So, Ernie, how much have you read after p45?

Yes, you'll have people here pointing out where you're love busting, but that's not a tear down. Posters won't tell you you "great work, so your remaining Lovebusters are small problems to work on later." It sounds to me you want encouragement that you are doing good (admiration) even when you're not, rather than encouragement to do better.

And have you become transparent with your wife with the bank account and finances?

You complain she tells the story from her POV and not yours, yet you're ready to pack up and be silent. You're the only one that can explain your POV, here.

Ernie listen up - that was the wrong response. The RIGHT response was to change your offensive behavior, not run away.

The point is that if you are going to be abusive toward Elaina and not work to fix the problem (argue that it's not such a big problem or is really her fault, etc.), she needs to be protected from you. But the real solution to that is for you to learn to stop abusing her. Not to run away.

Get back here, ASAP.

Ernie, this is the worst excuse I've ever heard for bailing out and not doing the work to learn how to stop abusing your wife.

Nobody is going to ban you from this forum on my say so. Get back here ASAP.

All you need to do is learn to stop abusing your wife and arguing with her. This is not rocket science.

The question is are you willing to do it or not?

Not posting = not willing
Arguing with your wife when she complains = not willing

As long as you remain unengaged like this, your wife needs to be planning for a separation, because the clear message you are sending is that you have no control of yourself and are unable to stop abusing her and unable to learn how to stop.

Now personally I think you ARE able to learn how to stop. (After all, I was able to learn how, so I think you can do it, too.) So the real question is will you do it, or will you argue every time she complains about you doing it?

The only reasons I haven't been on here was because I haven't had time to read/post while at I have been at work this week, doing so at home could possibly make my wife upset, and I have been sick all week.

I am read up to about 1/3 of the way through LB book... Elaina and I discussed it the first couple of days. I haven't brought up any points the last few days (because I have been near exhaustion) and she never, ever, ever, asks me about it... or asks me about any other MB stuff.

You know, I had a really nice long response typed out, but what's the use. I give up.

If my wife were comes on here and says [edit: anything she wants, really....whether it actually happened that way or not] then what's the point of me being here?

I get beat up and attacked by her,
I get attacked by others who are sympathizing with her...

If I don't think she is honestly portraying what our home life is like accurately,
then I just don't see why I should be here because it's just making me upset.
I feel she is just not portraying events accurately or honestly.
Slam me for saying that, but it's how I feel.

I have been putting forth extraordinary effort to have a positive and peaceable home life with no AO's, no DJ's... I really have been.
I have pouring out all the extra energy I have to being the best I can be.

...but despite all that, I am continuously being made to feel (by her) that NO amount of effort, even the maximum amount, is enough effort.

At this point, I am beginning to feel like she is incapable of ever being satisfied by "us".

I WANT to keep having hope..
I really, really, really do...
but my wife continuously punishes me for the absolute tiniest of mistakes and expects from me far more than what I I feel like I can possibly give.

I am trying so hard..... Yet I am always being told I am failing at every turn.

I don't get it.

I don't really get the feeling anyone here wants to hear my POV. At least if that is the case, this is the first time I have noticed it.
Maybe I am wrong... but I am not feeling that.

"She said we had an argument, he wonders why she said that because no argument happened..."

I try really hard to avoid "she said, he said" narratives because it so seldom turns out positively in the end.

Maybe I am wrong about that too.

Yes, I am financially transparent... but my wife has never volunteered to share her bank account info with me, nor does she tell me what she is going to be spending that money on. But every day when I come home, there are new Arby's, Wendy's, Sonic, Taco Bell, etc. stuffs on the table and it bothers me... but I don't say anything about it.

She doesn't do this. She does not.
But she does expect me to know when I did. That is very unfair.
Maybe once every three months she will say something... which is incredibly unproductive.
If I can't see the target I will forever be shooting in the dark.


This is what kills me.
I�ll never hear about it 97% of the time, even if there is a realization later.


