Well I would caution you that hope is not a plan. Hope is all very well, but your Plan is Plan A.

I don't think I would encourage HNHN. Dr H actively discourages it with waywards because they misinterpret it so often. They often use a lack of needs to justify their A. The book warns of A's as a result of needs not being met but the book is not meant for waywards to use for justification.

Plan A is carrot and stick, so

Carrot - If she must read it, I'd get her to list her ENs, for Plan A purposes. You could also hold interesting conversations on the topic or listen affectionately to her justifications/excuses. Don't accept her reasoning though, just say that's all over and wont feature in your new marriage.

Stick - I'd continue to make it clear you expect her to ultimately follow the plan in SAA. Anything less cuts no ice with you.

You said your wife used to spend 12 hours a day on Facebook, and now she has cut back to only 5 mins per day. First off, I don't believe she is only on it for 5 mins per day. But even if that were true, it would suggest she has broken her addiction/obsession to Facebook, and prove that she values spending 5 mins per day on Facebook more than she values you. Regardless, it is just a matter of time before her FB use becomes excessive again, and highly likely she'll be using it to conduct Facebook affair #3.

She is Lucy and you are Charlie Brown. We are all watching from the bleachers, yelling "Stop trying to kick the football! She is going to yank it away!" But you refuse to listen.

Have you emailed Dr. Harley regarding your current situation?

I have emailed Dr. Harley about my situation, received a call from Mrs. Harley today but was unable to answer. Will be talking to her tomorrow morning.

Just to reiterate where I am- I am snooping more now than I did when she was in the affair, have spy program with keylogger, screen shots, etc. on computer and phone. I know where she is, who she's talking to, what she's doing 24 hours a day. When I say she is on facebook maybe 5 minutes a day, that is because I know that to be true, not because she told me so. I know the plan is SAA is the ONLY way to make sure our marriage is strong and affair proof and I realize that even one part of the program not being followed means my marriage is over.

I have communicated all of this to my wife, and continue to remind her of this every few days. She does not agree that 100% of the plan is necessary. She agrees with honesty, open communication, accountability 24/7. She doesn't agree with the rest 100% yet, I am trying to work up to that.

In the meantime, she thinks we are doing great, is in love with me again and sees us being together forever with no more problems. She's naive. She takes full responsibility for the affair, is open about what happened but doesn't understand why it happened. She thinks there is something inherently wrong with her and the way to fix it is through counseling. Of course, she cut off all contact with the OM and we are moving to make sure there's no accidental(or intentional) contact with him.

I'm not Charlie Brown. I understand what has to happen. I can't force her to accept the truth, she is too stubborn. I have to approach this differently than by force. From what some have posted, I'm not the first to have to take this route and, with patience and perseverence, this way works so long as we end up working the plan in SAA completely.

That's where I'm trying to get to.

You say a lot of good things so far as Plan A goes, however the mention of a counsellor gives me the heebie jeebies. A counsellor will have her doing back flip navel gazing so as to run up a long term bill. Hopefully she will agree to speak to the Harleys.

I realise you know that it won't help, and that applying HNHN to an A wont help. I know you also understand that FB has to go.
But my point is that these things are not benign things to be endured until she 'gets it'. They will actively hurt you and you should not act as though it is acceptable.

You are in a good position to make sure she adheres to PoJA and EPs so I cannot understnad why you dont make sure you stand your ground.

Five minutes of supervised Facebook isnt benign and you know it. Even if it were not trigger city for her A, or the gateway for affair number three, it still must be a huge betrayal trigger for you. Every time she goes on it it must be a renewed slap in the face. Look at your thread title for crying out loud.

You said that she claims to only use Facebook for the purpose of staying in touch with close family and friends. Correct? And you have exposed both of her affairs to those people. Correct? I'm wondering if you could write a "follow-up" exposure letter, reminding those people that your wife has used Facebook to conduct 2 different extramarital affairs, and despite your requests that she close her Facebook account, she continues logging into Facebook on a daily basis.

I would explain that she has cut back her Facebook time dramatically, however, she has proven repeatedly that she cannot use it in moderation for any length of time. Let them know that she used to be so addicted/obsessed with Facebook that she would use it throughout the entire day (12 hours), so your children were often neglected until you came home from work. Once these people understand that your wife's use of Facebook has nearly destroyed your family--and her continued use of it is a daily reminder of the most painful experiences you've ever endured--you may not even have to ask them to "unfriend" her. But I would ask them to do exactly that. She won't get much out of her Facebook account if she has no Facebook friends.

