I never said that I was going to be a freeloader permanently.
Some posters said that I sound like a freeloader and asked if I was one.
Its impossible for me to be a renter or buyer because I'm not married, dont have a girlfriend, or even a date!

We talk about this on another thread in dating. FS and SF are not needed to build romantic love. It's the ability to meet the most important ENs and the elimination of love busters that is key. If my dating partner had a need to be a stay at home dad after marriage I can demonstrate this ability to fulfill the need by going to work, showing them my bank accounts, and my budget, likewise I need my SF need met. My boyfriend can demonstrate his ability to meet the need by talking to me about it, by showing me his affection, and his awesome yoga moves!!!

I believe the good Doc that SF will fall into place when romantic love is met.

My concern going into marriage would be can this person and I maintain a romantic love threshold and not drain each other by sacrifice and love busters. If you listen to my radio conversations with Dr. Harley he agrees. One should learn to eliminate love busters and the importance of this.

As a betrayed spouse I wouldn't want anything less....so my bar for men is high. I'd hope they had a high bar as well. Feelings follow actions...!

I'll say it one last time ... you can be a freeloader in dating up until marriage, but I would be very concerned one may get stuck with a bad egg. We talk about this in the dating thread. Many freeloaders just don't work out well.

If you read BRF .... the freeloader sounds like a very bad choice during marriage. I've been in the dating world long enough to feel very scared of the freeloader. Men not willing to demonstrate proper care during dating will likely not do it in marriage. This betrayed spouse only believes actions. Words mean nothing unless verifiable. Feelings follow actions ... that makes me feel safe.

Also, you need to be aware of red flags and act on them. Such as those pretending to wanting to meet your needs, only to be an actually freeloader. Ignoring the red flags during dating will get you that bad egg in marriage.

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That's why you watch them by their actions. Words mean nothing. Men can say all day long they will do this and they will do that ... but that means nothing. It's what one can verify.

The first guy I dated was super hot. He met my needs, FS, affection, IC, and RC. We had a good time, and he spent money on me like no tomorrow. We started out as office friends, but after a couple months I could see his IB, and his minimal time with his kids. We talked about his IB, like you think you could give up golf some to do this with your kids? He wouldn't and felt his Saturdays with his buddies were his time. I broke up with him almost after that discussion because I knew his habit of IB was likely not going to change much. He had no desire to change.

Then I started dating another guy. He started off very IB. He and I had great IC, RC, and he was very affectionate. He met my FS need, and I liked him. His IB during the first three months of the relationship was a huge turn off because again I knew he wasn't going to give this up. But he proved me wrong. When I broke up with him I told him I was just not sure he and I could mesh our lives, and he had no kids and I had several. I felt we should go our separate ways. He proved me wrong. He came to me after a couple weeks, apologized, wooed me, and said he was willing to work with me on negotiations and showing me proper care. He felt I had great qualities in a woman, and so forth. He demonstrated his actions to me all the way up until I moved. He was a great catch, and looking back I can see how he was working on himself to be a better boyfriend. I learned a lot from that relationship.

I have several guy friends who are now going into dating with knowledge of EN's and POJA. Many of guy friends are open to POJA. Some say they aren't because it is too controlling...so you just say, Okay then good luck to you.

A guy I became great friends with in August is starting to come around and woo me some. He and I have had many great discussions about adultery, POJA, and EN's. He doesn't have a close relationship with his 15 year old son, but is working some new approaches with his son to be more involved.

These are things one should be looking at during dating. Can people who have made mistakes have a willingness to correct them. Like I said most people in our age range have bad habits and baggage. It is how they show they can overcome those obstacles that makes the person desirable in my opinion.

I would never take a man for his word ... I would want him to really demonstrate he cared for me. My WxH believed in the notion his needs trump all others and I should sacrifice. I did that for years. I won't do it any longer. Many freeloaders fall into this pattern. They love women to meet then needs at their expense. I have had many many dates with those kind of folk. Most men in our age range are set in their ways.

There is a good portion of men out there that want to learn and do better. They want a marriage that is great. They have to overcome the sacrifice notion as well. It's those men who understand how sacrifice ruins marriages that get my vote. It's those men in dating that show enthusiasm for the win/win that get my extra vote. I've only found oneof them so far (out of 30) ... so the rarity is real.

Marriage is the biggest commitment one makes, so one should only enter it with a sense of ownership. Dating, on the other hand, is a series of field tests. No commitment. Its a try out. Almost all sports teams at the school level have try outs, right? No commitment to any player is made until the try outs are over. Part of the dating "try out" is getting a sense of compatibility, character, and how well each is able to meet the other's needs. It's also a chance to discover things that are not so appealing or that are red flags.

