Well, if your ADs are working and you don't have anger control issues, why are you angry and depressed?

That's not entirely fair. I do feel like taking care of her. Just this morning I stood in the freezing rain scraping ice off her car. I did it because it felt like abuse NOT TO. I didn't "educate" her that she should have warmed up her car earlier like the old MM would have done. But when it comes to intimate needs, I'm not feeling it right now.

I hope she can see that she created a new person (me) with her serial cheating and he's trying to figure this crap out...how to live in his new skin.

Separate issue...I'm Navy, but I hear your analogy. And if a sailor's behavior is not conducive to good order of the unit, it's entirely possible that the way he is treated would be considered "abuse" ...to him. But I can't say I've ever been accused by my subordinates as being abusive or unfair.

I'm not angry. And I'm depressed because my entire life was turned upside down. It's a natural reaction.

You know you're arguing with the rescue squad, right? The people who are here to help you, and basically all you are doing is debating with them. I don't see what you're going to gain from that.

You're engaging in a lot of behaviors that are counterproductive for recovery.

Your feelings don't have to determine your behaviors. I can already see you are making a lot of progress in holding your tongue when you think disrespectful thoughts. Eventually it is possible to completely refrain from disrespectful judgments or angry outbursts (several of your behaviors qualify as these) no matter how you feel.

And I know that you may not want to recover, at this moment in time, but there is nothing to be gained from tearing down your progress. And your feelings and desires seem to shift pretty frequently.

So, as an example of how your feelings don't have to determine your behavior:

Feeling: depressed and not wanting to recover marriage
One possible behavior you can choose: griping about how your wife does whatever the hell she wants. Abusive and counterproductive.
Another possible behavior you can choose: keeping quiet until you feel better.
Another possible behavior you can choose: finding something fun to do by yourself

If you're building a tower, and sometimes you don't feel like building on it today, there's no need to tear it down. Just leave it alone for awhile.

It is soooo instinctive to tear it down. Ever built a Lego tower with your kids? Guess what happens when something doesn't go just right for them.

MM - I had to take meds, too. They don't solve the problem, they just make you feel normal enough to work the problem rationally. I know the trail you are on, because I was there myself. I know how hard it is to get over this hill. I also know how much better it is on the other side. Please stay the course. We really want you to survive this. But you are going to have to stay on the trail. Don't argue with us about why the trail goes this way or that, or why the hill is so steep, or why you should even bother when you would rather just sit down on the ground. We are trying to help you.

You wrote this earlier and then wrote that you are caring for WW. As many posts have said, feelings will follow the actions. First, stop hurting each other. Your caustic comments are love busters. Stop making them.

How long will your travel be?

AM

Wise words.

Alright, I'll play this game.

According to Dr. Harley (correct if I'm wrong)..If resentment exists, the two causes are:

1. BS has a secondary gain. Possible. Most people consider me reasonable, but I'll accept this possibility.

2. Recovery is NOT complete...let's see. I LOVE to argue, so let's play. I realize a FWW will always have an elevated position over the BH on MB, but maybe...big maybe...you don't know what you think you know:

Direct from Prisca's comments to FWW (where she tells her to RUN FOR THE HILLS):

Just Compensation IS:

1. Ending all contact with the affair partner for life
Examples: NC letter, phone number changed, email changed ...

No, No, and No. Next.

2. Removing the conditions that led to the affair (Extraordinary Precautions).
Examples: Facebook shutdown, Radical Honesty (no secret second life), job change, no more nights apart ...

No, mostly, No, No. She didn't tell you all about the program she applied to that would have separated us for 3 months. Sure, I was enthusiastic about it, but it still scares me. AAANNDD, she still has OS friends on FB...dudes she knows I hate. AAANNDD she still has over a dozen "mutual friends" with POSOM 1 and 2, so I get to see their smiling faces every now and again.

3. Creating a romantic relationship using Marriage Builders concepts.
Examples: Eliminate Lovebusters, POJA, PORH, meet EN, UA time each week ...

