous. There are many cases every year of people who killed or maimed their spouse in a fit of rage, where they never thought they would do such a thing. I usually recommend that overcoming angry outbursts, and all other forms of abuse and control (demands and disrespectful judgments) be eliminated before trying to resolve conflicts, or even trying to meet emotional needs. Your sincere effort to please a controlling and abusive husband puts you in a dangerous position both emotionally and physically. So until your husband learns to control his temper, I wouldn�t even consider trying to meet his emotional needs.

Until he can stop his love busters, she will never be able to fall back in love with him and their marriage is doomed.


How to feel better would be for him to stop his LB first and foremost... then work on filling your Emotional needs. At that point your UA time should make the emotions stick.

Please listen to what Dr. Harley says about separation.
Radio Clip on Separation

This is extremely important advice to follow. It isn't good enough to call out lovebusters. You have to eliminate them, immediately. Those of us who have romantic marriages have zero tolerance for lovebusters! Living apart is actually encouraging lovebusters. You two are acting like boxers in a fighting ring, each retreating to your separate corners after each bout. Can you see how counterproductive that is?

See, I don't view that as an angry outburst and my husband is the master of non-yelling angry outbursts. He expressed his frustration, which is ok. He is frustrated and it is ok to tell her this. It is not ok to stand at the door and point "out" for sure!

It is not lovebuster to get frustrated and it is not a lovebuster to express frustration....respectfully.

She didn't separate over angry outbursts, she separated because she is "bored" and she fell out of love.

They would get this ball moving much faster if she did move home because one of her biggest hurdles is overcoming a feeling of detachment. She is trying to fall in love again.

But CL, you just HAVE to focus very hard on lovebusters. And maybe you answered this, but it doesn't seem you have gone through the book lessons in Lovebusters? Have you?


Don't you have a MB coach? Do you have the ability to post to Dr Harley on the private forum about separation?

chickenlittle, one thing I neglected to ask is if you have met someone else and fallen in love? Is there a male connection to all this? Typically when a woman falls out of love it is because she has a new point of comparison.

Is there someone else?

CL, another thing that really bothers me about this is that your husband now has a much higher benchmark to meet because he is competing with your "other" life. This creates a contrast effect that harms your efforts. You have an independent life that is free of conflict so in comparison, your conflicted marriage will lose every time. That is a losing proposition. That is why separation is so bad for marriages.

Your marriage has come out of the state of withdrawal into the state of conflict and that is a good thing, not a bad thing. It HAS to go through that in order to reach the next level, which is the state of intimacy.

Dr Harley would tell you to eliminate anything that would create a negative contrast effect to your time spent with your husband. Once you and your H fall in love again, you can add things back individual hobbies as long as your favorite leisure time is with him.

And that can't really happen as long as you live apart in your own apartment and conduct a completely independent lifestyle from him.