In your exposure letters, you asked these people to support your marriage. This is a specific request for that same purpose. When she finds out you told everyone about her cruel/reckless insistence on keeping her Facebook account active, as well as her history of addiction to/obsession with that website, she may be too embarrassed to log back on.

Let us know when you will be on the show.

jessicaclaire- I see where you're going with that and it might serve it's purpose, or it might not. When I exposed via FB, I got the desired result- the affair ended. Also, our friends were supportive of ending the affair and saving our marriage but the public exposure was viewed by most as a vindictive move on my part, so I would be hesitant to make that kind of move right now.

I will be a caller on the show this coming monday. My wife knows about it but won't be participating.

It is not vindictive.

**edit**

The fact she can FB but can't be on the show to help your marriage speaks volumes.

Quick update on my world-

Joyce rescheduled with me for thursday, dec 26th, so if you were waiting to hear what Dr Harley says I need to do, you'll have to wait a couple more days.

In the meantime, the wife and I have made some small progress, and I've learned a little more about her mindset.

First, she is no longer going to counseling on her own. We cancelled the individual sessions and now have joint sessions scheduled. The counselor is familiar with the MB program, so I will be able to get somewhere, I think. Also, I got the wife to talk about what she wants out of our marriage. She wants exactly what the MB program helps build and acknowledges we need help to get there. She is ready to start reading Dr Harley's books but I am stalling that until after I get to talk to him.

On to her mindset- sunday night, a conversation about moving and getting a fresh start turned in to a conversation about where we stood on rebuilding our marriage. In that conversation, she told me she feels like she's walking on eggshells, being watched, etc. Of course, she is being watched but it's not because I think she's still talking to the OM. I know that is done, he is back with his wife, she is back with me and, for now, she knows I'm hurting every day and wants it to stop. She broke down crying(which she hates to do) about how she's over it, hates that it happened and wants me to be over it. She said that she only thinks about it when I bring it up. She also said that she doesn't know why or how it happened, that it just happened.

This made me think. If I were in her shoes, hurt, confused, feeling worthless, with no understanding of why I allowed something like this to happen, how would I feel?

I would want it to go away too, pretend like it didn't happen.

I left it alone for the rest of the night, and started a conversation monday afternoon that led to the change in her counseling. She understands that I'm not going to let it just go away, we are going to have to work through it together and there will be more changes in our lives to keep an affair from being a possibility. She still doesn't understand what those changes HAVE to be or why, I'm planning on Dr Harley guiding me on how to bring her to see those changes. The important part I took away from our conversations this weekend is that she is becoming willing to see my side of things, willing to make decisions with my perspective in mind.

Now a question- I've been struggling with being the "back up plan." Meaning, if I hadn't exposed the affair, there's a good chance she would have left me for the OM. I found an email from two days before exposure where she was trying to decide whether to leave me for him or cut it off with him for me. It was an interesting read because I didn't realize she had doubts about leaving. I thought she had committed to leaving me as soon as the OM was ready but her questions to him showed me that they both had doubts about leaving their respective spouses for each other. The email was never sent, she saved it as a draft and I exposed two days later and the affair blew up but I can't help but wonder if she would have decided to end it and stay or leave.

My hurt thinking says she would have left but exposure stopped that plan and she decided to stay because it was easier than going. I've brought that question up a few times and she has always answered the same- she has other places to go, if she wanted to leave, she would have left. She says she is right where she wants to be.

I know she has other places to go, and I know she is taking more care with me and trying to be closer to me, more open with me and more affectionate with me than she has been in years but I still have the doubts about being her first choice.

How have ya'll coped with this feeling?

Emotionally there's no way for this not to suck. So stick to logic. In the light of day - you were the clear winner. He only made sense in the deep dankest of dungeons where there is no clear vision.

Plus you are her hero. You exposed and saved her from an affairage.

Cars,
If she is willing go through the program and do just compensation, you will worry less and less about the choices she was considering. The fact is your marriage was not working, which in no way excuses her affair, but if she gets on board with the MB program, and you both carry out its principles all the way, your marriage will recover and be better than ever. And if that happens I guarantee you that she will be ecstatic that she made the choice to stay with you. So will she.

Great job contacting the Harley's. They will tell her to lose Facebook, I'm sure. And when they do, it will be interesting to see how your wife responds. I am praying she passes the test.