Well...should we really be on step 3? Seems kinda premature. But since we're pushing it...No, No, Yes, Yes, Yes (as long as the time suits HER personal needs)

I'm not even going to reflect on the 16 years of CRAP I get from her folks, with her saying nary a word. Tell me again why I should let go of resentment? I keep getting confused.

MM,

she still has OS friends on FB...dudes she knows I hate.

Were any of them ever flirty with your WW? Did the OS friends have affairs of their own?

AAANNDD she still has over a dozen "mutual friends" with POSOM 1 and 2, so I get to see their smiling faces every now and again.

Are you speaking of friends on facebook or friends that visit the house? Did they know of or support the affairs?

God Bless
Gamma

Ok, well the way to present this list is:

"WW, it bothers me when ... (you still have a face book page with POSOM mutual friends, you have OS friends that I don't like). How would you feel about ... (deleting your face book account or having a joint account with me).

Ranting to WW doesn't work. It doesn't create a passionate marriage. No one falls in love with someone who is disrespectful.

Why would you be enthusiastic about a three month separation?

How long is your travel?

AM

I hate arguing. What motivates my persistence with you is my desire to see you fix your relationship with your wife. The tools are here to do it. You just need to set your mind to the solution.

The problem with resentment is that it is a bottomless pit. Nobody profits by resentment. All those issues that you complain about can be handled effectively and permanently by applying the MB principles to your marriage. Then, bye-bye resentment.

I agree with Prisca that if you don't get serious about changing your present tactics, a separation will become inevitable. So, let's get about fixing this. Take all that energy that you are putting into arguing, and use it to brainstorm on solutions. Drop the righteous indignation, because we already know that as a BS you have been wronged. It doesn't help. Solutions help. Go through that list of non compliant stuff you gave us, and propose EPs that will address the issues.

It's clear to those of us who know Dr. Harley's material that both of these are true in your case.

So, instead of loving to argue, how about you take the cotton out of your ears, put it in your mouth, and calmly learn what to do about those two things?

STEP ONE: CALM DOWN. Remember how you explained to us just a couple of days ago that when your reason finally kicks in, it kicks you and asks "WTF?" It's about time to start listening to it.


We seriously don't care about all the blamefinding. The point here is not to establish who is right or wrong. The point is for both of you to identify and eliminate the behaviors you are engaging in which are counterproductive to a good marriage. When you find one of these behaviors, you don't jump up and down and shout "AHA!" and proclaim your spouse to be wrong. Instead, you communicate factually about the problem, and solve it together.

Your wife is clearly in the wrong on several points. All of these are easily addressed. None of that changes the problem that you are abusing her and need to eliminate your selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts if you ever want to have a happy relationship. You don't get a pass on those behaviors just because she is making some mistakes, just as she does not get a pass on her affair because of your mistakes. Abuse does not justify abuse.

It's time to step up to the plate and do your part to fix your mistakes, or else shut up and leave everybody alone, especially your wife. Abuse does not justify abuse.


Write her a calm letter stating that these three things are conditions that must be met if she wants to recover your marriage.


Add these conditions to the letter, also.


Dr. Harley is very emphatic that nights apart in marriage are a bad idea, and absolutely must be avoided in a marriage that has had an affair.

So, instead of judging her for doing this, you simply calmly state in your letter that she must agree to spend no nights apart ever again, or else you will not be willing to stay married to her.


There should be no opposite sex friends at all. Again, list this requirement in your letter.


These mutual friends have to go, too.

And any friends she knows you hate. All friendships must be friendships that you are both enthusiastic about.

Instead of standing still griping and ranting about these problems, move forward calmly and respectfully to a place where these problems don't exist because she either met the conditions of your letter or because you moved on without her.

But leave the disrespectful judgments out of it. It simply makes you look weak and unattractive.


How long have you been here learning this stuff? How long have you had the book Surviving an Affair? Have you actually read it? Cover to cover?

