Melody, you're right. If we don't believe in MB, then we should say so to save people who are willing to serve from wasting their time. I totally agree with the point of view.

I am not here to argue, and have appreciated the support since I first wrote. No doubt MB has worked for many couples (evidence don't lie!). I came here to learn and to grow, just as I always have with my life. I made a bad choice to have an affair part of which was because I stopped doing those things.

I am here to listen to people who have been successful. In fact, I am reading everything I can from people who have recovered from affairs successfully. Surprised by Love just so happened to be one of those stories. Not the MB way, no. I wasn't saying their way was right (in fact, I see many things I don't agree with), just that I was reading. And I'm sorry if you feel I am veering off recovery with this distraction. I really felt that reading the book has helped me lift the fog I have been in. But that is just me.

I feel we have done the steps towards recovery (NC letter, EP set, exposure, and UA time). But yes, probably could be doing more (monitoring my phone, snoop, etc). I'm on MB to learn. And if I can only stay without learning from other sources that have proven to be successful too, then I understand. I will continue to read stories, learn from you guys, and admire the courage each of you have shown on saving your marriage.

Hi, rh,

Be aware that we jump on the distractions of other books and programs pretty quickly here - because we've seen a million disasters. Having put this program to work in our own marriages, and helped many others, we've come around to the conclusion that Dr. Harley is really right to warn that the path to recovery is narrow.

Dr. Harley's program came from extensively studying successful couples, developing a scientific test to see which couples really were in love, and analyzing the common trends and eliminating the anecdotal evidence ("We've been so successful because she has a glass of wine every night and he whistles while he works") to find out what really causes the feeling of romantic love that is key to a successful marriage. So if any of those points is skipped or altered, it's usually likely to result in disaster.

We're out here sounding the warnings when we see new couples looking at other stuff, because we can usually see problems looming that we have seen before. Usually we can predict what would go wrong with a particular approach: for example, the wife who let her husband move back in with her stood a good chance of developing post traumatic stress disorder (we have at least one successfully recovered marriage around here where that is the case).

Here's a couple of great reads on what's different here:
How Dr. Harley Learned to Save Marriages
Romantic Love: Is It A Realistic Goal For Marriage Therapy?

I won't say that there aren't some people who smoke nine packs a day and never get lung cancer and live to be 99. But they are the exception rather than the rule, and I'll cheerfully warn my friends when they do things that are risky and dramatically affect their odds.

Just a side question since you just read the book. Did Jay ever say anything about a first wife? I read on his blog that he had a son from a previous relationship in Orlando but I never caught how that son came about. I've read many similar stories and blogs so this isn't me just picking on what you are reading because MB is the best....I just have a suspicion that this couple is an affair marriage themselves. That they are the romantic story (not) of a Dr. divorcing his first wife to marry a former beauty contestant kind of deal that they then try to parley into a celebration of recovery when inevitably the affair marriage falls apart. I have no idea if that is true but wonder if the book revealed anything about a first wife.

Aren't we a fun bunch?

Thanks Markos - totally makes sense! You should be protective of MB as it has been proven time and time again that it works! And the warnings are much appreciated. Thanks for the links, I have read them before and read them again Can you imagine if romantic love does not last in a marriage?! I cannot be in more agreement that we create this love. I feel like Dr. Harley provided us with more tools in our box to make sure we don't ever forget to continue to create this love for each other.

MW - no, he does not. A very brief mention of the first marriage in the book. I actually suspect the same - that it might be an affairage of their own. Having said that, towards the end of the book, the steps he outlined on affair recovery is pretty similar to MB (NC letter - although no template like the one here, EPs, and UA). They did not cover exposure.

Their story definitely is not in alignment to the actions they outline. But I was drawn to the story itself because their lives mirror a bit like ours. We are in the industry and we are here anyway. We got lazy and missed the mark by A LOT. These are not things we didn't already know - these are things we practiced and preached. No excuse - laziness is what got us here.

What got me out of the fog though, is the story about the children.