That is untrue; I do not do this.
I am very considerate of what my wife has to say, in the rare cases she does tell me what is going on.


I don't do anything (in this present age) that resembles a �rampage�. Maybe last year, yes � but not recently.


In the past this was true, but not anymore.


Her letters often are not productive at all.
They are usually accusatory, full of blame, threatening, and belittling.



OK, I am not an inconsiderate person like "Ed" in Steve's example. I am always apologetic when I do something wrong: If I am aware of what I did, I apologize - - and if I find out later about something I did but had no idea what I did was wrong, I apologize for it when the issue has been brought to my attention... but only If/when it has been brought to my attention, which is very very seldom.

I do not tell Elaina "she shouldn't feel hurt". Though I have in the past (guilty as "Ed" was) I do not continue in that behavior.

I printed this off:
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8114_plan.html

I am going to carry a copy everywhere I go and read it 10 times a day!

Things have to to be getting better...

Glad you're back. Are you going to stick with it?

1. You decide if you want to rid yourself of Lovebusters. She doesn't need to ask you what you learned today from the book in order for you to take it to heart and change how you treat her.

2. The way you feel home life is like is different than how we feels. It's disrespectful to say she is wrong and dishonest about how it is from her point of view. Respect her point of view and ask what you can do to make life better.

3. As Markos said, you don't get kudos for protecting your wife from Lovebusters. You eliminate them because you care, and get kudos and admiration for sustained meeting of your wife's emotional needs.

4. Another DJ.

5. How does she punish you? That may be a lovebuster that she can work on eliminating (but factual complaints or statements about what make her unhappy are not Lovebusters).

The key is to learn to express your point of view in a way that is not demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

For example, tell Elaina that it bothers you for her to be spending the money on fast food. I'm sure she is willing to negotiate a new solution with you that will make you both happy. This is a great issue to practice on. I'm sure she is willing to stop buying these things that you are not enthusiastic about until an alternative is found.

Don't tell her that she "shouldn't" be buying these things - that would be disrespectful. Don't let the conversation be about right and wrong, good and bad, at all. Just the fact that doing this bothers you.

Now, if your point of view in general is that Elaina shouldn't complain, you need to understand that this choice is what leads to unhappy, incompatible marriages. In good marriages husbands and wives complain to each other when there is a problem - respectfully, non-demandingly, and without an angry outburst.

The problem most of us have when we get here is that we see only two choices: either don't talk about things that bother us, or become demanding, disrespectful, or angry about it. But that's a false choice, because those are not your only choices. If you want a good marriage, you'll both have to learn to give and receive complaints without being demanding, disrespectful, or angry.

So, express your point of view - just not in a way that is disrespectful to your wife. Don't say anything that suggests that she is wrong to feel the way she does or that she is taking something too seriously. That is disrespectful. If she feels there is a problem, you'll both need to work together to find a solution. Let her know your point of view. For example, if there's something you do and it bothers her, talk about what benefit you are receiving from doing it, so that together you can find something to do instead.

It's not a matter of portraying anything accurately. What needs to be understood is her feelings, and your feelings. If she feels you are disrespectful, that is true and it is vitally important that you stop doing anything that she feels is disrespectful.

Read very closely through the Selfish Demands, Disrespectful Judgments, and Angry Outbursts chapters of Love Busters, and you'll see how Dr. Harley makes it clear that you need to let your spouse determine what is disrespectful or not - if she says it is, it is, and you'll need to change it if you want her to be happy.

Your wife is very capable of being happy - if you'll stop the things that are making her feel unhappy.

When was the last time you re-read this thread from beginning to end?

Great. But be sure to let her be the judge of that. You may still be doing it sometimes without realizing. You need to find out accurately what things you might be saying or doing that she feels are disrespectful or dismissive toward her feelings, and you'll need to stop all of them.

There are several recent examples. For example, when you were posting that she was taking things too seriously, or not seriously enough. That was not that long ago. If you stop everything like that and keep it stopped, you'll find that it will become possible to make your wife happy.

Ernie, remember that points of view are subjective. Her opinion of the marriage and home life is different than yours. It's neither right nor wrong. Obviously you see things differently. Your viewpoint isn't right or wrong, it's simply different.

We're not here to beat anyone up. We're here to help give you the skills to create a beret marriage. Often becoming better and improvement is difficult and uncomfortable. But this isn't some middle school where people pick on each other. We have better things to do with our time. If what we say is direct and to the point it's because we want to get to the point.

Stop expecting high fives and congratulations for doing what you're supposed to be doing. When most of us go to work, we don't get high praises for showing up on time ands keeping to deadlines. We do get reprimanded for not doing what we're supposed to do.

The question is are you willing to do what it takes to have a successful marriage? Of you are and you do, she will follow suit

Ernie,

There is disagreement between what your wife says and what you say about transparency in finances. Are all your pay stubs there for her to see? Does all your useable income go into a joint account that she has full access to, including all transactions? If not, this doesn't help in providing an atmosphere of safety, care, and partnership in your marriage. This is something you could easily and quickly fix and would show good will on your part.

I had payroll set so $1200 (same every month) went into our joint account, and the remaining $231 or so went into my old account where I could pay my student loan from ($88) as well as three previous credit cards: One card I used regularly for us eating out and gifts, one I used never (just paying it down) and one I only used sparingly, like when it was just the two of us at a fast food joint (less than $50 a month). I pay for all our land taxes, vehicle maintenance, bicycle maintenance, the Lowe's card (most of the time)& and all other household/yard expenses from what ever is left. Once in a while there has been a few hundred extra if I got some overtime hours, but since all I ever feel when it comes to finances is give give give give give give give give give give (not a stuck keyboard), then I let my taker have that last little bit left for me... and I don't blow it on fast food either.

My paystubs have never been a secret I was hiding from her. When she asks to see, I go find one. Most of the time I forgot it was in my pocket by the time I got home, so I seldom bothered to take the time to show her since we talked about (and knew) how much I am making.

This has been a HUGE deal for me: She complains about money for groceries, yet she buys tons of junk food and other crap I am NOT enthusiastic about buying! There is no good reason to come home with 4 cans of Pringles that will be gone in 2 days, or 20 frozen pizzas... or expensive sliced deli meats and cheese that just go bad and get thrown out (yep,I am still upset about that).

We have PLENTY each month for food ($1100 to mortgage, $60 water, $400/month to gas/insurance leaves $840 a month that gets blown on junk food and fast food). I eat ramen noodles for lunch because I am trying to cut expenses.

I balk every time she complains about money because all I see is a steady stream of junk, waste, and fast food. The kids constantly prepare meals, eat a little bit and waste the rest. I am forbidden to say anything about it to them, and she thinks its no big deal so she lets it continue.

I have always maintained the position if I see those things improve some, then I would be more open about finances.


You are 100% correct, and it goes back to when we first got married... I bought an expensive ring, most of the wedding (both our parents helped some), a nice big house for all of us to live in, all of the expenses to get her and her kids moved into the house, and a honeymoon. My cash savings were wiped to ZERO, and A lot of this went on credit cards. We talked about money and I felt she was very much in agreeance that we need to be frugal for a while to get caught up.

This is one of the very biggest hurts for me I never got over. She was a non-working single mom living on savings, child support, food stamps, and her mom, from Jan 2008 until early 2010 (when we were getting ready to get married). Her step-dad told me how she is amazing with money: "she can take whatever small amount she has stretch it to the limits and make it go as far as she can." This was exceedingly encouraging to me since I value a sensible lifestyle with occasional luxuries (like fast food, which I seldom ate before we were married) and not living in excess every day, and that pretty much how she lived as well. I thought we were a pretty good match at that time.

Since we got married, I have been made to feel like she married me for my money at times. (I was making about 50K and she knew this going in). Starting off early in our marriage, I wanted us to stress frugality until we got caught up, but all I could see was the constant flow of money and the overdrafts each month (numerous). I admit I was COMPLETELY unaware of how much money things were going to cost.. this caught me totally off guard and made me throw the brakes on, and they have been locked down since.