All of the above should have happened a long time ago. It sounds like you either didn't know these things had to happen (you should have been learning), or didn't know how to get them to happen other than to use disrespectful judgments. Which, again, don't get you what you want - they just make you look powerless, weak, ineffective, and unattractive.

As for UA time meeting her personal needs - it's supposed to. You won't recover your marriage unless your Giver, your Taker, her Giver, and her Taker are all satisfied. If you try to leave out her Taker, you will not recover your marriage.


You guys shouldn't continue to see her folks if they are disrespectful to you. We had to cut my parents out of our lives for about two years because they were so disrespectful. They chose to become much nicer, and we are now happy and enthusiastic about including them in our lives because of the change.

Again, instead of ranting about the crap, calmly and quietly and respectfully cease to put up with the crap. One of the biggest problems in your marriage is the belief in putting up with crap. Your marriage won't recover if your Taker is left out of the equation. Happy marriages do NOT involve sacrifice. If sacrifice is introduced for either one of you, even if it's as a response to an affair, you will not have a happy marriage.


Must be - YOU SHOULD NOT LET GO OF RESENTMENT. I'm not sure where that idea came from. I think a few people posted that to me a couple of years ago, and it's completely wrong and completely contradictory to what Dr. Harley says.

You should stop engaging in selfish demands, disrespectful judgments, and angry outbursts. Feeling resentful does not mean you have to do these things. If you want to recover your marriage, you are going to have to quit letting your feelings guide your actions. Right now, your actions are making it impossible to ever have a marriage that will heal your resentment.

You told us back in August that the NC had been sent.

You were also told, repeatedly, to get rid of Facebook. You never responded.

All of these can be handled without abuse on your part.

What exactly are you doing to complete this step? She cannot do it without you. What are you doing about your lovebusters? What are you doing about POJA, PORH, EN, UA?

While we're on the subject, she shouldn't be meeting your EN at all at this point. Dr. Harley tells women to not meet their husbands EN when angry outbursts are present (which you have plenty of, and nothing will get better for you until you stop denying it and start solving the problem).

I would be enthusiastic because even though I'm very proud of her, she's never been 100% satisfied with her career. The separation would go a long way to fix that. She would have something to "show off" instead of me always being the "belle of the ball".

The trip is only one night. One miserable night. Lots of flight delays and I forgot to pack three very important things.

So much to respond to and so little time. At the risk of sounding argumentative I'll address Facebook:

1. Most wayward should get rid of it because it can refuel the affair, or start a new one. I wasn't concerned with this aspect. I'm still not.

2. What I did not realize is that it is a resentment machine. 6 times now I've had to ask her to delete friends. I told her I wasn't doing it anymore. Even when she told Dr. H THE only OS friends were immediate family, that was not true. And now she still has OS friends. Just because she claims they are openly gay doesn't help when one of this gay dudes was her first kiss. When I'm happy none of them bothered me but when I'm not, they all do.

Really, a social network site shouldn't and needn't be the cause of this much discussion. It's really not difficult; just ban or block the whole thing and have done with it.

Many people live without Facebook. I live with without Facebook. Why is this even being discussed at this stage?

It's not just waywards that get rid of Facebook. Both marriage partners observe all EPs.

The thing about following the MB plan is that a lot of the thinking has already been done for you. Common EPs exist because these problems are common. Take the EP that you should never be separated overnight. This is an extremely important EP. None of us are exempt. If you listened to the radio links I sent you several weeks ago, you will hear how my wife and I struggled with this one. We have not been separated overnight, even though the affair was a daytime workplace affair. We don't have Facebook accounts, even though the affair had nothing to do with Facebook. We observe these EPs because they make our marriage more affair-proof.

Your marriage is a marriage in crisis. You really can't afford the luxury of questioning everything right now. You need to concentrate on implementing solutions. Follow the common EPs. Don't separate overnight. Don't engage in social media. Don't have opposite-sex friendships. These are basic safety rules.

Good grief, just delete facebook. Its not worth it. You can easily stay in touch with family via email.