Here lies the problem and this is why you will NEVER feel better about your marriage. You have to spend 20-25 hours per week meeting the4 intimate emotional needs of affection, rec companionship, conversation and sexual fulfillment in order to create a new marriage. Right now you are in a crippled version of the pre-affair marriage. You are both MORE vulnerable to an affair today than you were before and it will get worse if you don't adopt a program of recovery.

I would schedule your UA time FIRST and then schedule work. Your UA time is the most important time in your week. Nothing is more important. Print out several copies of this worksheet and sit down and schedule your time: here

Time that is not scheduled is much easier to put off than time that is not.


Your financial problems can be worked out if you will use this program. Your lovebusters can be resolved if you will use this program.


Once again, the policy of joint agreement.....


Hopefully, he knows HOW to apply the concepts of Marriage Builders and is helping you do that. Otherwise, I predict your marriage will never improve and will likely experience another affair. Ask him to show you what concept of Marriage Builders he is working right now in your marriage. What is his plan? What is his plan to help you recover from the affair and restore the romance to your marriage? If you do not have a plan and are sitting in his office citing grievances, you will only get worse, not better.

If you don't use the steps prescribed by Marriage Builders, your marriage is never going to get better. If your counselor knows how to save marriages, he knows this, though.


You have to use the program, my friend. Reading the book is a waste of time if you never take the advice.


We can help you. But you have to do the work. One of the first steps I would suggest is getting the workbook, Five Steps to Romantic Love and start following those lessons along with the lessons in SAA.

Not having a plan is a plan to fail.

Okay... I replied before reading the other posts. So here are some additional answers.

1. I still talk about the affair. I know I need to stop. I will try. It usually starts with my husband noticing a sad look on my face and he asks what I'm thinking about. I tell him he doesn't want to know. And when he presses I tell him and it's usually me thinking about the affair or being triggered. What practical tips do you have when you are tempted to discuss it?

2. Neither of us travels on a regular basis. I have two conferences that I attend each year and another week for meetings. He traveled some in the past. Not so much anymore. Last time was July. But he's told the other people that he's out of town with about the affair. Of course if you want to have an affair there's always a way to get around precautions.

3. POJA is going pretty well. We discuss our issues better and try to understand the others position. We both agree enthusiastically before doing something. We used it dealing with his dad and revising our Christmas plans so as to not even be in the same town when his sister will be there.

4. UA probably more like 10-15. It's hard with kids and work. We went golfing this week so that was six hours and dinner last night. We are going to the mountains this weekend with the kids. But we will be going out for dinner by ourselves.

5. Hmmm grievances in counseling... I suppose not exactly. Sometimes I leave more confused. Last time I told him the problems I was having with trust and not feeling loved because of the affair. I will be sure to address the plan. Is there a list of MB counselors?

6. We have done the ENs questionnaires. I can't recall the others.

7. We read SAA and HNHN but I think we need to read SAA again. We are bringing it with us this weekend.

8. Extreme precautions- no relationship with his immoral lying cheating sister. No FB for him. GPS tracking of his phone. We couldn't change his cell number as that number is listed on advertising for his business. Deleted OW contact info. Complete access to each other's phone and passwords. OW lives three hours away. Our kids know about the A. When I'm out of town (< 3 weeks per year) he's usually tied up running them around. His next trip will be a guys week and my dad will be there and he knows about the affair. He meets weekly with a pastor from our church. I am trying to meet with someone from church every other week. We don't hang out with members of the opposite sex. He's working for someone else as well as running his business so he has more accountability.

We do have really good days where we laugh and have fun. The sex is better and more frequent but most times images of them together pop in my head when we have sex. I can usually push them aside. Then other days I'm a depressed mess. I feel schizophrenic most of the time. One extreme to the other.

Thanks for your advice. We will reread SAA and do the workbook and schedule our UA time.

I needed a little kick in the butt. Thanks &#128512;

My best tip is to not talk about it. If you feel tempted a lot, then look around and start making note of the triggers. Strive to eliminate those triggers. But don't talk about it anymore. You will feel happier if you place more focus on getting out on 4 - 4 hour dates a week. When you are out, never speak about the affair and be as pleasant as you can. You need to schedule the bulk of your UA time out on DATES.


