The biggest thing I've learned here is that I don't have to act on every thought and feeling I have. If I think something disrespectful toward my wife, I don't have to say it, for example. Or if she makes me feel frustrated, I don't have to take it out on her.

Dr. Harley would say that the trying not to think about it approach doesn't work. What does work is removing as many triggers as can be removed, and then not dwelling on it when it does happen.

You couldn't pick a better example of what being consumed by anger will do for you!

I would suggest you just say "I've been triggered," end the sex, and put some TV on or do something fun and enjoyable. Don't talk about it any more than you have to. Yes it would be great if she said something, but she's probably afraid of the angry outburst that will come next and doesn't know what if anything she can do. And as LongWay noted, perpetual apologies don't really solve anything.

And no your resentment doesn't "come flooding out in the form of DJs." Your resentment is not a person and doesn't take action. You do.


Is there basically a problem that you are trying to have SF in a way that your wife did with the OM? Maybe you could just skip doing it that way.

Contrary to all the evidence the forum thinks they have, I am a highly intelligent person. In fact that's part of the problem. My brain is ALWAYS on overdrive.

I've thought about this already and put it into practice. It's not really that hard because she only did it once with him and most people don't get all crazy on their first time. By her testimony, they certainly didn't. In fact, she says even the one time was pathetic. She's always been very adventurous with me, so plenty of ways to skin that cat. For weeks everything had been working great. I mean GREAT.

Here's the kicker. The last time we were making love I reminded myself to avoid kissing too long and certain sexual positions. Now without getting specific, there are some fun positions that border on "impersonal", if you know what I mean. And midway through I realized by doing this, I was not making love at all. I was just having sex. I can't even say it was a trigger. Just a sad realization that one more thing (a very important thing) was taken away from me. I immediately felt like I would NEVER be able to actually make love to my wife. In truth, we've been making love great all along and it has been very personal. But at that moment when the thought pops in my head (however absurd) it literally shuts everything down.

The quick reaction EMOTIONAL response is: "Great! Now I can't even make love to my wife (ignoring the fact that I've done plenty of times). What's the point? I certainly can't be married to someone I can't even make love to. This is pointless." Then follows a series of DJs that I won't write because it just adds disrespect to a thread W will read.

Then Mr. Obsession comes over and commiserates with me for the next 24 hours coming up with plans and thinking about how great single life will be and how I won't have to face my abuser, yada yada yada. Then...Mr. Compulsion comes in and we start putting these half-hatched plans into action. He's a man of action and not prone to emotional distractions so it's real easy to calmly explain to W that divorce is indeed to best and only option and when she objects, I give her another SD to chew on while we handle this very important business. Eventually, Mr. Logic hears all the commotion, kicks me in the junk and says, �WTF man!�

WTF, indeed.

These aren't the ramblings of a madman, just organizing my thoughts. What�s the solution? I think a start is identifying NEVER as a BAD WORD� a dead canary in the coal mine. Hold my breath, back out quickly and don�t make any decisions (or say anything) until I see the light of the warm sun. Then make a LOGICAL decision.

It sounds to me like your reason and rationality is realizing that acting on a feeling of hopelessness is not serving you well and that it would be better when you feel that way to calm down first before making any snap decisions or taking any action.

If so - you are coming to grips with one of the most important, life changing lessons that Marriage Builders has to offer.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. The only evidence we have is two radio shows and what you and your wife have posted. I don't remember coming to any kind of conclusion about you, other than that you can sure do an about face quickly, and taking that to be an instinctual response.

Whatever your thought process, you would do well to make up your mind and stick to your decision. Letting thoughts during SF cause you to totally derail is not evidence of a sound decision process. If you choose recovery, you need to stick to it if you are to have any hope of succeeding. Recovery is hard. We know that, because we have been there. Nothing is worse for your mental well being than allowing yourself to be emotionally blown about by the wind.

What I should have said was I USED to be an intelligent and highly LOGICAL person (with a bit of an emotional side). You can't get to my position if you aren't.

The evidence the forum has is that I'm highly reactive and make decisions EMOTIONALLY. That's because I am, for the most part now.

I don't recall your exact sitch but if memory serves it wasn't similar enough to mine for you to make the claim that I'm getting "blown about by the wind". You can't possibly understand how significant something is to ME. You have no idea how "derailing" images of two fat men having sex with your wife can be when they show up during your intimate moments.