The concept of "freeloader" and "buyer" applies to many areas of life. For example, we see them both in the work place every day. There are employees who are there just to collect a pay check, and then there are those who see themselves as shareholders and who treat their workplace as if they "own" it. We all know which of these two make for better employees. I look at being a buyer as commitment. I really like what Hyundai had to say about this in one of their commercials a few years back:

Some people have the integrity and the substance to understand commitment, while others are shallow and don't have the will to see a commitment through and let their roots run deep. Though dating isn't a commitment in the way that marriage is, you will discover the person's quality over a period of time and find out if they are committed to those things that are most important: faith, family, work, and community. This is what Home Sweet Home was pointing out. But that speaks to the person's values, not the process. The dating part of the process is a try out, not a commitment.

The freeloading aspect of dating is simply a function of the process. When we are dating, we are on the free market. We can take it or leave it if its not right for us. If we like it a lot, we prepare to make a commitment, and once we are ready to commit we are locked in forever. At that point we become owners, or "buyers" as Dr. Harley puts it.

Awesome post, Justthe3ofus! You stated it perfectly.

Well I took the kids skating today.
There was an attractive woman with 4 kids there.
I went up to her and said "Hi" and engaged in some light conversation.
I asked if she was a single mom and she said she was married.....so I quickly backed out of the conversation.
She wasn't wearing a wedding ring so I had no way of knowing.

Hearing Jedi described as sounding like he doesn't want to be a Buyer sounds to me like the times I've heard wives on this board who have been trying to bring their husbands around for 3+ years, the husbands are still abusing/neglecting them, they desperately need to go to Plan B, and some knucklehead shows up saying "You have to show him you are willing to have a good marriage with him."



Of course Jedi plans to be a Buyer. Isn't that obvious? Just as obvious as the fact that women in that situation desperately are willing to have a good marriage with their dirtbag abusive husbands if they will ever get their heads out of their butts and straighten out?

I'm not sure how anyone could say different with all the effort he has been putting in around here first to save his previous marriage and now to learn the program and how to be a good husband! Makes me wince to see people suggest otherwise.

Jedi,
I rarely wore my wedding ring (my finger would swell during the day and it was super uncomfortable when it did so I literally could not keep it on).

I am so impressed that you asked.

Good job.

I could not agree more that "words mean nothing" while dating.

I've dated 25 men in the past 6 months. Many have said they've "learned so much" from their divorces, but their actions show me otherwise. They say they want to meet a woman's needs, that they want a life-long partnership, but it's painfully obvious that they are unwilling to make even the simplest accommodations in a relationship (based upon their ex GF horror stories & dating behavior).

Several are deeply discouraged and wonder aloud if it just takes "too much work" to please women & "nothing they do is good enough."

My heart breaks for these men, as the gap between their understanding and their desire is so great, and they cannot figure out why they've been unsuccessfully looking for a wife - for years. In my age range, women are pretty cautious about remarriage and they watch for behavior that shows "I'll become a buyer."

My personal experience is that men usually want to date me exclusively rather quickly (my first freeloader-to-renter clue) but after I'm "locked in," their behavior shifts ever so slightly. I tread lightly, listen a lot, and watch their behavior with their exW, children, boss, and friends...and with me. And this is where things fall apart rather quickly.

These aren't bad guys...but they just haven't learnt to appreciate the differences between men and women, or the need for both people to be happy long-term.

Probably my greatest "early" clue is: do they speak respectfully of people - especially of women? Without profound respect for others, it's awfully hard to avoid SDs, DJs, and anger. It's nearly impossible to live by the POJA if a person believes - deep down - that the other person is "irrational" or " ridiculous."

Our culture sure doesn't help men much. It's a bummer. Thank goodness for MB.

There is nothing offensive in stating his preference. People have be smart enough to realize that most people can not be every guy's/girl's dream date.

Though a dialogue in the movie king pin a few can.

If I heard a statement like this from a man, he would be immediately eliminated from my pool of eligibility.
I am looking for a man who wants an equal partner.
This statement is the opposite (in my mind): it makes me think he wants a young, easily dominated, bright shiny toy. I would say good luck to him, and move on.

Jedi is perfectly within his right to state his preference. And ladies are also within their rights to take the information available to them and go somewhere else.

I acknowledge that I could be reading too much into the statement here - which might cause me to miss a great person! But the fact is that in dating, I have very little information to go on, and every word counts. I listen carefully for any hint of an 'I don't really want an equal partner" attitude - and move on quickly if I hear it.

I should clarify, these sound like opposites!!

The first statement should probably read: "promises mean nothing," or "statements assuring a person of future good behavior while actions and history have not shown it - mean nothing."

THIS is why I would never succeed in politics...although I'm sure there are many other reasons as well!

