I wanted to comment on this, and apologize it has taken me a couple days to get back.

There are two kinds of freeloaders, and they are polar opposite of each other. I think sometimes this mindset gets confused, but in BRF it makes sense.

The term freeloader that Dr. Harley discusses is not something that changes. They go through life only wanting their needs met, and will put no effort into the relationship of meeting the other persons needs. It is their character, and likely a long life of bad habit building. The term Freeloader Dr. Harley discusses in BRF is a way of life. They jump from partner to partner when more is asked from them. The likelihood of getting them to change is slim. They consist of Selfishness and IB ... because its all about them.

There is also the "freeloader" who starts off dating. This person goes into the first couple of dates with their Taker in charge. They don't focus on meeting the other persons needs, instead they scope out how the person will properly meet their needs. They understand the relationship will not stay here long because it must move to renter stage in order to have a chance at building romantic love. This type of freeloader should have a "buyer" like character. In terms of MB even though they go into dating as a "freeloader" they do not consist of the same character traits unless they are truly a freeloader. Most in the dating world will move to "renter" quickly, and stay there.

Can you see the difference? Sometimes your feedback concerning what you want in a woman tells me you may fall into the first category "freeloader". It may not be something that is permanent and my thought it is likely due to some healing needed on your part. Your Taker is really on fire, and it is my experience while dating having the taker start out strong is good, but you should be able to transition towards the middle with Taker/Giver in Equilibrium. This can put you into renter within the first couple of months dating. After this POJA can start to enter the dating relationship, and then you can be a buyer while dating.

A woman will want to express her taker in the relationship relatively soon, i.e. by getting her IC and affection needs met. My question for you can you handle this? Can you date a woman and simply talk to her, her needs, her wants, her desires, her life, her failures, her kids, her hair, her clothes, her job, etc.?

I don't think that's the way Dr. Harley presents it. His whole book Buyers, Renters, Freeloaders is designed to help people move from Freeloader+Renter culture to Buyer culture.

This is made a little more clear in Defending Traditional Marriage - originally Dr. Harley found that he could not reach Renters and Freeloaders by trying to talk to them like a Buyer. He was a Buyer and could not communicate with them because he thought like a Buyer. To reach them he had to learn to think like Freeloaders and Renters. In doing so, he learned how to persuade them to try the Buyers agreement. Doing so transforms them into Buyers.

Defending Traditional Marriage is an interesting counterpoint/companion book to Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders.

As will a man's. Dr. Harley's whole approach is to integrate your Giver and your Taker and make sure that you use your intellect to ensure that both are satisfied.

The Takers are a good thing! They just shouldn't be allowed to get their way at the expense of another person.

Are you aware that Dr. Harley acknowledges himself that he was once a freeloader?

He doesn't make a distinction between two different types of freeloaders, and I don't think we need to start doing that either.
The only distinction I can think of that Dr. Harley makes is:
Freeloading while dating = good
Freeloading while married = bad

Jedi's on the right track. He's a freeloader, but he has a willingness to be more eventually. This is a good thing.

I need to clarify that I was joking when I said this.
Because obviously there is no young beauty queen with no baggage.
That was a joke like All Bundy would say.
I would like to date an attractive woman like Susie that is sane and not a drug addict or some other major issues.

Yes Home sweet home, I would be prepared to meet woman's top emotional needs.
But I would really just like to go on lots of dates, and that's kind of what Harley encouraged me to do...

I feel that I've had plenty of time to heal. Almost 2 years.
I'm ready to date.
I respect women. I try to conduct myself as a gentleman

In that case, just date, widely and diversely. It doesn't matter if every date you have fits your description of the perfect potential spouse, since it doesn't sound like you're looking for someone to settle down with immediately anyway. You may find yourself on dates with women who ultimately don't turn out to be a good match for you, but who cares? You haven't lost anything by having the experience of meeting them, other than maybe a couple of hours of your time, and you don't have to ask them out again.

Dating a wide variety of women will give you a much clearer picture of what qualities you do and do not like in a potential companion. It will also provide you with a much wider pool of candidates to choose from when you do reach the point where you want a relationship that goes beyond casual dating.

Just sayin, I have a ex BiL who married a beautiful young lady from the Phillipines, and it was great while it lasted....

So if a freeloader in marriage is bad, then what were they before marriage good? We can try and spin it however we want, but the fact is a freeloader in marriage was a freeloader in dating (and/or possibly a slight renter with very bad habits). One doesn't just wake up one day in marriage and turn into a freeloader. It is most likely learned behavior, and likely fully present while in the dating relationship. You read on here all the time ... we usually tell those dating freeloaders to run for the hills, and do not consider marriage.

I took from BFR a difference in freeloaders. I also discussed this with Dr. Harley who told me one can also be a buyer in dating. Most assume buyer is only marriage.

