I doubt she'd care. I certainly didn't care if markos chatted up women while I was addicted to my FB affair. She'll use this as a "No, of course I don't have a problem with that, so you shouldn't either" argument. Don't go there.

These things are Disrespectful Judgements, and should be avoided.

Stick with "This bothers me" and "I need this to recover." Anything else, and you're risking Disrespectful Judgements and arguments.

Good perspective Prisca.

Your right.. She would likey respond like that. Almost like a spoilt teenager.

I only said those things as suggestions because they had a profound impact on my wife when she was addicted to guys on MSN messenger. My wife felt it was not ok for me to talk to women but it was ok for her to talk to men. So when I asked her to put herself in my shoes a light bulb went on in her head and things began to change for the positive. Slowly mind you.. But it was a start in the right direction.

Anyhow.. Listen to the vets. My situation and use of MB didn't happen like people hope it does. It took a long time (over a year actually) of living my side of MB with many setbacks due to her lack of participation or want to follow MB. As each MB rule came to a head in my wifes favor she shifted gears into the MB logic.

MNG

Don't beat yourself up man. You had five days together and felt she was trying to reconnect. That's a good thing. And applying percentages to UA time "focus" is bad juju. It's expected that all time together does not always equal UA time. Heck, 80% sounds pretty good to me. You have a gift...a willing WW. It ain't perfect but it could be a whole lot worse.

tried the "put yourself in my shoes" speech in regards to FB. She said I was just being paranoid, that if she was going to cheat again, it would happen FB or no FB.(of course, said it would never happen again)

Going to keep on with plan A for now, keep mentioning how her being on FB is hurtful.

Also going to keep reading his needs, her needs in front of her. I've talked about it enough that she knows the basics. Will keep the changes I've made to meet her needs and create a safe home environment for her in place.

A question I wanted to ask-

We are moving, probably the beginning of January. We are buying a larger, more expensive house. This was part of our original plan together and carrying it out I think will help her mindset as well as get us away from the OM, which we both want.

We agreed to a budget to afford the new house that cancels internet access, both at home and on our phones. She believes this is solely to afford the house, I know this is also to get her off facebook. Our new budget also means we will be spending lots of time together in our new house with nothing to distract us(UA time). The budget restrictions are genuinely necessary for the first six months, so it's not deceptive in that regard but I'm wondering if I need to bring to light the secondary benefits I'm getting out of the move to continue to be open and honest with the wife.

This situation demonstrates why you are at affair #2 and are headed to affair #3. It is because you are a conflict avoider. As long as you choose to avoid conflict INSTEAD OF RECOVERING YOUR MARRIAGE, affairs will be your lot in life. Welcome to your future.

See, you have no plan of recovery. And having no plan is a plan to fail.

Staying off facebook is absolutely necessary to prevent another affair. It is an extraordinary precaution that should have been discussed with your wife years ago. Beating around the bush and avoiding conflict are not strategies for recovery of a marriage.

Your wife agreed to cancel the internet in order to get in the house because she knows you will never have the balls to cancel the internet. If you won't cancel it over 2 affairs, nothing will bring you to cancel it.

Facebook is an absolute poison.
My ex wife had her affair on facebook.
I have an account, all family members and mostly so my parents can see pics of the kids.
But when adultery has been involved it makes no sense to have facebook account.
I would demand the account is deleted. In cases of adultery you have that right to make demands

If Facebook/internet were one of the conditions that allowed her to have her affair then it must be closed.

EPs need to be in place. An EP is; "change all conditions that allowed the affair".

Cars, Conflict avoidance will continue to dog your steps and discolour the marriage until you learn how to tackle it.

If you can't tell a two-time FB cheat that the FB party is over - how on earth are you going to stand up for yourself in the numerous PoJA conflicts that arise every day? Learn how to say NO now, when you have more right than ever to make yourself heard.

Party invitation that robs UA time and you're not enthusiastic? Say no. Internet access for a serial internet cheat? Say hell no.

Practice in the mirror. No is a very easy word and is not disrespectful!

I appreciate she is not on board with recovery and you are Plan A'ing her. I do get that and it is most certainly not unusual. But at no time should Plan A ever resemble Plan Doormat. Plan A involves showing her a reasonable and loving spouse who won't take any nonsense. No reasonable and loving spouse would keep a line open between his precious wife and multiple anonymous online affair partners. Not just allow, but pay for it? Craziness.

Plus, women don't respect a man they can walk over. Handle this.

Just cancel it and let her shout.

Your wife seems to expect unconditional love (something Dr. Harley warns against), and she does not feel compelled to meet your needs or protect your feelings. Your "giver" is dominating your behavior, and her "taker" is dominating hers. Dr. Harley explains that that sort of arrangement is unsustainable because your "taker" will eventually get fed up with it. Moreover, if you allow your wife to keep making these "lovebank withdrawals," your account will eventually become so depleted that you will fall out of love with her. Then, the last thread that was holding your relationship together will be broken.

EPs are not negotiable, and since she has had 2 affairs that began via Facebook, deleting Facebook should be at the top of your EP list. She doesn't get to veto that EP, and she doesn't get to delay it until you move. Her attitude is profoundly childish and selfish. If she continues expecting you to sacrifice so she can continue doing whatever she wants--regardless of how much it upsets you--then she is not a safe person for you to be married to. You are basically letting the drunk drive the car that you and your children are riding in. It is just a matter of time before she crashes it again. Don't you think it's about time that you take the wheel?