I think the reason why some of your are reading more into it is because you are. 26 year old beauty queen = young, hot woman. He didn't say anything about dominating a woman. Maybe 26 because typically younger = energetic. Who knows. I don't see this any different than a woman saying she wants a man who is financially well off or rich.

I spend a good amount of time in the gym. Some women think big muscles are gross. This is their preference. I don't think it's insulting. They're just preferences. It's not like the poor guy wants to hook up with children.

You are definitely reading too much into the statement here. I don't think it's a problem if it causes you to miss a great person - there are plenty of great people available. But I think it's causing you to be pretty rude to a nice guy.

Nothing wrong with making a joke that of course he'd love a 26 year old beauty queen to drop into his lap, and I think you should quit riding him so hard about it. It doesn't mean he wants to dominate his wife - that's ridiculous and totally out of character for him. He obviously wants a marriage based on Marriage Builders principles.

Prisca has jokingly told me I'm not allowed to die before her because she doesn't want to be left without me, that she has to go first. My joking response was that afterward I'll go chase 20 year old women. Prisca doesn't feel dominated, nor does she think I want to dominate anyone.

I think you should leave Jedi alone - you are being extremely rude and disrespectful to him. We get that you didn't find the joke funny.

Loose paraphrase:

"Of course, if I could have everything I wanted, I'd like a 26 year old foreign beauty queen with no issues to appear out of nowhere and start a perfect relationship with me, but of course I know that's unrealistic, and I intend to look far and wide, find a good woman, and give myself to her totally in a relationship of extraordinary care, which will certainly include protecting our marriage from threats and competition."

I'd say the phrase "issues" is a little bit loaded - too many men (and women) dismiss their spouse's feelings as being caused by "issues," rather than separating the concerns of a) I want to respect and consider your feelings in all things regardless of the cause and b) I want you to avoid being demanding, disrespectful, or angry to me regardless of how you feel.

But other than that - let's be honest, men are turned on by beauty. We can try to beat that out of them with disrespect, or accept it.

I'm sure I'd love to have a relationship with a 26 year old beauty queen - provided certain other conditions were met! But I don't even take the first step toward that because I value and protect my marriage with Prisca. Who I would rate as a 31 year old beauty queen, actually...

I have a question about forgiveness.
I was speaking with a minister today and he encouraged me to forgive my ex wife; During this conversation I shared with him the key points of Harley's article, Why Can't We Just Forgive and Forget?

The minister responded by pointing out Second Corinthians and said that I should do it to show an example of God's forgiveness, and as Paul said, so that the sinner will not be given over to the Devil. He does not advocate forgetting and he states there should still be high boundaries.
He told me his brother in law was recently killed by a teenager with a cell phone and that it was difficult for his sister to forgive but she did.

I have thought about this and was curious what other thought.
He suggested I write a brief letter to ex wife simply stating that our relationship is permanently severed (still be in plan B) but that I forgive her for her adultery.

He says he deals with a lot of people that have bitterness and I told him that I dont feel bitterness.

I am starting a new year and going through major life changes and if a letter of forgiveness would perhaps help ex ww repent and seek a relationship with God then I would be willing to do that, as it would also permanently close that chapter of my life so I could move on into this new year

Jedi,

Here's what Dr. Harley says about forgiveness and he's speaking from a Biblical perspective:

Dr. Harley uses Matt 18:15 and Luke 17:3 as his basis for talking about what it means to forgive.

When we forgive someone it is for the purpose of reconciliation so that the end result is a relationship. He says that if reconciliation isn't happening, then forgiveness really has no purpose.

From Dr. Harley's perspective, the other person would repent and then we would forgive. Repentance would mean a 180 turn from the sin. The condition for God's forgiveness of our sins is repentance. If this were not so, then everyone would be forgiven without condition. Some people quote Jesus on the cross asking God to forgive those who were crucifying Him, because they "didn't understand what they were doing." They use this passage as the reason we are to forgive even when someone is not asking for forgiveness. However, many many verses in the Old and New Testaments show that God requires repentance of His people.

Forgiveness can happen when a person owes a debt to you that they cannot repay. When the debt is forgiven, it is forever wiped out.

Forgiveness is a term that is often used incorrectly. What many people really mean is to "let go" and to get on with one's life.

That is what you want to do. You hold no bitterness toward your wife, but you also don't want a relationship with her. You are letting go and moving on. You don't wish her ill and you are not dwelling on the pain she brought to you.

If you really want to write your wife a farewell-type letter, you could say something to the effect that you hope she has a good life and that you wish her the best. But then still, what would really be the point of it? Unless you parted on horrible terms and you want to clear the air, then you can just let your Plan B love letter stand.

The only purpose of any letter would be to offer spiritual benefit to ex ww.
The pastor said that it could allow her to see the love of God.
I also am entering a new phase in my life and want to close this chapter of my life forever