In my head, I knew I hurt our family A LOT. But my emotions had not caught up to my head until I read the book. So it might seem like a distraction, but for me, it sped up the withdraw process (there is nothing worse than woe is me when I was the one who hurt others). I finally understood on both an intellectual and emotional level what every one meant when they said affairs aren't real. They are an illusion. Sure, I probably would've gotten there on my own eventually too, just nice to have some help along the way

Thanks for challenging us along the way. While I was upset earlier in the day, I think this has been quite a learning experience. And I'm beginning to remember whey I love this journey so much!

MW - wait. Haha, I was so wrapped up in the concepts of recovery I obviously forgot about the story in the beginning. No, they were not a marriage resulting in an affair. He was already divorced and was set up on a blind date by one of his clients. But he did not detail the reason for the first divorce. Simply he married the first wife out of college and was the right thing to do at the time.

Could this have been a lie? Maybe. But I do know the person who wrote the foreword of the book has an extremely amazing reputation in the personal development industry and I trust that she would not have written it had she not felt that this couple was within integrity of what they wrote.

Sorry, a bit of a rant - just thought I should clarify. It's late here, I'm tired!

LWFH - yes, you are absolutely right in all of those points. The end of the book that outlines what you need to do is a complete contrast of how they handled their marriage/divorce. Their concepts are quite similar to MB actually (please see my response above). I think what they illustrated in their story is what not to do.

I think some people read other resources to find a loophole so they can do what they don't want to do (or don't do what they know they are supposed to do), and that is so dangerous. So I understand the warnings. Thank you for caring enough to let us know why you guys feel the way you do.

I noticed that you mentioned your work in the personal development industry as if it relates to the work of developing marriages. From my perspective, it doesn't. I think the two "industries" are actually at odds in some ways. For example, one promotes individual growth, and the other promotes growth as a couple. (Emphasizing individual growth can actually cause spouses to grow apart, making them more vulnerable to extramarital affairs.)

I noticed that your husband posted that you and he are working on growing as individuals:

Again, becoming happy as an individual may be a goal of personal development, but it isn't necessarily a goal of marital development. In fact, in the MB program, "independent behavior" is included in the "lovebusters" which can hinder couples from making win/win decisions and developing more integrated lives. MB encourages spouses to become interdependent rather than independent.

Unless the things you "practiced and preached" were how to have appropriate boundaries with people outside the marriage, those things may have been irrelevant to your current predicament. (That's why they did not prevent your affair, and why they will not help you recover from it.)

I was concerned that you referred to your affair as a "bad choice," as if committing adultery was simply an incident of poor judgment. I was also concerned that you wrote:

Your use of plural pronouns implies shared blame for your affair. From my perspective, your affair was 100% your responsibility. (Since you gave your husband no choice in the matter, you can't share the blame with him.)

Moreover, I would argue that your extramarital affair was not the result of laziness; it was the result of poor boundaries with people outside the marriage. You didn't have an affair because you were "lazy" and forgot to "learn and grow"; you had an affair because you had poor boundaries and allowed someone other than your husband to make "love bank deposits" by meeting your emotional needs.

To me, recovering from an affair is not an enjoyable journey in personal growth; it is one of the most painful experiences a couple can endure. I feel like you are taking an approach that would be endorsed in your industry, and hitting a brick wall because the underlying premise of MB is marital development, not personal development. It almost seems like we are speaking two different languages.

I'd like to issue a caution against the "individually happy" philosophy. Dr. Harley warns against this - this tends to lead to the belief that people should learn to not get their fulfillment in marriage - that they should try to learn to be happy without their emotional needs being met.

That just won't work. One of the only things that is actually statistically correlated with a higher level of happiness is a fulfilling marriage. i.e., emotional needs are being met.

Emotional needs not being met is one of the preconditions for many (not all) affairs. And if couples are living by the "find your happiness in yourself instead of your marriage" philosophy, they typically start finding happiness in friends and other relationships - which can frequently lead to an affair. (Note that taking extraordinary precautions to prevent an affair will be effective whether your emotional needs are being met or not. But recovery is about more than just preventing another affair. Successful marriage is more than just "well, we never cheated (again).")

Really good post Jessica. Lots to think about. That "individually happy" line jumped out to me as well.

You've made it clear that you have no intention of following the guidelines in Surviving an Affair.
I suspect you'll pick and choose which ones to follow.
Unfortunately, according to Dr Harley, it wont work when you do that.

Good luck with your custom tailored recovery plan

A lot of programs love to overthink this issue.

Rainheaven, if an old boyfriend messaged me of Facebook, do you know what my response would be?

I am married, best of luck in life. Delete. Whatever. No chatting.

Why?

Because it is one of the basic principles I follow - no male friends, only friendly banter with friend's husbands, in their wife's presence at social gatherings. That's it.

You really CAN'T have a heterosexual affair under these conditions, can you?

It really is that simple, although programs toting self-searching journeys might want to make it more complicated.

Do you know how to avoid drinking? Don't go where booze is present.

Don't want to have an affair? Don't have conversations alone with men where they can meet your needs.

With two little kids and proper UA time, you probably wouldn't have had time to talk with him alone anyways. Do you see how this all falls into line?

Thanks. I was trying to express the MB concept that married people shouldn't view the pursuit of happiness as an individual journey; rather, they should view it as a joint venture. I appreciate Markos adding clarification.

Guys! I read a book that's not MB related. That's all. A waste of time to you? Maybe. I never stopped putting MB practice into place.

I'm almost afraid to write anything more!

And yes Jessica - we did preach about boundaries and such. We were in the industry for couples - we worked with people on improving relationships. We preached boundaries and making each other happy. We preached UA time and meeting each other's needs. I did not practice what we preached.

And yes, I'm 100% responsible, I don't think I ever said it wasn't. (Being lazy was part of it, but it was me, myself, and I) And if making a bad choice means an accident, then I agree with you, it was no accident. But a bad choice means I CHOSE to cheat. And it was my responsibility. Sorry, no accident about it.

You guys are amazing. And I know you are the way you are because you care. You care to not want one more person go through this the hard way or to see another marriage fail. And I really do appreciate that.

I agree marriage is a joint venture.

Okie dokie. I'm out. Thank you again.

I don't know why - we'll just let you know if we see you going down paths that we have seen led to disaster before. And we have seen lots of people follow the "read every marriage/affair book I can get my hands on" approach. Unfortunately it usually leads to distraction from the work that really needs to be done. It's worse than a waste of time, because really in affair recovery, you don't have time to waste. If the right things are not done swiftly, divorce is usually the result, usually with an enormous amount of unhappiness on both sides.

It's not mean to tell you that.

Exactly.
People are giving you free advice based on personal experience and years of study. No one's being mean to you.
Markos and I wasted so many years reading every marriage book out there. How I wish we had those years back.

As one FWW to another, rain, you still sound foggy.

I suggest instead of shooting at those whose help you sought by coming here, you open your ears and listen. I have found that the ones who ruffled my feathers the most were usually the ones I needed to listen to the closest.

Yesterday, it was:

Today, it is:

Wow. Just wow.

LOL, I meant, okie dokie - I'm out for right now. I have to work. I didn't mean I'm out and I'm never coming back to learn and grow!

I need to stop writing! Wow. Just Wow. That's right! I can't even write something without it being analyzed to death!

Also, I agree that you guys are not being mean when giving us advice you know works, and warning us about what you've seen that doesn't work. I don't think I've ever discounted that. In fact, I KNOW you guys say what you say because you care. I thought I said that, maybe I didn't.

I read the book, it's too late. I couldn't take it back even if I wanted to.

I'm out!

Think of it this way...having your words analyzed by a BS is a gift. It gives you the opportunity to see how your words are received by a BS and their own infidelity filter.

Sometimes the message received is not the message intended and that knowledge is something that can help you.

If you go back and read my post, you'll see that I stated you implied shared responsibility by using plural pronouns:


Obviously, "we" referred to both yourself and your husband.

There was no need to lash out or claim that you were being "analyzed to death" when you were simply being asked to consider a different perspective. Please understand that people here genuinely want to help you.

Is this why you said "Wow. Just Wow." when I said I was out? Because you genuinely wanted to help with that comment?

If it was, then I apologize for saying I was being analyzed to death for writing I'm out. I missed the helpful part of that comment.