I do. I was hoping - for your heart's ease, and for your children's sake - that this had worked out.

But, knowing how respectful you are here, and your willingness to make such effort, I am certain that you'll find someone wonderful.

Based on the age of your kids, I encourage you to have no contact with her so you can move on.
I have been in plan B with my ex wife and going no contact has given me a great peace of mind

It's not that easy with the kids, honestly. I would love to go plan B, but it absolutely requires and intermediary, and there isn't one around here that I can count on, and email isn't going to work since I would need somewhere to take them.

I'll put some effort into finding one again, but if I don't it's not anywhere near as bad as it was. I don't have any love left to protect anymore, and she isn't really abusive anymore since we live separate lives, just wanting to explore reconciliation under conditions that won't work.

AK,
You gave it your best shot and you handled this wisely. One day, your ex-wife may understand what you're position is and live to regret it.

Sorry it didn't work out.

ak, I understand how it's appropriate, but it still sounds like you're the renter, unwilling to brainstorm solutions together. It's not unreasonable for someone who put you through school to expect you to do a little brainstorming together to figure out how she can get educated, too.

That is called sacrifice, NED. She wants the education at his expense. He is wise to pass on that.

NED,

I'm confused. Why would he be a buyer yet with his XWW? She's the one who needs to show him. Her affair was on and off for 11 years. I think him even giving her a chance to hear her out is more than he needed to do. He needs to protect himself. She has proven AGAIN that she won't put her marriage first and be a buyer. She goes back and forth between freeloader and renter. Isn't that sacrificing???

ak1,

I think you are being smart.

I agree, Ak. Keep working at finding a woman that will compliment you in a good Marriage Builders relationship.

I want to brainstorm, and have asked to do that many, many times. I'm perfectly fine with school, just not fine with school, traveling abroad for 3 months, and another item that triggers the affair in a very significant way, all in the name of supporting her individualism.

This isn't about her education as I'm enthusiastic about that, this is about her getting supported in her goals, even if they are at my expense, and unwillingness to negotiate about it. To her I'm either supporting her individualism or not.

On top of that, she didn't put me through school, and even if I wanted to do something that took 60 hours a week, it's still up for negotiation.

ak

I didn't mean to hit a nerve here. Just from here as someone who went back to get an education at a school an hour from the house without spending evenings away, it sounds very do-able. And as far as the immersion thing I'm thinking there's middle ground there, too, maybe a month family vacation in a place would be do-able too. I've worked at a place where most of my fellow employees spoke another language on lunch break, actually, the place I work now is like that too, maybe there are in-town ways to get that immersion experience.

None of this addresses her desire for independence in marriage, which is the real problem. If she desired an integrated marriage, in which nobody sacrificed and nobody gained at the other's expense, then sure they could probably negotiate a way for her to continue her education.

The basic problem, though, is not her schooling, but her entire approach to marriage. If she is averse to taking the steps to create an integrated marriage where POJA reigns supreme then the marriage won't work. So, they could brainstorm on one issue,[not that she is willing to do any such thing] but that doesn't help if one of the partners is against that practice. POJA takes 2 willing people who are interested in an outcome that makes both people happy. His XW has made it crystal clear that she will not give up her independent lifestyle to accommodate a marriage.

That was the same issue that led to the demise of their marriage. So he would be crazy to get back into the same situation again.

I agree that if ak were married to YOU this sort of brainstorming could easily happen. Her goals would be easy to work around. But that is not what she wants.

It is VERY subtle, but if you look at her replies, she uses the words 'support' and 'individualism' a whole lot. It's not the degree she really wants, she can get that some other way, or start a new one nearby with ak's help.

What she wants is sacrifice, disguised as support or respect for her as an individual. She sacrificed for him and she wants him to suffer for her back. This will prove that he will do so whenever she needs to do her own thing. Like the languages thing, which is clearly 'Will You Sacrifice For Me' test scenario #2. When people sacrifice as keenly as she did initially, they ALWAYS keep score. Later they make it clear that no other currency but sacrifice will pay off the 'debt'.

It's a bit like being an emotional loan shark.

One highly dedicated renter on these forums made her husband sacrifice by going to restaurants, which he hated. After ten years he said it was time for him to have some fun - with opposite sex friends. The 'pay back' is always at a much higher rate of interest, which we can also see in ak's example.

Have you read Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders? It makes it very easy to spot them. Dr H says renters have a very passionate and dedicated love of sacrifice and INSIST on it. It's not simply a laziness in finding the win-win solution.

They are not interested in brainstorming. They will find the one thing that is your deal breaker and ask for it to 'prove' your love thorugh sacrifice.