I agree in dating we start as freeloaders ... but most move to renters early on to demonstrate a willingness to meet the needs of the others and while lovebanks are being filled ... and some move to buyers in dating which demonstrates the proper use of POJA.

I have dated a lot of men, and many have been freeloaders. They have no desire to change (set in their ways). They have little desire to meet my needs, and feel entitled to me meeting their needs. They often come with IB, and I think they are quite selfish. When I start to press to get my needs met, they usually move on and the relationship is a no go. I usually find this out by date #3 or after several months of havng a friendship. Sometimes the freeloaders are difficult to spot, but over time their inability to demonstrate proper care usually rears its ugly head.

Yes I could marry one of them and get a freeloader in marriage, but I choose not to ... I choose run from them. I cannot see how one is a freeloader in marrige without showing great signs of this before marriage. We see these relationships on this forum extensively and in all cases they poster is usually advised to run for the hills.

Several of us women on Jedi's thread have discussed our concern with his feedback. I posed the question is he a freeloader? I don't know if he is, so I'd hope the feedback would allow him to honestly look at himself. He may not be a freeloader ... he could be a renter with just bad habits. I don't know ... but several of us have seen red flags and have provided the necessary feedback to grow.

My 2cents!!!

No, we don't. Because dating is a freeloader proposition in the first place. The freeloader doesn't own the house and is not going to make improvements, as such. The only time being a freeloader is a problem is if he STAYS that way in marriage. But you can't say "don't marry a freeloader" because people who date ARE freeloaders. Dr Harley was a freeloader; my H was a freeloader. They are now buyers.

This describe daters perfectly because they are just there to interview the candidate:


This describes married people: [hopefully!]

So you want me to date "this" and expect that "this" is going to be what? I certainly don't want to marry that...!

My definition of dating is the entire "time" up until marriage. Are we all on the same page here? Maybe my use of date is confusing people....when one dates they continue dating ... I am dating this person who is my boyfriend or girlfriend. I am going on a date with a guy I have been seeing for a couple months ... I am dating this man for four months. My definition of dating is building a romantic love ... it is my understanding a freeloader shouldn't be part of this "dating" or "courtship" except on the first couple dates, but after that they should go to renter.

How is this freeloader person you are telling me to date going to show me they can properly care for me while dating?

How am I as a dater going to be reassured that "this" freeloader you describe above is going to be good marriage material if I am expected to date that?

So date the freeloader ... did you just recommend that?

Step 1) Date
Step 2) Engage
Step 3) Marriage

And again as a dater ... how am I going to know this person can properly care for me when they are expected to not put any effort into it? When does POJA get tested? After marriage? How am I going to be reassured this "freeloader" is going to be a buyer in marriage? Where's the test?

yep! Dating is just a job interview for marriage, which is a freeloader position. They do what comes naturally. One doesn't become a BUYER until they are married. While dating, one can express that they will become a buyer when married, but a person who is dating is still a freeloader until they have bought the house.

And just consider this point: a person is not a buyer until he is married. You can't be considered a buyer if you are not even married, because you haven't made a legal commitment. Sort of like test driving a car: you haven't bought it until you have signed the papers.

I'll have BrainHurts pull my Harley radio interview, where he discusses I should be a buyer in dating and how that's good. I cannot recommend anyone to date a freeloader without any substance to prove they can not only meet needs, but successfully establish a POJA relationship.

I feel it is dangerous to recommend anyone date a freeloader and then marry them blindly without any action to back up their ability to meet needs.

I have read a lot and I do not know of anyone on this forum who has ever recommended marrying someone who doesn't have the habit of showing proper care, which not only includeds EN meeting but also the ability to resolve conflict.

It is my understanding by reading BFR and talking to Dr. Harley one should demonstrate action of good marriage building habits before you marry them.

I am a dater and I run from freeloaders because I don't want to take a chance on blind trust that that freeloader will be a buyer in marriage. I'd have zero ability to verify a freeloader.

Marrying a freeloader sounds like a gamble this betrayed wife certainly doesn't want to sign up for, and certainly something I would never recommend to anyone who has felt the wrath of adultery.

Something else to think about. When you test drive a car, you buy it on faith. You check it out, kick the tires and test drive it in the hopes that it will be a reliable car in the future. But you don't know for sure. You have make a judgment based on the information available to you at the time.

Same with a house. You have it inspected, appraised, check it's history. But you can't live there.

It is in that way that dating is a freeloader proposition. The goal of dating is to find someone who will be a BUYER in the future.

I dont understand why I should be a "buyer" if I'm not married and just starting to date

BUT, they are still a freeloader until they are married. They are not a buyer, by definition, until they are married. Once again, daters are freeloaders. Dr Harley says all the time he was freeloader when they were dating. He is now a buyer.

What you have to do is make sure your dating candidate will be a BUYER once married. The goal of dating is to eliminate - not freeloaders - but those will REMAIN freeloaders after married.