Your wife is a little foggy still. Her concern about "walking on eggshells" is a selfish response. She has no clue about how much this has hurt you. Time for your wife to develop a little more empathy. She also needs to learn about EP's and radical honesty. If she can't accept these concepts and returns to her independent behavior, then a full recovery will not happen.


Good luck, friend!

Ok, talked to the Harleys today. Unfortunately, it left me with little resolved and seemingly little gained.

To sum up my view of how it went, Dr. Harley sympathizes with my conflicted situation. He said she should be willing to give up facebook and work through SAA with me. He also said she probably views romantic relationships as a recreational activity and that we are probably headed for another affair. There was some talk of her possibly still being in the "fog" and maybe she will become more empathetic as time goes on, but as of now it doesn't sound like she fully understands how much hurt she caused.

Of course, after I talked to him I talked to my wife. She showed interest in what he had to say, at first, then told me that he was all wrong about her. She claims to understand how much hurt she caused, believes we are on the right track and that we will be fine. Her plan to never cheat again is to not flirt with anyone anymore. She believes that, coupled with being open and honest and paying attention to each other is enough. She is adamant that talking about it every few days(or at all) or reading a book, working a plan for recovery is all a waste.

Guess I keep doing what I'm doing for now...

Yes, this was my takeaway too. I see more affairs in your future.

c&k, I just listened to your discussion and basically Dr. Harley said to focus only on the book SAA and implementing EPs. He told you if she won't do those things, that this is headed to another affair and that your marriage will really be over when that happens.

When I heard that, it seemed to me that you have nothing to lose in DEMANDING that she adhere to EPs, because your marriage is a goner anyway. You can die the long, slow way and just wait for another affair or push her NOW and get out while you can.

Did I see somewhere that you are in Texas? Did you know that you can use adultery to gain an advantage in divorce in Texas? Since her affair is fresh, you do have that advantage.

If I were in your shoes, I would DEMAND that she adhere to EP's or prepare to be served with a divorce. since you are headed to divorce anyway, why not shorten the process and avoid the inevitable 3rd affair?

Cars,
Dr. Harley has confirmed what we have been saying: your wife is not willing take the extraordinary precautions that will make you safe. Her refusal to get on board with the program is really her saying, "I'm going to do the same thing all over again and expect different results." But her history of putting down barriers around other men online is the only hard data you have to go by.

Well, it is not too late to demand that she accept the EP's you have in place. When my wife and I made our recovery, at first she was lax in taking the EP's I put in place. She didn't take them seriously. When I saw that she wasn't, I called it off. She saw that I was firm and serious, and so she got on board realizing that skipping the EP's weren't worth losing the marriage over. Why can't you set these same expectations for your wife. They are fair and reasonable, and they are the conditions that you have the right to set to ensure your safety after she has violated the marital covenant.

By the way, I got rid of Facebook, and it wasn't even part of the problem. But we both saw that it can lead to problems so I took it out of my life as part of the EP package deal. And guess what. There IS life after Facebook. You should stand firm on this now, or you will regret it later. Otherwise you are setting yourself up for a false recovery, which will be very painful. Why put yourself through it again? It is your choice: take the easy way and pay in the future, or take the hard way now and spare yourself bigger grief later.

So she's still not willing to put EPs in place and to protect you and your marriage?

If I understand correctly, she believes that the only necessary EPs are for her to (1) try not to flirt with other men, and (2) delete a bunch of male Facebook contacts.

I believe she thinks those 2 things should count as her EPs, and carsandkidz is afraid she'll leave if he insists on a legitimate list of EPs.

I listened to the radio show as well.

I think Dr Harley would encourage you to listen to someone like me...who spent years working on a false recovery with a spouse who was not on-board.

Let me tell you, if you think the first two affairs hurt, that is nothing compared to the pain and humiliation you will feel when she does this to you again...after you have been knocking yourself out fighting for a marriage while she continues on doing what she pleases at your expense.

You realize that a spouse that is unwilling to implement a simple EP to ease your concerns after having TWO AFFAIRS is not going to follow POJA or work very hard to meet your needs or avoid lovebusters, right? She is just going to sit by and watch you do all the work and keep doing what is in HER best interests.

Ask me how I know.

At least your WW is being very upfront with you about what she is not willing to do . Had my WxH had been so honest, I would not have wasted three years of my life trying to save a marriage that was not worth saving....living with a dark cloud over my head wondering if he was going to hurt me again. I think Melody has said that hanging onto a wayward is like hanging on to a corpse. What an accurate description.

At least I can say that I was tricked. Your WW is telling you very clearly what your future holds