* Although I was speaking figuratively above, I'm also wondering if you ever took action to protect your kids from her driving drunk with them in the car. You cannot simply trust her to keep her promise not to do that anymore. I hope it doesn't take a tragedy to make you realize that you cannot afford to continue enabling her.

The abusive drinking is over. The partying all night every weekend is over. She is making amends for her actions over the past few months, both to me and to our kids. We had another discussion about facebook last night and she actually listened to what I was saying about facebook and about protecting our marriage. She also opened up more to me about why she is defensive toward me, explaining that she has a guilty conscious. She feels like she's being watched, knows it's all her fault and hates herself for what she has done.

I think the fog has lifted. She's slow to process things and never wants to talk about anything, so talking about what happened and TAKING RESPONSIBILITY are huge steps.

I don't have a problem with conflict, don't have a problem telling her no. I'm so good at it, I told her no and created conflict so often I drove her away in the first place. I have to own what's mine, I'm an a hole, treated her that way for a long time. My part in making our marriage different means I have to learn to treat her with respect as an equal and respect her perspective.

On our first date, I told her I was who I was and was always going to do what I wanted, when I wanted. I stuck to that philosophy until 5 months ago. That's a lot of hurt I caused, and a lot I have to make up for to regain her trust. That also gives her a reason to keep her defenses up and not believe that what I'm saying is meant out of care.

I'm going to get her to shut off facebook. I'm going to get her in to the MB program. I'm going to continue to protect my kids. I understand that if any of this can't happen, I will be a single dad with three girls to raise and their mom will be a drunken whore forever- not judging, that's just a fact.

jessicaclaire- you're exactly right when you say my wife expects unconditional love and doesn't feel compelled to meet my needs or protect my feelings. We have talked about that a few times, very short conversations because she has a lot of guilt about it. She has no basis for how marriages are supposed to work, no one in her family ever stayed married and she is completely uneducated on the subject, so all she knows about marriage is what she saw on TV. Negotiating with her to get her to read some of Dr. Harley's books will change that, I believe. I understand that how we are right now is unsustainable, I might only last a few more weeks if she doesn't start caring for me.

Thanks again for your input. Some of my comments may make it seem like I'm not listening, but I am.

^---- great progress

Have your read this article (s) on unconditional love?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_ul.html

Keep up the good work!

You can last at least 6 months. If you start to feel depressed, get on antidepressants and contact Dr. Harley himself for support. He can often help BHs go longer in Plan A than they think they can.

Good job on bringing up Facebook. Keep doing so, respectfully, for the next 6 months you're in Plan A.

I don't think the fog has lifted yet from how she is talking. Give it more time to do so.

I too don't think the fog has lifted either. It is likely LIFTING but not lifted. Things will get clearer and clearer yet if you stay on the narrow path to recovery.

MNG

OK, you feel guilty for independent behaviour. That is a separate issue though! You don't allow hers to make up for yours. You just apologise, say you're done with all that - but that you won't accept it from her.



The carrot and stick will still work really well though. She doesnt need to be educated about relationships to respond.

All she needs is ENs creating the motivation of romantic love(carrot) and to know you won't brook any nonsense or lovebusters from her (stick). She will become more motivated and knowledgable over time.

In fact, go ahead and email him now. He can help keep you motivated down the right path.

Dr. Harley says that betrayed husbands can often tolerate Plan A longer than betrayed wives, but the length of time a betrayed spouse can stay in Plan A varies according to the particular situation and individual. If it gets to the point where you feel like you are falling out of love with her--assuming you still want to try to save your marriage--you should switch from Plan A to Plan B. The reason is because Plan B blocks contact with her, preventing her from being able to continue withdrawing "lovebank units," so your remaining feelings of love are not depleted. (For that reason, it doesn't make sense to wait until you have fallen out of love with her to switch to Plan B.)

"I don't have a problem with conflict, don't have a problem telling her no. I'm so good at it, I told her no and created conflict so often I drove her away in the first place. I have to own what's mine, I'm an a hole, treated her that way for a long time. My part in making our marriage different means I have to learn to treat her with respect as an equal and respect her perspective. "

Conflicts do not drive spouses away unless they are handled with anger or disrespect. The other side of that ugly coin is conflict avoidance, which is what we see here. You have not even told her what it will take to recover your marriage which means there will be no recovery.

Couples have conflict every day. That will never go away. But that won't matter if you end up divorced because you wouldn't even mention the most basic EP to your wife.

update after an interesting weekend.

Still no progress on giving up facebook, but there's a new ray of hope that a solid plan could be in the works- my wife is going to read HNHN this week. I know, it's not Surviving an Affair, but it's way better than what she's done so far.

I can only pray that her willingness to read the book translates to a willingness to embrace the program and start working on building our marriage the right way.

Any advice on how to encourage her as she reads the book?

My first(I'm sure misguided) thought is to explain to her how this program has already begun to save our marriage by shaping my understanding of marriage, guided me in how to meet her needs, showing her this thread. I'm guessing that's too drastic.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.