All of this could have been avoided so easily if the immediate post-marriage spending spree had never occurred. I have screen shots of bank statements saved from back then that show $250-$300 withdrawls every few DAYS!!!! That was the breaking point for me, and I have been very upset about how money is being handled ever since then. I was expecting frugality and felt she was on board wit that philosophy, but the statements were all proving otherwise.

She gets $945 a month from child support, and $260-$320 of it goes to electricity, which I think is completely fair because she can control how much juice we use from the kids leaving the lights on in every room all day, and constantly heating frozen pizzas in the electric oven (in the summer, when the A/C is already full tilt). I know for a fact she uses our Discover card to buy groceries because I see the statements. From all visual indicators, the best I can tell is she spends the other $600 on junk food and fast food. Add in the other $800 from our joint account, and what I get is about $1400 a month (give or take) being spent on absolute junk. The only exception to this has been some books for her son's classes.

I want to discuss a budget... but it's hard.
I finally feel like we have got our "normal" or "Joint account" spending levels down to a reasonable and manageable level... meaning no over drafts, bills are all paid, and we still get to eat out some for occasions like date night and after church.

I haven't ever been adamant about knowing what she spends her child support money on because I felt it was her money, and I didn't want to seem controlling about it. I have always figured that if she has all that money to spend as she pleases, then WHY would she be concerned about the little extra I might have each month?

OH, and since I keep such a small amount for myself, I spend this money very very frugally. Most of the time, it's actually things we need for around our property anyway!! Like fencing supplies, chainsaw and firewood cutting supplies, sewer drainfield pipe, etc. etc. I don't buy any of that with our "joint" money. I even bought the rear tires on her Caravan with "my" money and not "our" money.

So having to hear her complain about money when I all see is waste, waste and more waste makes me want to not talk about it.

Can you talk about it without namecalling words like "waste"? That is disrespectful. When she buys something you don't like, just say it bothers you to spend money that way. Don't use disrespect to get your point across. That will make it impossible to ever discuss the subject. Or any problems at all.

Also, don't use terms like "fair." There is no "fair" and "unfair." There is only things that both of you are enthusiastic about, and things that only one of you are enthusiastic about.

If you will stick with this program, we can help you learn to discuss these problems successfully.

Is there transparency? Is she able to see where every dollar goes?

Okay, now, you've got a conflict to work out.

You can talk to your wife and apologize for how you've behaved about finances, and you would like to work it out in a way that makes you both happy. You can start by letting her know your paystubs will be sent to your home mailbox so you can both look over and discuss finances and to combine incomes into one shared account.

You can then read and print out the materials from Dr. Harley about finances and budget. She writes out all that she needs and wants and approximate cost. You do the same. Then you two start negotiating, with respect and care. No "you gotta be kidding," or "that's wasteful," or anything of the sort. Make the whole process caring and respectful. All the guidance about how to do this is in this website and in Dr. Harley's books.

Have you seen these?
How to Resolve Financial Conflicts and Keep Love in Your Marriage #1
How to Resolve Financial Conflicts and Keep Love in Your Marriage #2

Ernie:

#1: Even if all you have said is 100% true, why do you feal Elaina is not capable of understanding math?

By your own account you have not shared the information with her that she would need to have in order to make sound spending decisions.

#2:

In a one-earner household, the earner must take extraordinary precaution and care to not use the fact that they are the earner to force the other partner to cede power.

Either you both acknowledge that each's involvement is 100% as important as the others, or you negotiate for a solution where that sentiment is agreed by both.

#3: By your own account, you seem to really be withholding information in order to even what you perceive to be an old wrong, but it really seems like it was a lack of information.

Here's something I learned from a wise old man: Before you seek revenge, first dig two graves.

Even if everything you say is true, you are not treating her like an equal. Almost more like a child.