I don't think I'll take your advice of making up my mind and sticking to a decision with "whatever the thought process" I come up with. I'm seeing Dr. Harley's point where I should get my mind strait first, separate the EMOTIONAL and LOGICAL outcomes, and THEN make a decision. Easier said than done...

Everybody only knows what they know, and until Dday, I only knew of myself to be extremely logical and very rapid at decision making and by and large my decisions were very good. So it's really taken me a few months and more than a few bad decisions to realize that my previous assumptions were no longer correct, and my rapid decisions were completely void of LOGIC.

I've had to recognize that since Dday, I am now a highly EMOTIONAL person. So to prevent bad decisions I need to SLOW down the decision making process and keep my mouth shut until I can find the LOGIC*. I only hope I�m not this way forever. I don�t like it one bit.

Edit: *kinda like Markos said above.

This has been my antidote to non-logical, emotional, reactive thinking:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi4200_radio.html

Hundreds (thousands?) of hours listened to, now. Lots of time with a biofeedback meter.

Dr. Harley has a personality test he administers to those he counsels. The test roughly measures how emotional/reactive someone is and how much that affects their decisions in life. I basically scored off the top of the charts. MelodyLane posted somewhere about the scoring range on that test and said that when she took the Marriage Builders seminar in 2007, Dr. Harley indicated that people in that range tend to be in jail, saying basically they had a "Saddam Hussein" type personality.

Dr. Harley told me that my hope comes from the fact that I am very intelligent and can use that intelligence to override my emotional instincts and make better decisions for myself.

Maybe you will find the same to be true for you as well.

You are free to do whatever you want. I am only trying to help you. But Dr. Harley advocates BSs deciding what they want to do, and then putting a 100 % effort behind any decision to recover. I have been listening to the radio show for years now, and I have never heard Dr. Harley tell anybody to go fix themselves first, and then make up their mind after that.

Emotions have no intelligence though. They change daily with the ebb and tide. When you base your decisions on fleeting emotions instead of reason, logic and facts, you are playing Russian roulette with your life. Keep in mind that this is how teenage gurls make decisions.

MM,
You have taken a terrible blow and it is going to leave scars.Dr. Harley has said many times that short of total brain injury the memory will always be there.That's the scars.

You can live with scars but you have to allow the wound to heal. Creating a romantic marriage with your wife and putting in EP's changing the conditions that led to WW" A all are what MB does to help you heal.

But it will never heal if you keep picking at the wound.I.E. your LB's.

Every one here wants to see you make it. IF divorce is what you decide no one will think any less of you.

If you decide that it is in your best interest to save your marriage and have a better one than before the A"s then the path is narrow you can't pick and chose which MB principles you want to follow.

Punishing your wife will not make your HD images fade. Creating a great MB marriage will but like scars it does take time.

I am 2 years and 3 months out from D-Day. Me winning DW back came easy followed MB and worked hard at it. The challenge was to stop dwelling on the fact that we were no longer each others only SF partner... I'm 52 that was a monster believe me.

I trusted in God and what I had learned from MB and keep the course. Well a lot of 2x4's from the wonderful people here helped also!

The images and thoughts faded as DW and I built that romantic relationship here .. now... in the present! MB does work my friend! Best of luck to you
wle2

MM;

How are you doing?

It looks like you are having a very difficult time, indeed....

Mindmonkey, I was happy to hear you talk to Dr. Harley today. I missed the last few minutes, but what did you think of what he said?

Aside from the horror of hearing my own voice muffled by a cold and what must have been a bad setting on a brand new phone, I think the call was helpful. I�m still sorting through what we talked about including some concepts that I really didn�t like hearing.

In particular, he said that most of what she said in the �fog� was actually TRUE. Up until yesterday, I felt reassured by the fact that it was some alien using my wife�s body spouting nonsense during the fog to justify her affair and treatment of me. Now, am I to understand it was really her all along and those horrible things she said were her true feelings? I�m figuring out what this means. On the one hand, it means I have all the answers as to the marriage she wants�a good thing indeed. But I would have rather had those answers without dealing with the pain of infidelity. This is exactly where I get the feeling she had the affair on purpose�just to show me she was serious�like Dr. Harley said �she was setting me straight.� I guess she did in the end.