It's pretty obvious that the xWW doesnt really need the things she is asking for more than a marriage. What she really, really wants however is a sacrificial marriage.

Learning a language is more important than her marriage? Come on. The very fact she even came up with that says so much.

I have that book, I'm going to have to read it again, so I don't keep missing these things that are big and obvious to everyone but me. I just broke up with my fiancee, my mom started warning me about him early last year and I thought she just was being paranoid.

Have you read this NED?
Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders

I'll add here that there are many signs in dating that will reveal the hidden language behind renters. When one starts to get serious with someone bringing POJA subtly into the mix will be the best indicator on their stance for negotiation.

A person who cares for you will automatically work with you, so trying out options lets you see the exact level of their selfishness, but most importantly their honesty. You can't have POJA unless the person has 100% radical honesty. The two go hand in hand.

The minute you start to hear things like,

"We always...
"You did that last time ...
"We agreed on that but ...

You start to realize they were simply sacrificing to make you happy, and since they struggle with this simple task of being honest, they are likely not that honest in other areas of their life as well. Lying is a seriuosly bad habit many many folks have.

But I would like to add POJA is not something that comes natural, and sacrificing seems to be a habit most people are raised with today.

If you like someone, and they aren't perfect at POJA in the beginning, but are open to practicing it and make it better that is a great sign. Mostly because they have to be an honest person to really make POJA work.

Dr Harley says every person who is dating someone seriously should ask their friends and family for their *real* and specific opinion of the person. He says that we cannot be entirely objective ourselves.


I couldn't agree more with this. PoJA leaves no room for abuse, manipulation or guilt tripping and depends entirely on truthfulness and respect. If you are having good practice PoJA (there's no obligation to PoJA in dating, just practice it to see how well you both do) with them and if it goes well, it is probably because the other person has a respectful mindset too.

I've only posted small snippets of what she wrote/said. individualism is a big deal to her and frequently quoted.

Another marriage book I read sited the feminist movement as responsible for training women to fight for themselves and equality, just not in ways that make them marriage material.

I wonder how true this is. She has been in a bit of counseling.


This is so true, when she was in the affair she came right out and said we are even now, and that it was payback. Even today she is very keen to keep track of everything I've done, and tell me how unfair it is for me to not support her.

I should note that when she sacrificed for me, it wasn't something I typically forced since I did ask how she felt a lot, but she said she was always fine with it, like volunteering to sacrifice. She (by her own admission) made herself into a martyr, and while things have improved a ton, it's not like the score keeping stopped.


She is now saying that she is acting like a single woman and that she would change this stuff if she was in a relationship, but I'm not interested in a relationship until this stuff changes (for good!). One of the challenges with reconciliation, at what point do you stop being a renter when the problem in the first place was being renter from the beginning. Sounds like it's time to email the show.

ak

No I don't think so. I think you can safely let this one go with few regrets.

If she is dead set on being a permanent renter, putting herself first, ignoring the requirements of a caring marriage and living like a single woman - well then who is stopping her? Nobody that's who.

There's a vast difference between being a temporary renter, and being a permanent renter.

I'm a renter because I am not married. I have no obligation to anyone because I made no vows. If I discover tomorrow that my boyfriend and I are a bit too different and are struggling to PoJA, I can just walk away without fretting about it a whit.

But I do trial PoJA to see how it works for us and I find that it is in fact surprisingly easy. It's easy if you have the same priorities in life and are willing to be buyers - that is the only way in which PoJa is possible.

But even if I PoJA everything and act considerately I am not a buyer till I buy. I am a renter, albeit one who hopes to buy.

A permanent renter is a whole different animal. They NEED to see you sacrifice because they plan on being 'individual' at some point. So they martyr themselves ( I remember saying "Are you sure?" to WWXH a lot, then wondering why he wasn't enjoying the decision WE had supposedly made.) When they have achieved martyrdom, they then tell you what they need and point to the balance sheet and tell you what you 'owe' them.

This type also believes in unconditional love and blank sheet forgiveness. They want it clearly spelled out that care is not a requirement you should expect. And when they do neglect you, they want forgiveness. Obviously. Just run!

In your shoes I'd go full tilt Plan B but if you do stay in contact, consider: how does it affect you?

There's simply no need to converse with her at all and it only encourages her to blame you instead of truly looking at her own choices.

If you do stay in touch I would just stick to a cheerful and firm line along the lines of "Suit yourself but my answer is no". Something like: "Long distance relationships simply don't work - however I hope you will be very happy and achieve everything you want in life." Don't engage and just be very nonplussed.

We each do have free will and she is, after all, free to be an idiot if she likes. Just as you are free to steer clear.

ak,
I want to share this important advice with you about dating in Alaska.
Technically its not MB advice but very practical however: