Not really, Bob. If she didn't want to be there, she wouldn't. So yes, there is an 'us' now.

Regardless of what she is doing, YOU are not doing the program. Even with an 'us' in the relationship it takes more. It takes goal setting, implementation and change.

She is still complaining about you. Right? What have you done to change yourself to address her complaints?

Sure you can have an 'us' and still be miserable. That is what you have now....an unhappy 'us'.

You must stop the LB'ing each other and start making LB deposits. But you know this.

Why do you accept mediocrity? Don't you want more for yourself? Why don't you make it happen? You have the knowledge and the tools right in front of you to turn this around.

Bob, I have been exactly there - no US in the marriage. No motivation from my wife.

It was still possible to use this program to turn it around.

I decided I wasn't going to ignore any single one of Dr. Harley's suggestions. I started by getting to my doctor and going through the extreme embarrassment of asking for antidepressants. With my head cleared I was able to think much more strategically and save my marriage.

There is definitely an us now, but there would not have been if I hadn't hung on and followed the recommendations for turning things around.

When a wife is reluctant, a husband still has incredible potential for turning things around. Dr. Harley is much more optimistic when the husband is motivated and the wife is reluctant, than when it is the other way around.

But you probably need to get yourself some help first. Go see your doctor. Until then, it's not really accurate to say you've done "everything," is it?

Wishing you the best, Bob, and praying for you daily.

Bob, I hear you saying that you are respectful to your wife (in her presence, at least). But the things you say here about her are very disrespectful. I can testify to the fact that when your wife is not motivated to work on your marriage it is hard to talk about that problem respectfully. Extremely hard.

But I can also tell you that when HerPapaBear/tst spoke to me privately about my marriage (MANY times) he did NOT cut me any slack on this subject. Each and every time he pointed out that I was being disrespectful. It was a proud day for me indeed when he said "I noticed that you are now being respectful about Prisca when you complain about her." Wow! If he had not done this for me, my marriage would probably not have been saved.

I had to learn to be respectful about my wife ALL THE TIME. Not just when I was in her presence.

I got the exact same message from Kim (our coach from Dr. Harley in the Marriage Builders followup program) and from Steve Harley. Steve Harley told me my wife was right to be upset with me for how disrespectful I was toward her in the things I said here and to not treat this board as a place where I could post without her knowledge and be disrespectful about her. Kim's constant refrain was "don't go there, markos" whenever I began to start blaming Prisca. Prisca was not motivated to follow the program, and I still had to learn to construct my sentences in such a way that they did not blame Prisca. Now that's some trick! But it has to be done.

Question: how does Mrs. Pure feel about the nickname you use for her here?

You can't go to a wife in withdrawal and reason logically with her like this. She won't give you any information. In withdrawal she doesn't want her needs met and isn't willing to meet your needs, so she has no motivation whatsoever to give you any information that will help you. She's not going to tell you why she doesn't show you affection. There's a good chance she does not even know.

It's clear that when a man hits the romantic love threshold in her love bank, as you did in the past, she becomes affectionate. A lot of women are like this. Apparently for whatever reason, despite your strong efforts, you aren't hitting the target. You need some more information to hit that target, information like you were looking for with this question. But she is in no position to give it to you. Let us help you adjust your aim so your arrows don't miss and you can succeed and get the affection you need.

(BTW, Affection is an important EN to me, too. But I got none from Prisca when she was in withdrawal - and I later found that she had an aversion to being affectionate with me during that time. In fact, when she tried, she was later going off by herself and throwing up! Dr. Harley is coaching a couple right now in the private forum where the wife has an aversion to touch and affection with her husband. It's not that uncommon, and it can be changed - but it's going to take some adjustment to your pump priming effort. That adjustment CAN be made, but as long as you keep defending yourself claiming you have done / are doing everything, you won't do so.)

Bob, please listen to this - it's the one Marriage Builders Radio broadcast above all others that turned things around for me:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03324
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03325
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03326
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/play_segment.cfm?sid=03327

She was eighteen when I met her in college class, pretty as a picture. She came into class and I had my big old rocker boots on her desk. She chided me. Next day I bought in pledge, cloths and a bucket and made a big show of cleaning her desk. She laughed til she cried. She had a bad cold. I asked her " So like-clean-desk-girl, whats your name ?"

She replied " It's Quinn". With her cold it sounded like " Id Squid". We laughed til we made tears.

She was Squid from that day to this.

You went to quite an effort to connect with her that day. Clearly, it was worth the effort then. So, what has changed?

I would venture to say that your wife has an EN for these kind of romantic gestures. In your exhaustion, you have stopped meeting that need. So, why not try meeting it again? Try being spontaneously fun.

To reinforce Marcos notion to stop all disrespectful actions and reactions towards your spouse so you can be in love once again....

I have recently come to appreciate how I am personally affected by my husbands negative non-verbal energy. In fact, how he'd been directing his energy both positive and negative helped me understand him to be wayward even while it was fantasy and I had no material evidence. And when he arrives home from work feeling not so good about his day and emotes non-verbally it feels I am on the receiving end or being used to rid himself of bad feelings. For one, I've had to learn to protect myself from being hurt this way. But now that my husband is 'on board' he is better at owning his stuff and telling me whats going on thus helping to create safety/set precautions. Interestingly if I'd ask my husband for example if he was mad he would deny it but his body language and non-verbal vibes said otherwise.

I'm saying this because your wife is likely aware at some level how your really feel. Your children likely have a clue too. Its all going to come out at some point sideways no matter your herculian efforts.

Fully own your feelings and take action to protect yourself and others.

I have always been this way. I keep my kids in hysterics. The only person in the room to not laugh is Squid. Either she doesn't find me funny or cute, or she can't allow herself to reward me with a laugh.

There are a couple of things that people who haven't been shoveling this for a decade refuse to hear. I know, I was one of them.

Firstly I do not intend to leave my marriage so the MB "leaving" as leverage will not work. My son has residual separation anxiety from when his friend committed suicide almost seven years ago. I have a unique relationship with him and I have a way to help him through his anxiety attacks. He started college in September and was a mess through anxiety. With work and prayer he is doing much much better now. He does not handle change well. My leaving would make him ill, until he is much much stronger and resilient. Divorce the same.

So my leaving until Squid decided to reach out to me with a preparedness to contribute to the MB program would be devastating for my son. I am not that selfish. It would be an empty gesture from me.

Also, frankly, Squid hasn't really changed her level of response to me in 8 years regardless of whether I am in a plan-A level of investment or not. I just end up feeling a bit pathetic when I look at all the work on my part with nothing back.

She has given me no hope, no glimpse in ten years that she is prepared to contribute anything towards my happiness.

Squid had a very complex upbringing with a strange and dysfunctional FOO. she and her sisters clearly carry baggage from that in how they behave. Whatever she is unresponsive to any positive attribute of mine, or any investment I make in her, yet micro-sensitive to any flaws. It is very tiring to live under the contempt of a person.

I had no intention of writing this much, just to post a cautionary tale for anyone similar. Don't beat yourself up. Some people just don't want to be better spouses.

I certainly believe that is true, but I likewise believe that for one to say that about one's own spouse is a DJ.

I appreciate your posting BP and am glad you wrote as much. As a cautionary tale it serves to underscore how any recovery depends on two willing spouses. Even though my FWW is working to be a better spouse, I bet I may have stayed if she weren't. For the kids. Your story would have helped me make a more educated decision.

Even if they admit it ?

She might not want to be a better spouse, Bob, but I'll bet she wants to have a happy, romantic marriage.

I don't know why she won't put in the effort to have one, but I'm certain that she wants one. Women do!

Yes, Bob, it is. Even if they admit it.

I know you're convinced you did everything you could, but it sounds like you had further to go on learning to recognize disrespect. I hear you saying that you don't use disrespect in her presence - but I also hear you having trouble recognizing when you are being disrespectful. So it makes me wonder how much disrespect you are expressing in her presence without being aware of it. You have related several examples here of things you have said to her, directly, that are disrespectful.

The love is busted, and with love busters around, it is not surprising. Like many women your wife is probably swayed very much by emotion. She is probably not interested in following a logical plan to restore your marriage, but it's clear that her attitude and behavior toward you are vastly different when your account in her love bank is higher. But it can't ever get higher when disrespect is present, because you can't fill a bucket when you are shooting holes in it.

Sir,

I have a Very Deep respect for your ongoing 10 year efforts.....

But,

Could some of these posters possibly be correct?

Is there more improvement you can work on for yourself and also eliminate any hint of Lovebusters that others have recognized?

Would your relationship be More or Less satisfying if you were to become a student with a new perspective once again?

LTL

I removed all lovebusters. For years. Made no difference and was hard work,as no effort was made by my wife to stop lovebusting me.

Squid has told me that she does not respect me. I need correcting so she corrects me. Any and all occasions.

Stopping the main Lovebusters of demands, disrespect, and anger is part of the equation, but not all of it. Have you eliminated independent behavior, dishonesty, and annoying habits? Meeting ENs are also part of the equation. I don't see how you could possibly be showing her care and affection with the thoughts you have expressed here.

Stopping Lovebusters is something you do for the rest of your life, regardless of what your spouse does. If your spouse doesn't stop theirs, there are other alternatives to you returning to committing your own Lovebusters.

She says she doesn't respect you, and that's information you can use. Why doesn't she respect you? What kinds of things does she correct you about? Can you let her know that you understand her point of view, but find a different way to communicate her complaints so she's not correcting you? Is it mostly annoying habits?

How about the policy of joint agreement? Do you follow it as Dr. Harley defines it?

You have said:

You need correcting...so she corrects you. Any and all occasions.

She doesn't respect you.

She has made no effort to not love bust you.

She committed adultery.

You will not leave under any circumstance.

She will not engage in MB's.

You will not engage in MB's.

She will not meet you EN's.

You are not meeting her EN's.

You are both very disrespectful to each other.

You do not follow the POJA.

You do not have Radical Honesty.

You do not spend 15hrs/wk UA.

This is a grim summary indeed. I am very sad for you friend. There is no way that love can be built under these conditions. none.

Do you know how Dr. Harley defines a marriage? It is a relationship of extraordinary care.
You do not have a marriage Bob. You are living (in misery) with a woman that you are legally bound to.

Yes, you are both LB'ing each other all over the place and you don't even realize it.
You have been given some great advice here. Why don't you take it?

What do you want? What are you willing to do to get there? Why are you here?

I may be out of line here. I've been around on this site a very long time. But like you we have had a difficult go. Not a text book recovery. Mostly all arrows pointed to hopelessness. I so wish my husband had bent over backwards from the 'new beginning' after D-day. Saved so much time and pain and money too. But the experience we've had is the experience we have had and I have to come away with the lessons the experience has offered. And here we are now and it seems there really is an opportunity to have the kind of relationship we all deserve. I'm hopeful. If you and I sat down and I told you the full story you would probably be surprised how far we have suddenly come.

Anyway, here's what I'm wondering and I am sure others with more concise knowledge can help clarify for me.

From what I understand the name of the game is to stay clear of SD, DJ, and AO. And from what I know of my own experience one another's stinking thinking or contempt can infect the other. So say for example your husband/wife does not want to follow POJA and negotiate to create win-win solutions and protect LB. If spouse is a IBers you experience them as dictators in the relationship due to their self interests at your expense. Then pretty soon you might have dualing dictators while you both assert for individual needs and rebalance. LB of both is drained to point of hatred.

And from what I understand one strategy to stop this cycle is to protect your own LB from further withdrawal by living apart. Contempt can take on a life of its own and kill the relationship. But sticking around is like death by one thousand cuts. Its suicide. Your son is watching this. Would it make sense to take a break. Test it out. Perhaps live near your son. Gather yourself and get a clearer view?

I look forward to hearing from you or the vets around here.

Let's be very careful here. This is a cautionary tale to anyone who does NOT use MB's that this is most likely your fate.

We are 2years into R and our M has never been better. We chose to follow the program so this is our fate. If we wouldn't have, we would be just like Bob and Squid.

Yes, you CAN have a happy M. By not following the program this is the result.