I also didn�t care for the idea that she had the affair because �I wasn�t there� as Dr. Harley said. That seems a bit like it was my fault. I know that�s not what he meant, but I am sensitive to the idea.


I�ll also note that Dr. Harley did not suggest she separate from me as some people are suggesting she does. He says I need to stop saying things that hurt her before she loses too much love for me. This is something I understand and continue to work on.

Here�s what I gather the next steps are from the discussion:
1. Stop �punishing� her. She did disgusting and horrible things, knows it, and has to live with it forever. The score is even.
2. Stop sacrificing which is leading to additional resentments on top of the one�s I already have. One big exception here is the fact that I have to give up my career which, as Dr. Harley states, has been destructive in my marriage. I am finding it difficult to be enthusiastic throwing away a career because my wife cannot be separated from me overnight.
3. Encourage total openness and honesty so that she can tell me when she finds someone attractive. I think this is going well so far. She told me she found one particular man attractive at her work a few weeks ago and I had no problem with this at all.
4. Practice respectful OH myself so DW knows where she is falling short at meeting my needs. And in the same respect, allow her to meet those needs.
5. Never mention divorce or separation again unless I intend to follow through.
6. Continue with the 20+ hours a week of UA time.

I couldn�t agree more that DW and I are VERY compatible. Like Dr. Harley said, when I�m not angry with her, it�s so obvious that we are each with the right person. I can�t imagine getting divorced and finding another woman that fits me as well...ever.

I�ll revisit the broadcast again if BH can post it after it hits the archives. I�m sure there�s more that I�m missing.

You're on my list, and so yes I will post it.

You shouldn't have had a career that doesn't complement your marriage in the first place. When you choose a career, the first question should be: does this complement my marriage? Or does it harm it? If it does not complement it, which no traveling job does, then it should be rejected.

NO WIFE should be separated overnight from her husband. That has nothing to do with your wife in particular. That rule applies to ANY marriage that wants to avoid affairs. Spending nights apart is an invitation to an affair in ALL marriages, not just yours. It is not a sacrifice to give up something that has been terrible for your marriage, it shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Btw, Dr Harley and Joyce travel and they never spend the nights apart. Even when Joyce goes to women's retreats, Dr Harley goes with her!!

Yes, I bristled when I heard that too and it made me think about my sitch. Kiss said some pretty terrible things about me whe he was foggy. I see a lot of justification in it as well. But, if I look close at them there was some truth to them, just that he exaggerated it. So, I took what he said and cleaned up my side of the street. That's not true for every BS, but I think the point is that we have to take a close look at what we were doing wrong (unmet ENs and LBs) and work on them to show that we are willing to be the spouse they want.


I think his point was that your absence made her vulnerable for an affair but her terrible boundaries was why she had the affair. Not that your absence was the reason. Just like Kiss' unmet needs made him vulnerable to an affair, but was not the reason. My needs were unmet for many years but I didn't have an affair.


Exactly, work the program. Focus on the concepts and I really think that your marriage will look more promising to you. As far as the resentment, that is a monster that you will have to tackle on your own, but time and moving forward will make that mountain smaller and smaller.

I'm going to disagree on a very specific point. You can see from my signature line that I am in the military. I was before I was married. It's the ugly side of the world we live in that we need a strong military, and that intrinsically requires nights (and more) apart. It is a sacrifice for all parties involved for the greater good.

We can't have a military made up of single men and women. It wouldn't work for a host of reasons.

Military life is, for many married folks, a complement to their marriage. I thought is was to mine. Much of our personal growth has been a direct benifit of my service. But like any neccessary sacrifice, there is a time limit. My wife just got to that point before me. As for me, I'll be giving up something special to me. Something I was really good at. So I expect some resentment about that until I find something just as special to me that works with my marriage.

Anything that comes BEFORE your marriage will eventually come between you. And being in the military has done exactly that in your marriage. You are living proof of this.

Military life, where couples are separated, is NOT a complement to any marriage, it is a disaster. Divorce and infidelity are epidemic in military marriages.

It might feel like its a sacrifice to quit the military, but the payoff will be immense. It is like quitting smoking, it feels bad at first, but replacing it with great health makes up for those feelings.