BUT, spending the night apart is an invitation to an affair. It causes detachment and it also creates an opportunity. You don't need to take that chance since you are both extremely vulnerable to an affair. If you have to travel, then take your spouse. Saying that there is "always a way" is no excuse to take risks with your marriage.


Are you enthusiastic about being with his family AT ALL? Grudging agreements are worse than no agreements because they lead to unhappiness and resentment. A grudging agreement is what Dr Harley calls sacrifice, and sacrifice is a renters agreement.


I would get in the habit of scheduling 20 hours of quality UA time FIRST and then scheduling your time with the kids. Your marriage is the most important thing in your childrens' lives.


What is his plan to restore the love? And what are your problems with trust? The best advice I can give you is to familiarize him with the MB plan and ask him to help you. I would give him this book: Effective Marriage Counseling: The His Needs, Her Needs Guide to Helping Couples and ask him to help you affair proof your marriage and restore the romantic love.


I can't tell you how many marriages have been ruined when the OW or OM called the WS out of the blue. In fact, I believe there was a call to that effect on Dr Harleys radio show this week. Do you realize that the OW can call your husband and the affair is very likely to resume? I would suggest linking that # to an answering service - or you, if possible - and getting him an entirely new #. You are wide open for another affair as long as the OW can reach him at that #. Think about how you can close that gaping hole.

What other holes are there that need to be shut down?


Good girl!

ML covered everything

One additional note is that from my experience we needed to do the EN questionnaire and the LB questionnaire every couple of months during early recovery as my needs changed regularly and it helped keep track of progress made.

I really love the idea of taking the LB questionnaire. I would probably put aside the EN questionnaire for now and focus on the 4 intimate emotional needs. Meeting those 4 needs will make the greatest lovebank deposits, which is necessary to create romantic love. Usually when a spouse is detached [or in withdrawal] they score high on non-intimate, low impact EN's like FC or FS, none of which make significant enough lovebank deposits to create romantic love.

The good news- last week went well. We got in > 20 hours of UA time.

And the bad news- caught my husband in a big lie. Last year our individual federal tax refund was applied to my husband's payroll taxes for the business. This was upsetting as all of the taxes paid in throughout the year were from tax withholding from my job. So I knew going into this year that this would happen again for federal taxes- bye bye another thousand.

So we were also due a two thousand refund for state. I point-blank asked my husband if he was current on the business state payroll taxes because I wanted to know if the state tax refund (also made entirely of my employment withholding) would be taken as well. And he said he was all current. So today I called the state to find out where my refund was and found out he was delinquent and they took the refund and applied to the business payroll taxes.

So he LIED to me again. I am so fed up. Any small amount of trust I had is now gone. I feel like I am back at square one. He said he didn't want to upset me (and didn't think they would take the refund so I wouldn't find out) and says this is the only thing he hasn't been honest about. Well of course his word is worth nothing. He says he has the money to pay me but that of course is not the point.

I really want him to move out but then I think about the kids and don't know what to do. So over ten months after D-day he has not changed. And I wonder if he is capable of change and being honest.

Thoughts?

HN, please don't come this far and throw it all away. I know you are upset, but this can be resolved. Don't get angry at him and don't lovebust. RATHER, keep setting up his life so that it is so transparent that he CAN'T HIDE anything. You should have access to all of his business records so he can't hide this kind of stuff again. The more integrated your lives, the more impossible it will be for him to hide things.

And congrats for getting in your 20 hours!!

I operated a business and never shared anything with my wife.
It was a form of independent lifestyle.
If he is going to be in business it should be a joint venture.
Otherwise there is too much opportunity for independent behaviors

But shouldn't I be able to expect an honest answer and not a lie when I ask him a question? I don't feel like I can trust anything he says. I don't want to be a detective all the time.

I think he would need to sell the business and just be an employee at the company he's been working at the last few months. Right now he's been running his business and working for this other company.

I am just so tired and worn out. I think I need a break from him.

Don't be a detective, just become so integrated and transparent that he can't lie anymore.

Well. My FIL had agreed to sit down and discuss the situation with my husband regarding my SIL (FIL's daughter) role in my husbands affair. (You can read my very first post to get the summary. My husband has had NC with his sister who does not want to see us as well because my husband told his sisters husband of the two year affair she has been having.) When we tried to do that over Christmas he refused to let us speak. He therefore does not know the extent of her involvement.

By the way, not sure I've updated you lately but the SIL told my MIL (who relayed to me) that given the chance she would do everything the same, i.e., seeing as she believed her brother was unhappy she would tell him of her friends attraction to him, give him her phone number, hide the trutth from me and encourage my husband to leave me for OW (her best friend).

So today my husband received this text from his father:

Morn Son . Hope today is better for you . I'd like for you and I to talk when you are alone , and have no distractions . If that's not possible and you and I cannot even talk anymore between ourselves ; then it's ok . I can handle it . I can feel good with myself that I did my best to raise my (Children) ; I have two ; and I can live in peace . I do appreciate your dedication to the principal of marriage and all you are doing to glorify it . Now comes the main point of your and my current misunderstanding . I have TWO fine children that I LOVE . They are both different , always we're , always will be . I refuse to let a situation or event , I had absolutely NOTHING to do with , divide my family . I wasn't there , do not know what transpired , and only hear snippets of [censored] of childish stuff that went on . NOW ; here's the thing that infuriates me . My grown son ,sits at my table , at Christmas time , ( a season of supposedly happiness and joy) and asks me to choose between my children . If YOU were asked to choose between your two children , could you ??? I mean : PICK one !!!!! Now , let's get to the root of the problem . You and {your wife} need to try and work on your situation with {our BIL} and {husbands sister} . If it takes years , or months , or days , I don't care . I am telling you this : I will tell you whenever {our BIL} and {husbands sister} will be at my home , and I will tell you that I will NEVER invite one of my children and spouses without inviting the other . That's because that was the way I was raised . FAMILY is all we have ; AMEN , SON !!!!!!

Husband's reply:

Sorry dad. Been going through a lot last couple days. Was going to call you today anyway. I would love the chance to talk with you. That's all I've wanted. I will call you this afternoon.

His dad's reply back:

I can emagine , Son . We've all heard that phraise , walk a mile in my shoes ; I can't emagine your journey , having to deal with all the sensitivity issues . I'll look for your call . Thanks Son .

Glad to know I am a distraction and a sensitivity! I suggested to my husband that he should copy the text into an email and respond to each point. I don't think my FIL will let him talk just as he did at Christmas.

Thoughts?

well, by your FIL's own admission, he wasn't there and doesn't know what transpired.

The root of the problem is not that you need to "work" on your situation with your brother and sister in law. The root of the problem is that your FIL doesn't like the divide in the family.

My MIL doesn't like the divide that is in our family now either. I do feel bad for them, but A's affect families, jobs, friends, children, and finances. It is not our job to make everything sugar coated so that their lives aren't changed.

I have trouble with this sometimes, I do. You can read my posts today to see that I sometimes still care a bit too much about what others think, especially my elders.

Your SIL sounds as if she has no remorse about her enabling of the A. Still not a safe person.

Great job that your H is being so transparent with this stuff. I'm sure that you know to do this, but remember to keep it safe for him to be honest with you. No love busters. Complaints and thoughtful requests. <---this took me a long time to learn, so I'm not talking down at ya, just hoping to remind since I seem to need lots of reminders myself LOL

I can understand a parent not wanting to ostracize an offspring, but FIL sounds like he doesn't have the balls to admit any wrongdoing. That's hurtful and disrespectful to the betrayed spouse in this case. Will be interesting to see how the conversation goes.

Worse, it sounds to me like FIL is blaming BW for the state of their marriage.

Exactly because he probably doesn't care about his sons marriage. Only cares about the illusion of a happy family despite the destruction and bad choices his daughter had a hand in. Nothing good will come of this conversation, personally I feel if FIL has something to say to his son he can say it in front of his wife as well. If not then FIL needs to be on the same boat as SIL.

I think you have all hit the nail on the head. I am seen as the enemy. We met with a friend from church and he and I encouraged my husband at lunch to send an email to his dad. Here is the draft:


Hi Dad, I wanted to respond to your text with this email. I felt that I might not say the things that I want you to hear during a phone conversation. I will be glad to talk after you have read this if you would like.

Here it goes,
I want to get one thing clear. I, myself, am making this decision. I am not being influenced by my wife in any way other than I love her and want to be the husband she deserves. Through all this I have seen that I was not the person that I wanted to be. I was a fake. You might say I have grown up and become a man finally. I realized that I needed to put my family (my wife and the kids) first. I was very selfish with my decisions and easily influenced by others. I have also learned that anyone that will damage this family should not be a part of it. My family is most important and I will not do anything further to jeopardize it.

Dad, I have never asked you to choose between your children. That is not what I am doing here. I have tried to explain why I have made the decision I have and was trying again at Christmas. While I am fully responsible for my actions SIL encouraged my behavior and was a catalyst for my affair. She told me that OW liked me, she gave me her phone number, she told me to be careful when she learned of the affair, she told me the kids would be fine if my wife and I got divorced, she talked about all the fun the four (SIL, BIL, OW, and myself) of us would have together, and she told me how OW and I were soul mates. She does not want me to be married to my wife.

She has no respect for my marriage or marriage in general. For two years before my affair I talked with SIL and tried to convince her to stop the affair she was having with OM. I was unsuccessful in being a good role model to her and in the end it was her that influenced me to disastrous consequences. I see that I am not strong enough and will not put myself in that situation again.

Did you know that SIL does not want to see us because I refused to lie to BIL and told him about SIL's affair. I told BIL twice to ask SIL but she continued to lie to him so I told him the truth. The fact that she doesn't want to talk to me because I would not lie to BIL about her affair is absurd! I have only asked that you respect my decision and not create a situation that causes me to choose. Because I will choose to protect my family. No, I could not choose between my two kids but if one was wrong I would be sure to let them know I thought they were wrong. The root of the problem is this: my wife and I would be willing to reconcile but the ball is in SIL's court. She needs to admit that she was wrong and show some remorse in what she did and apologize to my wife l and I before anything will be worked out. Not say that she would do the exact same thing if she had to do it all over again (as she told mom recently)!!! Why would I choose to be around someone who admits that they would take steps to harm my marriage? I cannot ignore what happened and sweep it under the rug for your sake. I do not want to be fake and selfish again.

Dad, I am sorry that this has happened and you feel that you are in the middle of it. The truth is, I made a mistake that effects the whole family. I have realized my mistake and have asked for forgiveness and have begun reconciling. Unfortunately, our family will never be the same again. With that said, nothing will change as far as you being able to see your grandkids or my wife and me. You are welcome to come down here anytime you like and we will make it up there when we can. Our children are new generation and both have cell phones and email. They would love to hear from their Pop-Pop every once in a while as well.


Not sure I would be ready to see SIL again but chances of her changing in the near term are a pretty long shot. Anything you think should be added? I think hubby did a great job. I added a little but most of the letter was his. &#128512;

Shocked beyond belief but happy. FIL's response to email:

Well said , Son . After reading your response , I agree wholeheartedly ; while words translate our message , they sometimes evoke too much emotion . You have made your case very clear , and I'm proud of the stand you are taking . I'm at peace with your decision , and I will handle your response with diplomacy and best judgement I can . We as a family , will be alright , you and your family will be fine . I too ; wish it could be different , but as long as I can see my children ; even separately , it will be ok . Love you son . Sincerely. Dad

Pigs must be flying!

Too bad dad won't tell his daughter her affair is wrong.

It's easier to ignore then it is to take actions sometimes(speaking of FIL) I don't believe this issue is permanently out to rest. Good work of your husband putting his marriage before harmful family relationships. Are your children aware of your husbands affair and SIL role in it?

Yes, our kids know about the affair as well as SIL's role and FIL's previous and current position on the matter. My daughter didn't really want to see my SIL at Christmas but she wanted to see her cousins so she did visit at SIL's house for a couple of hours when FIL took my children for a visit. She is wise beyond her 12 years and sees the SIL for the fake materialistic immoral person she is. (We've had some great conversations that have taught her some valuable lessons and made us closer). I wasn't sure whether we should let them go but I felt they were fully informed about what happened and would not be "taken in" by anything she would say. My son is much more quiet about the affair and family situation.

And I agree that this isn't the end but it's a great start. At least he shouldn't be pushing for any family get togethers soon. I feel like I can relax a bit.

It was the one year anniversary of D-day on New Year's Eve and that was rough. After two days things got better. Was also disappointed that none of my friends called or texted to see how I was doing.

But all in all it's been a good couple of weeks! Thanks to everyone on MB for their advice and help. You don't really understand until you've gone through it.